Right To Repair Gaining Steam

[CynicalTech]

 

Summary

 It seems the right to repair is finally making progress nationwide as the FTC is starting to study new regulations limiting the power of tech and various other companies. By forcing these companies to make parts and software available it will foster competition and lower repair prices.

 

Quotes

Quote

"Manufacturers, be warned: It's time to clean up your act and let people fix their stuff," said Nathan Proctor, senior campaign director for the group's right to repair initiative, in a statement.

 

My thoughts

 As an automotive and tech enthusiast, i have been forced to find non sanctioned ways of repairing cars and electronics especially once parts are not available or no longer produced. I as well as many others in the enthusiast communities will be happy to have the ability to repair their own stuff.

 

Sources

 The FTC vows to 'root out' illegal repair restrictions on phones, fridges, tractors and more (msn.com)

FTC considers limiting restrictions on repairing devices - Axios

[Forbidden Wafer]

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

[Taf the Ghost]

Technically, it started gaining steam years ago. Once the weird Tractors & iPhones alliance got rolling. That was the key point. What we're seeing the culmination of all of the work as the preference cascade approaches. It's good to see, and congrats to all of the people that put in the work to get it this far.

[YoungBlade]

10 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Technically, it started gaining steam years ago. Once the weird Tractors & iPhones alliance got rolling. That was the key point. What we're seeing the culmination of all of the work as the preference cascade approaches. It's good to see, and congrats to all of the people that put in the work to get it this far.

I'm just imagining someone 50 years from now in a business law class hearing "In the early 2000s, consumer advocates - primarily farmers and tech enthusiasts - pushed for the FTC to end restrictions on acquiring spare parts for products such as tractors and smart phones" and suddenly paying attention for a second because of the seeming absurdity of that statement.

[Monkey Dust]

23 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

Presumably the cells can be replaced? Otherwise, it will get expensive for them if a load of batteries brick themselves in warranty.

 

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

Presumably the cells can be replaced? Otherwise, it will get expensive for them if a load of batteries brick themselves in warranty.

I don't think so. They tried charging a dude 16k for a new battery instead of replacing a broken nozzle of the battery pack.

 

[Taf the Ghost]

49 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

I'm just imagining someone 50 years from now in a business law class hearing "In the early 2000s, consumer advocates - primarily farmers and tech enthusiasts - pushed for the FTC to end restrictions on acquiring spare parts for products such as tractors and smart phones" and suddenly paying attention for a second because of the seeming absurdity of that statement.

You, my friend, have not come across possibly the greatest "how did that happen" alliance. I give you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists

 

Alliances like this are actually fairly common, if you go looking for them. (It's part of the functional way Sports are big business.) It's when multiple groups have an interest in the same "net outcome". Also a reason why, if you want to kill a movement that risks your business interests, making it completely partisan is a great trick. Or an un-intended Self-own. 

[Monkey Dust]

1 hour ago, comander said:

Structural batteries have a legitimate engineering purpose. They reduce weight/increase battery power because you can combine two parts into one.

 

This is BIG if you care about range. Also, I suspect that the structural batteries will last longer (skimming, I see talk of 1,000,000 mile batteries - that's 25,000 miles a year for 40 years [I averaged ~4000/year when I drove, so I'd have ~250 years]) as they can effectively dissipate heat into the structure of the car. They're not necessarily optimized to store a lot of power - just to be better than the "dead weight" used to make sure the car is structurally sound. 

 

I can live with a vehicle being limited to length of my career. 
I do suspect it'll be less viable later on but... ehh, a product slowing down when I'm retired... 

 

 

I might be out of my wheelhouse here but the cells are integrated INTO the structure. It's very likely that it's not feasible to swap out "just the cells" - they're integrated into the structure and provide structural support. There might be a future where they effectively latch in, but for now... they're BUILT into the structure and NEED to be. They're basically swapping out aluminum for batteries and using the batteries to support the weight of the car and the stress of driving. 

 

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/a-sneak-peek-at-teslas-new-structural-battery-pack/

 

"Now Electrek has got hold of a picture of Tesla’s new structural battery pack. It’s based on a honeycomb architecture, which is known for high strength and low weight, and has been used for various applications in the aerospace and automotive fields. The new pack does not use modules—apparently, Tesla’s new 4680 battery cells will be inserted directly into the structural cells of the honeycomb. Coolant loops snake around the sides of the pack.

“Battery pack will be a bonded structure with cells providing shear transfer between steel upper and lower face sheets, eliminating most of the center body parts while providing better torsional rigidity and improved polar moment or inertia,” said Elon Musk. “This is a major breakthrough.”"

 

Wow that sounds like a car with a short life expectancy.

[Brooksie359]

4 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

But isn't that actually the case? I thought the battery was a part of the chassis which allowed them to get a really high safety rating. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp29117057/tesla-model-3-iihs-top-safety-pick-plus/

[CynicalTech]

in my mind this poses another possibly very serious problem of destructibility. we've all seen the teslas. or any battery powered car that crashes has a tendency to burn for a very long time. we have also seen teslas failing too unlock or the inability for passengers to get out of a crashed tesla. if the batteries are integrated into the frame and structure of the vehicle wouldn't that make them more likely to burst into flames in the event of a crash?

[GDRRiley]

46 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

But isn't that actually the case? I thought the battery was a part of the chassis which allowed them to get a really high safety rating. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp29117057/tesla-model-3-iihs-top-safety-pick-plus/

to be fair IIHS tests need major updates. almost everything scores at the top

 

4 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

I don't think so. They tried charging a dude 16k for a new battery instead of replacing a broken nozzle of the battery pack.

the bad pack would have gone back and gotten fixed at the factory and then used as a replacement pack for someone else, it should have been a 200$ fix

[12345678]

there are several ways to limit repairs by third parties

 

even if they managed to pass a legislation where manufacturers are forced to give out schematics and parts, that would likely not solve the issue.

[RejZoR]

20 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

Even when battery pack was actually a pack bolted on the bottom of the car, removing it was a huge project. You had to lift the car, remove all the protective paneling, unplug the high power cables from the pack and then drop some 500kg pack down from the car without dropping it and setting entire shop in flames if you damage the pack.

 

But yeah, everyone wants comfy cars where batteries don't intrude into passenger space (especially floor) and then they break apart the battery pack and stick the batteries all over the chassis.

[Forbidden Wafer]

25 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Even when battery pack was actually a pack bolted on the bottom of the car, removing it was a huge project.

Huge project != dismantling the entire car, as Tesla itself showed in the past.

 

[RejZoR]

49 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Huge project != dismantling the entire car, as Tesla itself showed in the past.

 

Afaik, that was proof of concept prepared car and not how actual Tesla cars are designed.

[Forbidden Wafer]

55 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Afaik, that was proof of concept prepared car and not how actual Tesla cars are designed.

That is my point: he clearly says it could be designed to be easily swapped in a charging station with no manual operation, and shows that it works.
Yet the cars sold are literally going to be built onto the battery pack themselves, preventing replacement/maintenance.

It is not bad design, it is outrageous design. If this is the future of electric vehicles, I hope they die as soon as possible.

[RejZoR]

4 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

That is my point: he clearly says it could be designed to be easily swapped in a charging station with no manual operation, and shows that it works.
Yet the cars sold are literally going to be built onto the battery pack themselves, preventing replacement/maintenance.

It is not bad design, it is outrageous design. If this is the future of electric vehicles, I hope they die as soon as possible.

"Could be"

[Brooksie359]

20 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

to be fair IIHS tests need major updates. almost everything scores at the top

 

the bad pack would have gone back and gotten fixed at the factory and then used as a replacement pack for someone else, it should have been a 200$ fix

I had thought they said the model 3 got the highest score they had ever given though. Being number 1 is pretty impressive.

[Forbidden Wafer]

26 minutes ago, comander said:

Having ~20-40% of your vehicles power built into the vehicle isn't the end of the world, provided it's designed to more or less match the life expectancy of a vehicle (1 million miles is the current estimate). You can still have conventional (including solid state) batteries that are swappable and more focused on cost/energy density.

 

The unlikely, worst case scenario a 30 year old car might only have a 200 mile range (enough for an Uber/Lyft driver to do their daily job with maybe a 60 minute charge during a lunch break), which is enough for A LOT of use cases (80 mile commute each way without charging or a 150 mile commute if you can charge at work). This assumes that new replacement batteries aren't more energy dense in 30 years, in which case, you end up with more range than when the car was new.

It is not 20~40%. It is 100%. You're considering normal battery wear, not damage like the nozzle one that prevented the car from working as it should and they tried charging 16k to fix with a *removable battery*. If it was part of the car, they would have pushed a new car, which is completely absurd.

[Quackers101]

one of the EU vice-president of EU commission for a europe fit for a digital age.

Respons to Louis rossmann, and the meeting between EU and Tim Cook.

Which was a bit too late and clarify to like the view or has a similar goal with Louis on Right To Repair.

 

Also stated, that they might bring something up next year, that might be proposed for the EU?

Hopefully not like an "all USB-C" thing again, but an overall better relationship with parts, creation of parts, making the use of similar parts that users can use to fix their or replace for those products. Instead of buying fake products to hurt right to repair, get the supplier to supply the common people with the parts needed for repair. Of course having some verification of a repair shop could be a nice to have for bigger purchases, both in qualifications and not limited to a specific company. also if scared of fraud or re-selling? other systems can be in place?

 

[RejZoR]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:54 PM, Forbidden Wafer said:

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

Yeah, but Tesla batteries are powered by "MAGIC" and they don't degrade and you never need to replace them! They all talk how amazing and easy it is to swap batteries in cars and yet they are making it harder and harder.

[StDragon]

On 7/22/2021 at 5:03 PM, Monkey Dust said:

Wow that sounds like a car with a short life expectancy.

It sure is once you wreck the car to the point of compromising structural integrity and battery safety. At that point, I'm sure the car would be totaled.

 

Which all begs the question; how much will insurance rates go up because of this design?

[leadeater]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:54 AM, Forbidden Wafer said:

This reminds me of the new structural battery of Tesla. Want to replace your battery? Replace the entire freaking car, because the battery pack is part of the chassis.

For now I don't really disagree with that. There's a good amount of weight efficiency and total capacity efficiency with doing that. Once we can go past the sort of typical long distance ranges where you'd have to stop and rest with actually serviceable and replicable battery packs then I'd change my view on this.

 

However that said would be nice if cars with integrated chassis batteries were designed in mind for accommodating a battery swap to such a pack of an agreed industry standard size so when the technology is there you can put in such a battery.

[Forbidden Wafer]

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

For now I don't really disagree with that.

Considering they currently replace the entire battery pack if a stupid cooling nozzle breaks, now they would replace the entire car. 
Not consumer friendly, not eco friendly, not repair friendly. Its a completely stupid approach to engineering.
Considering most cars get used for 10+ years, I'm in favor of banning this kind of unrepairable stuff.

[leadeater]

9 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Considering they currently replace the entire battery pack if a stupid cooling nozzle breaks, now they would replace the entire car. 
Not consumer friendly, not eco friendly, not repair friendly. Its a completely stupid approach to engineering.
Considering most cars get used for 10+ years, I'm in favor of banning this kind of unrepairable stuff.

I'm not talking about Tesla specifically. This wouldn't stop being able to repair at all so long as what I said, a compartment for an additional or replacement battery system when they are capable of doing the range required compactly and actually in a way that can be replaced practically.

 

Right now no car can have it's battery replaced, the technology isn't there. Engineering demos isn't the same thing as being able to be implemented in mass market and neither do I consider 500kg battery systems as practically replicable. Not only does the weight alone exclude almost all service centers being able to do such a thing so you'd be forced to 1st party service centers, only ones that could do it too, but the car chassis has to be built so much around the battery it's pointless to think about future replacement anyway.

 

By the time the battery is really a problem the tech is so far past the design of your car nothing will be able to be installed in to it. Unless there is an industry standard battery size and connector developed this entire debate is meaningless, battery swaps are never going to be a thing without that.

 

Chassis integrated battery in no way prevents repair, they aren't the only battery contained in the vehicle and it doesn't prevent bypassing them when they are no longer usable.

 

My 2011 Nissan Leaf with a 24kwh battery still is perfectly usable, current batteries are both vastly better and also much higher capacity. There are also 3rd party battery swaps I could do to get a 40kwh pack installed but it's more costly than buying an entire another Leaf, by 3 times more than I brought the damn thing originally. I'd rather buy 3 used cars each subsequently newer model years each time with the tech advancements that come with that than spend triple on a battery for an old car, it's literally illogical thing to do.

 

Also engineering wise chassis integrated batteries is the best, every metric you could measure it engineering wise would be superior than not doing so. Why waste weight and vehicle volume when you could use it for battery capacity, that's needless increase in vehicle weight therefore increase in battery size, and weight again, increasing overall energy usage.

 

You're only looking it as an all or nothing, that's rather flawed. Chassis integrated batteries prevents nothing.