Performance loss for running JEDEC ram?

[Garak]

This is a question I'm struggling to find answers to. I care most of all about stability and would rather follow JEDEC standards if at all possible

 

DDR4-1600 (PC4-12800) DDR4-1866 (PC4-14900) DDR4-2133 (PC4-17000) DDR4-2400 (PC4-19200) DDR4-2666 (PC4-21333) DDR4-2933 (PC4-23466) DDR4-3200 (PC4-25600) At 1.2v.   Finding JEDEC ram is a mission in itself, but I have found some.   https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08C53LL9J/   Curious how much performance I can expect (even ballpark figure) to lose on my i5 11400f compared to a XMP kit with lower timings. Anyone know?

[WereCat]

JEDEC uses very loose timings so it's not very ideal. Heck, many server kits run much faster than JEDEC. I don't really see any reason why you should stick to JEDEC. 

If you care about stability so much then you should opt for ECC memory in the first place. 

[Garak]

2 minutes ago, WereCat said:

JEDEC uses very loose timings so it's not very ideal. Heck, many server kits run much faster than JEDEC. I don't really see any reason why you should stick to JEDEC. 

If you care about stability so much then you should opt for ECC memory in the first place. 

Yeah with the 1 AMD board that supports and none of the intel boards doing so? Come on man.

[Dedayog]

2 minutes ago, Garak said:

Yeah with the 1 AMD board that supports and none of the intel boards doing so? Come on man.

What's wrong with regular consumer RAM?  I've had no instability in RAM over the years.  What worries you so much?

[Garak]

2 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

What's wrong with regular consumer RAM?  I've had no instability in RAM over the years.  What worries you so much?

I have a friend telling me it puts a strain on the memory controller, and that if I care about longevity I shouldn't use as you put it, consumer ram. I'm a bit conflicted personally.

[WereCat]

8 minutes ago, Garak said:

Yeah with the 1 AMD board that supports and none of the intel boards doing so? Come on man.

I'm just saying that if you're so desperate for stability, you're on the wrong platform. 

There is more to the RAM performance than just timings and clocks but if you want your answer... I can assure you that you will at the very least lose 10% preformance, probably more. 

 

And if your i5 is running on a low-end board you may already lose another 20% of performance just because of the motherboard in which case the RAM choice is the least of your worries. 

 

 

Anyways, if you really care that much about stability and you have to stick to whatever HW you use right now, then no matter what RAM you buy, the first thing you do is do an extensive RAM stability test lasting for many hours (RAM Test from Kahru Software for example). Because otherwise you will never be sure if your RAM is stable even if it has very lose timings. 

Sticking to JEDEC makes very little sense. 

[Garak]

1 minute ago, WereCat said:

And if your i5 is running on a low-end board you may already lose another 20% of performance just because of the motherboard in which case the RAM choice is the least of your worries. 

The board should be OK if it's anything like the B560M version. But if you see any issues with it I can still return it. https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-H570-PRO-WIFI

 

What ram would you recommend then as a half way point?

[Dedayog]

4 minutes ago, Garak said:

I have a friend telling me it puts a strain on the memory controller, and that if I care about longevity I shouldn't use as you put it, consumer ram. I'm a bit conflicted personally.

Interesting, I have never heard that.  This "strain" is it what causes early Ryzen CPU's to not be able to use higher frequency RAM?

 

Does he offer any proof or support of this?

 

Does my almost 35 years of no issues with RAM offset his opinion in any way?

[Garak]

Just now, Dedayog said:

Interesting, I have never heard that.  This "strain" is it what causes early Ryzen CPU's to not be able to use higher frequency RAM?

 

Does he offer any proof or support of this?

 

Does my 25 years of no issues with RAM offset his opinion in any way?

He's an older guy he had issues with consumer stuff in the past, he runs ECC ram, and pretty much universally agreed with WereCat's post when I showed him it.

[WereCat]

10 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

Interesting, I have never heard that.  This "strain" is it what causes early Ryzen CPU's to not be able to use higher frequency RAM?

 

Does he offer any proof or support of this?

 

Does my almost 35 years of no issues with RAM offset his opinion in any way?

XMP is an OC, meaning that if XMP RAM runs at higher speed than the CPU manufacturer officially recommended spec, it counts as an OC as the memory controller may put in some extra work. 

But honestly, in most cases it doesn't matter at all and if the XMP is unstable it's a result of a bad automatic tuning from the motherboard side, mostly fixable manually by user if he's willing to tinker. 

 

11 minutes ago, Garak said:

The board should be OK if it's anything like the B560M version. But if you see any issues with it I can still return it. https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-H570-PRO-WIFI

 

What ram would you recommend then as a half way point?

Board seems fine. I recommend checking the memory QVL for that board and picking something from that based on price and availability with the least hassle.  The higher speed and lower latency, the more performance. 

 

If you want a recommendation... 

I have great experience with Crucial, never had an issue with them on multiple platforms. 

On the other hand I see people with constant issues using Corsair Vengeance, I don't have a personal experience with those but every day I see at least 5 post here when their XMP doesn't work. 

 

edit:

damn you mobile autocorrect 

[Garak]

1 minute ago, WereCat said:

XMP is an OC, meaning that if XMP RAM runs at higher speed than the CPU manufacturer officially recommended spec, it counts as an OC as the memory controller may put in some extra work. 

But honestly, in most cases it doesn't matter at all and if the XMP is unstable it's a result of a bad automatic tuning from the motherboard side, mostly fixable manually by user if he's willing to tinker. 

 

Board seems fine. I recommend checking the memory QVL for that board and picking something from that based on price and availability with the least hassle.  The higher speed and lower latency, the more performance. 

 

If you want a reconnection... 

I have great experience with Crucial, never had an issue with them in multiple platforms. 

On the other hand I see people with constant issues using Corsair Vengeance, I don't have a personal experience with those but every day I see at least 5 post here when their XMP doesn't work. 

 

 

I've had issues with Corsair ram myself (a long time ago) so I'm actively avoiding them, and had a really bad RMA process about a year ago so all the more reason to. The Crucial ram I was looking at doesn't seem to be in the QVL list for whatever reason? Too risky to chance? It's quite cheap compared to everything else.

 

Don't suppose you could recommend a cooler for the 11400f while you're at it? 

[WereCat]

32 minutes ago, Garak said:

I've had issues with Corsair ram myself (a long time ago) so I'm actively avoiding them, and had a really bad RMA process about a year ago so all the more reason to. The Crucial ram I was looking at doesn't seem to be in the QVL list for whatever reason? Too risky to chance? It's quite cheap compared to everything else.

 

Don't suppose you could recommend a cooler for the 11400f while you're at it? 

This RAM is cheaper and faster

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-Ballistix-BL2K8G32C16U4B-Desktop-Gaming/dp/B083TRRT16/ref=sr_1_3?crid=9F7IGO9E13QF&dchild=1&keywords=crucial+ballistix+16gb+ddr4+3200&qid=1626989746&s=computers&sprefix=crucial+ballistix+16gb%2Ccomputers%2C170&sr=1-3

 

I looked at the QVL and it seems to be very minimal but I wouldn't really worry, they list  the much faster Crucial Elite 4000MT/s as compatible so this should work just fine as it's much easier to run. Crucial DRAM also tends to put less strain on IMC as it uses high secondary timings on their E-die.

 

 

Regarding cooling, I honestly have no idea what case you have and what price point you're looking at.

Despite the stupid name this is actually quite a good cooler for the price if you can fit it in your case.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCTIC-Freezer-eSports-DUO-Configuration/dp/B07MJGNJB3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1L97PISRG0GBY&dchild=1&keywords=arctic+esports+34+duo&qid=1626990177&sprefix=arctic+e%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1

[Garak]

Thanks @WereCat I appreciate it. I was originally considering Noctua U12A, but if the cooler you linked will do the job that's a much cheaper option for sure. I don't want to needlessly spend money if I don't have to.

 

This is the case I have if you're curious. https://lian-li.com/product/lancool-ii-mesh/

[WereCat]

9 hours ago, Garak said:

Thanks @WereCat I appreciate it. I was originally considering Noctua U12A, but if the cooler you linked will do the job that's a much cheaper option for sure. I don't want to needlessly spend money if I don't have to.

 

This is the case I have if you're curious. https://lian-li.com/product/lancool-ii-mesh/

I had the NH-U12A cooler and honestly, it's really bad for the price. I ended up selling it. This Arctic one is very similar while costing 1/3 of the the price. The Arctic fans are also similar in noise and performance, maybe they won't last as long as the Noctua ones but you can buy multiple replacements and it will end up being cheaper.

Case looks good.

[Garak]

2 hours ago, WereCat said:

I had the NH-U12A cooler and honestly, it's really bad for the price. I ended up selling it. This Arctic one is very similar while costing 1/3 of the the price. The Arctic fans are also similar in noise and performance, maybe they won't last as long as the Noctua ones but you can buy multiple replacements and it will end up being cheaper.

Case looks good.

The Arctic one and the Sycthe Fuma 2 look the best out of these cheaper coolers from what I'm seeing. Arctic still quite a bit cheaper than the Fuma 2. I'll try it. It's definitely worth a shot at that price. I do like the Noctua's but you're certainly paying a premium for it and not always for better performance. If I was 100% sure I'd use it in a future build it might make sense, but there's no guarantee it will even work on future sockets and considering the last time I built a PC was over 7 years ago...

[WereCat]

12 minutes ago, Garak said:

The Arctic one and the Sycthe Fuma 2 look the best out of these cheaper coolers from what I'm seeing. Arctic still quite a bit cheaper than the Fuma 2. I'll try it. It's definitely worth a shot at that price. I do like the Noctua's but you're certainly paying a premium for it and not always for better performance. If I was 100% sure I'd use it in a future build it might make sense, but there's no guarantee it will even work on future sockets and considering the last time I built a PC was over 7 years ago...

Yeah, the Noctua NH-U12A only makes sense if you really like Noctua and want better compatibility with the other components in your case.

For the price of that cooler even even Noctua competes with itself as the NH-D15 will outperform the NH-U12 easily while being more silent and often even cheaper.