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Amazon's mmo New World is bricking 3090 gpus

49 minutes ago, grg994 said:

Here is a picture of a fried EVGA 3090 (https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/mmo-new-world-(closed-beta)-is-killing-geforce-rtx-3090-graphics-cards

-snip-
The visible damage is in the where I marked on this pcb layout. That component should be a fuse on one of the 12V lines, connected directly after the rightmost 8pin.

Yeah, that'll do it.

 

2 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Buildzoid said they at least protected the rest of the components by doing that. Other OEMs don't include the fuse and blow up the VRM/GPU die.

Looking at that picture the board is dead regardless.

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6 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Looking at that picture the board is dead regardless.

Not necessarily. Louis have shown several macbook mobos with gigantic holes blown up by Thunderbolt working. e.g.

 

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12 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Buildzoid said they at least protected the rest of the components by doing that.

True, but the PCB is probably a goner, and manufacturers don't really unsolder parts afaik

Maybe the GPU core? Idk, I'd wager that they'd just junk it after analysing it

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17 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Buildzoid said they at least protected the rest of the components by doing that. Other OEMs don't include the fuse and blow up the VRM/GPU die.

This is true, but I'm confused by seeing that:

 

Is this really how a popped fuse of that type should look like on a circuit board?

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6 minutes ago, grg994 said:

Is this really how a popped fuse of that type should look like on a circuit board?

I'm not really sure, but I do think something went wrong other than the fuse. Maybe it didn't break the connection completely and created an arc that melted everything, or it got hot enough to melt the resin letting traces short (e.g. fuse with wrong rating). 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, grg994 said:

Is this really how a popped fuse of that type should look like on a circuit board?

No. If a fuse like that blows it might not even have visible signs of damage, you would use a multimeter to measure continuity across the fuse to check that it's still working. No continuity = fuse blown. It might also look damaged/burnt but no damage to the nearby board. Then you could easily desolder the blown fuse and replace it with a new one (though usually there's a problem elsewhere which caused the fuse to blow in the first place, so you would need to address that first).

My guess is on the card in that photo the fuse blew open but it just arced across the open fuse, causing the damage you see to the board. 🤷‍♂️

Edited by Spotty

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Whilst we have no idea yet if this is the failure mode for the majority of affected GPU's, if it is it raises all kinds of issues.

 

1. Why did the board get a hole blown in it. The voltage shouldn't go much above or below 12v since this is PSU feed, and arcing is voltage based. The only thing i can think of is a really odd fuse failure mode of some kind that made it blow up or only partially fail. But that then raises the question what it was and what triggered it.

 

2. How did the cards pull that much current. These fuses are generally rated with OC'ing in mind, i doubt everyone involved was raising the voltage on their cards, and without that the card shouldn't have been able to pull enough to blow the fuse. So WTH is happening here exactly.

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Posted (edited)

My worry is that if a computer program can be written that will physically damage a computer it will be.  Even if it’s ridiculously difficult and the damage is only slight.  Many years ago it was determined that it was impossible to physically hurt someone through the internet and the best that could be done was emotional hurt so people settled on hiding the most horrible images they could find inside innocuous things. 😐

 

Of course deliberate misinformation hadn’t come up yet.    There’s always something worse.  If there is a way to damage a machine through code it won’t just be something that happens.  It will become something that is hard to avoid.

Edited by Bombastinator

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6 hours ago, joaopt said:

Not sure how that proves that other cards than FTW3 died because of the New Worlds bug.

 

Again, I've supplied links showing people had the same issue but didn't have a FTW3. I never said there wasn't an issue with EVGA GPUs specifically. All I said is that calling people (that mention there are other GPUs that have the issue) liars is rather disingenuous when there's proof it does affect other GPUs than the FTW3.

 

AGAIN ; the fact that other GPUs are affected by that bug doesn't mean that EVGA is clear of any wrong doing with their designs, I've never argued that and even mentioned the GPUs other than the FTW3 that have died might have died anyway because of other issues.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Whilst we have no idea yet if this is the failure mode for the majority of affected GPU's, if it is it raises all kinds of issues.

 

1. Why did the board get a hole blown in it. The voltage shouldn't go much above or below 12v since this is PSU feed, and arcing is voltage based. The only thing i can think of is a really odd fuse failure mode of some kind that made it blow up or only partially fail. But that then raises the question what it was and what triggered it.

 

2. How did the cards pull that much current. These fuses are generally rated with OC'ing in mind, i doubt everyone involved was raising the voltage on their cards, and without that the card shouldn't have been able to pull enough to blow the fuse. So WTH is happening here exactly.

That hole creeped the hell out of me too.  It appears to be where the fuse was supposed to be which implied the thing exploded.  That’s exactly what fuses ARENT supposed to do and why they exist. Takes a lotta voltage to do that if it was the fuse itself that exploded.  Maybe something underneath it. Either way “bad engineer! Bad!  No cookie!”   A fuse that explodes like that doesn’t save anything. Sure the downstream stuff might still be viable but with a crater like that it doesn’t matter.  The whole board is toast.  Might be able to desoldering the parts and use them on something else but the board is still dead.  It’s not like that fuse can be just replaced now.

Edited by Bombastinator

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1 hour ago, wkdpaul said:

Not sure how that proves that other cards than FTW3 died because of the New Worlds bug.

 

Again, I've supplied links showing people had the same issue but didn't have a FTW3. I never said there wasn't an issue with EVGA GPUs specifically. All I said is that calling people (that mention there are other GPUs that have the issue) liars is rather disingenuous when there's proof it does affect other GPUs than the FTW3.

 

AGAIN ; the fact that other GPUs are affected by that bug doesn't mean that EVGA is clear of any wrong doing with their designs, I've never argued that and even mentioned the GPUs other than the FTW3 that have died might have died anyway because of other issues.

if you are going to comment this issue you have to do some background on it, i was a lot on the EVGA forum because of the queues and this cards have been dying long before NW, people where on 2nd and 3rd RMA and one on the 6th, there was clearly a problem with the cards that NW runaway fps only made it more apparent, the other cards are just cards that joined the band, every day cards die, more apparently when a game behaves like this and everyone is playing it at the same time, it where cards that were marked to die anyway, in here or anywhere else.

I fell bad for people with EVGA cards, and washing this doesn't help their RMA loop in any way, it's sad no one pressures them like they do with problems in other brands, anyway it's just how the world works, EVGA got most of the influencers controled. Sorry for the rambling

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6 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Buildzoid said they at least protected the rest of the components by doing that. Other OEMs don't include the fuse and blow up the VRM/GPU die.

Yeah,but in that case the PCB is toast.

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5 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

I'm not really sure, but I do think something went wrong other than the fuse. Maybe it didn't break the connection completely and created an arc that melted everything, or it got hot enough to melt the resin letting traces short (e.g. fuse with wrong rating). 

It's not supposed to blow-up like that,and that adds another thing for manufacturers to check - Will the fuse protect the card or turn the PCB into charcoal?

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52 minutes ago, Vishera said:

It's not supposed to blow-up like that,and that adds another thing for manufacturers to check - Will the fuse protect the card or turn the PCB into charcoal?

I don’t know what was with that crater.  Needs to be found out though.  That this code knocked over a 590 even if it didn’t knock it out is very worrisome.  Knocking stuff out is worse of course. But even over is bad.  A 590 does NOT run a newly designed chip.  That’s some not-so-new architecture.   It is pretty hot rodded though. The 590 is that gpu pushed to the limit.  I suspect someone already knows exactly what is going on here, they just haven’t said so, but independant research happens too.  Keeping it secret may delay it but it won’t stop it.

 

Things I’m wondering about now: what DOESNT it knock over and why?

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5 hours ago, CarlBar said:

1. Why did the board get a hole blown in it. The voltage shouldn't go much above or below 12v since this is PSU feed, and arcing is voltage based. [...]

This is not necessarily true about the voltage. Having inductors in the circuit (power stages) running at high current can produce insanely high voltages if a popping fuse suddenly tries open the circuit on them. As I was thinking on the exploding fuse, this would be my explanation. Being unable to withstand cutting the current from a card drawing 100% power at this event because some of the power stored in the inductors is also getting dissipated on the popping fuse. But note that this is not the main problem here.

 

The fuse starts to pop because there is already a short circuit somewhere deeper, probably a power stage about to blow the same way. The power stage fail-safes (likely overcurrent protection) are the ones to be fixed first.

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9 hours ago, grg994 said:

Here is a picture of a fried EVGA 3090 (https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/mmo-new-world-(closed-beta)-is-killing-geforce-rtx-3090-graphics-cards😞

https://tweakers.net/i/s57I50unQz11JSYsMEZcA66zh9c=/1280x/filters:strip_icc():strip_exif()/i/2004500540.jpeg

 

The visible damage is in the where I marked on this pcb layout. That component should be a fuse on one of the 12V lines, connected directly after the rightmost 8pin.

image.thumb.png.a9151b6597f7f7f371c9252f44306c1c.png

 

Looks like Nvida/EVGA is redefining the term "a blown fuse"...

Please note that image is where on the website they mentioned the board was modified to bypass the current protection.

 

image.thumb.png.9dfca93aad8ddeec35e83163e5983095.png

https://www.igorslab.de/en/evga-geforce-rtx-3080-rtx-3090-and-not-only-new-world-when-the-graphics-card-goes-amok-because-of-design-failures/2/

 

Please be careful, as the way this image was mentioned takes it completely out of context.

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3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Please note that image is where on the website they mentioned the board was modified to bypass the current protection.

Where exactly?

In the whole article i didn't see them mentioning that OCP was disabled.

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4 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Where exactly?

In the whole article i didn't see them mentioning that OCP was disabled.

image.thumb.png.dc107b7234b0a7902103070b6988ef38.png

On the first page. 

 

I'm pointing out that the example image is in the context of "this is what the damage looks like when you bypass the protection circuit"

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2 hours ago, grg994 said:

This is not necessarily true about the voltage. Having inductors in the circuit (power stages) running at high current can produce insanely high voltages if a popping fuse suddenly tries open the circuit on them. As I was thinking on the exploding fuse, this would be my explanation. Being unable to withstand cutting the current from a card drawing 100% power at this event because some of the power stored in the inductors is also getting dissipated on the popping fuse. But note that this is not the main problem here.

 

The fuse starts to pop because there is already a short circuit somewhere deeper, probably a power stage about to blow the same way. The power stage fail-safes (likely overcurrent protection) are the ones to be fixed first.

Another theory about this one: electricity CAN cause explosions but it isn’t the only thing that does.  This could be a weird one instigated by, say, heat.  You’re more likely to be right because PCB, but the balls roll funny for everybody.  *wants smarter everyday on the case* this very well could be a specifically electrical engineering thing, but it could also be a weird general physics thing about rapidly expanding gas or something.

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Please post the original picture, not the troll one overcirculating on "tech" sites and fanboy sites.

The seller of that card even said it was shunt modded and the buyer incorrectly applied the original heatsink, when that card was sold as watercooling compatible ONLY.

The original heatsink SHORTED the shunts.  You can look at the original picture and see for yourself.

 

 

image0 (1).jpg

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30 minutes ago, Falkentyne said:

Please post the original picture, not the troll one overcirculating on "tech" sites and fanboy sites.

The seller of that card even said it was shunt modded and the buyer incorrectly applied the original heatsink, when that card was sold as watercooling compatible ONLY.

The original heatsink SHORTED the shunts.  You can look at the original picture and see for yourself.

 

 

image0 (1).jpg

So no bad engineer, so much as bad purchasing people?  Is this just one card single card? The level of what constitutes a “seller” and a “buyer” is a bit vague here. is the seller or the buyer evga? If so, which one?  Might take care of the particular model of 3090 blue smoke issue.  How bad is the “other cards” going down but not bricking thing? Seems the numbers are higher than one.  Not sure one what even.

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4 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

So no bad engineer, so much as bad purchasing people?  Might take care of the particular model of 3090 blue smoke issue.  How bad is the “other cards” going down but not bricking thing? 

This person's failure as in the picture was not directly related to the ICX controller.  This guy actually burned the VRM's/shunts from a short circuit with the stacked shunts and heatsink.  The original seller of that card was on Elmor's discord and explained exactly what happened.

 

Most of the cards that are dying are not burning up in smoke and fire like this one.

 

The UP9511 problem is real.  It's the ICX controller that's burning out the cards/VRM's/fuses.  It's causing the fan to report improper RPM and forcing the fan to move at maximum (beyond what you can set in software) fan speed when the super high reading occurs.  The exact same flaw is causing the card to trip OCP.  Without an oscilloscope hooked up to the VRM and logging everything, it's sort of difficult to determine what exact trigger is killing the card.  But it's clearly either overamperage or overvoltage of something.

 

There was a user over on evga forums who tested this specifically in Anno 1800 or whatever that game is called.  When he clicked a building tooltip, he randomly saw the fan report 2 million RPM in GPU-Z.  If he did not INSTANTLY close the tooltip when this happened, the card black screened (with max fan speed) very shortly after.  He saw the same thing happen in New World.

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1 hour ago, Falkentyne said:

This person's failure as in the picture was not directly related to the ICX controller.  This guy actually burned the VRM's/shunts from a short circuit with the stacked shunts and heatsink.  The original seller of that card was on Elmor's discord and explained exactly what happened.

 

Most of the cards that are dying are not burning up in smoke and fire like this one.

 

The UP9511 problem is real.  It's the ICX controller that's burning out the cards/VRM's/fuses.  It's causing the fan to report improper RPM and forcing the fan to move at maximum (beyond what you can set in software) fan speed when the super high reading occurs.  The exact same flaw is causing the card to trip OCP.  Without an oscilloscope hooked up to the VRM and logging everything, it's sort of difficult to determine what exact trigger is killing the card.  But it's clearly either overamperage or overvoltage of something.

 

There was a user over on evga forums who tested this specifically in Anno 1800 or whatever that game is called.  When he clicked a building tooltip, he randomly saw the fan report 2 million RPM in GPU-Z.  If he did not INSTANTLY close the tooltip when this happened, the card black screened (with max fan speed) very shortly after.  He saw the same thing happen in New World.

Here’s hoping I don’t come off like that whole injecting bleach thing with this one.  
 

I’m Having trouble finding out what up9511 refers to exactly. It sounds a bit like a model number for the specific evga 3090 model but might be only part of that card?

I can’t seem to determine it with casual internetting 
 

It is sounding to me that the claim is the problem shown in the photo applies to only one specific possibly not even retail card and is not an example of what is going on commonly and furthermore is unrelated. (No fault to the poster here though possibly to the original one)
However that does not mean that a permanent problem is not occurring, just not that one. 

 

That’s seperate from the explanation of what is happening though, which is a bit difficult to unravel.  (Specifically for me.  It could just be me not understanding) Perhaps it’s just the pronoun, or that there is more than one overcurrent protection circuit in the machine but only one is being tripped, or that word “tripped” itself which implies a reset. Fuses in my lexicon blow not trip.  Sometimes they melt so fast they explode, but it’s a non resetting thing. You have to replace the fuse.  My understanding is when overcurrent protection in a machine’s power supply box “trips” it at least often automatically resets when power is removed.  No fuse has to be replaced.  There very well might not be room or capacity for such things inside a video card though. 
 

is this ICX ACTUALLY burning things out or just causing behavior that makes people think it is burning things out because it’s tripping an over current protection every time the card is used or just once if the overcurrent protection is not a breaker but a fuse? In that case a fuse would still need replacing, so a fuse blowing but not catastrophically as implied in the photo. Blown fuse dead card though. 

 

OCP could refer to the overcurrent protection for the computers power supply or one onboard the video card. 
 

Might explain why some cards are failing but not permanently.  It depends which OCP gets tripped first.  It could then apply to multiple cards, which would mean the non up9511 cards(?) having issues are having near death experiences and only being saved because their PSU OCP trips. So bad for everyone? A piece of code that can make a computer reset to save itself is potentially a problem. 

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15 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Here’s hoping I don’t come off like that whole injecting bleach thing with this one.  
 

I’m Having trouble finding out what up9511 refers to exactly. It sounds a bit like a model number for the specific evga 3090 model but might be only part of that card?

I can’t seem to determine it with casual internetting 
 

It is sounding to me that the claim is the problem shown in the photo applies to only one specific possibly not even retail card and is not an example of what is going on commonly and furthermore is unrelated. (No fault to the poster here though possibly to the original one)
However that does not mean that a permanent problem is not occurring, just not that one. 

 

That’s seperate from the explanation of what is happening though, which is a bit difficult to unravel.  (Specifically for me.  It could just be me not understanding) Perhaps it’s just the pronoun, or that there is more than one overcurrent protection circuit in the machine but only one is being tripped, or that word “tripped” itself which implies a reset. Fuses in my lexicon blow not trip.  Sometimes they melt so fast they explode, but it’s a non resetting thing. You have to replace the fuse.  My understanding is when overcurrent protection in a machine’s power supply box “trips” it at least often automatically resets when power is removed.  No fuse has to be replaced.  There very well might not be room or capacity for such things inside a video card though. 
 

is this ICX ACTUALLY burning things out or just causing behavior that makes people think it is burning things out because it’s tripping an over current protection every time the card is used or just once if the overcurrent protection is not a breaker but a fuse? In that case a fuse would still need replacing, so a fuse blowing but not catastrophically as implied in the photo. Blown fuse dead card though. 

 

OCP could refer to the overcurrent protection for the computers power supply or one onboard the video card. 
 

Might explain why some cards are failing but not permanently.  It depends which OCP gets tripped first.  It could then apply to multiple cards, which would mean the non up9511 cards(?) having issues are having near death experiences and only being saved because their PSU OCP trips. So bad for everyone? A piece of code that can make a computer reset to save itself is potentially a problem. 

No one knows. . Until someone mans up and sends a card to Elmor or Buildzoid, no one will ever know.

All I know is cause and effect.  I know observation.   If someone gets 2 million RPM fan speed (reported) then black screens a few seconds later, it's VERY clear that BOTH problems are related.  It doesn't take a high IQ to figure that out.

And what controls the fans and the black screen (OCP)?  The VRM controller / phases....

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11 minutes ago, Falkentyne said:

No one knows. . Until someone mans up and sends a card to Elmor or Buildzoid, no one will ever know.

All I know is cause and effect.  I know observation.   If someone gets 2 million RPM fan speed (reported) then black screens a few seconds later, it's VERY clear that BOTH problems are related.  It doesn't take a high IQ to figure that out.

And what controls the fans and the black screen (OCP)?  The VRM controller / phases....

Or no one who is saying so on the internet does at least.  EA and evga are taking actions which imply they think they do. They seem to be opposed though at least partially.  I do not enjoy being a mushroom person. I doubt many do.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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