Crypto Miners buying up entire power plants

[leadeater]

17 hours ago, Jeppes said:

Hydro dams are not exactly green energy as those have massive effect on ecosystems ocean wide. Fish populations grow smaller as coastal waters get less nutrients because dams stop sediment from getting through. Also huge impact because fish cant go past em upstream.

Well I know of a company that develops and deploys fish bypasses, jumps and shoots for this problem that allows fish to get from one side of a dam to another. Another one of those solvable problems that didn't happen until people cared enough or made enough noise about it.

 

Like most things, a solution can be found if you go looking. If you don't go looking you obviously won't find one, which tends to be default action for many things.

[leadeater]

15 hours ago, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

I could buy that. But it hangs on the self-interested agency of the miners. We as a society have the option to do better. We could decide collectively that the hydro-power be used to offset existing fossil fuel power, instead of using it to add new power consumption to the grid. In so doing, we would more greatly reduce the harms done by generating the power that we need.

Problem is this argument is predicated on the notion that crypto mining has no or low social or economic value. Energy usage has been, is and will continue to be so on an upward trajectory and this is due to many factors, population growth being a big factor, with one of those being economic outcomes being more reliant on electricity (and technology).

 

So whether it's this, crypto mining, or something else you will not be offsetting anything because capacity growth is a requirement. All you can do is change the ratio of energy types used.

 

So back to the first point which addresses the fundamental proposition you put forward, you are in essence advocating for the denial of economic opportunity and prosperity because you deem the activity to be low or no value. What happens if I deem aluminum smelting as no or low value? The process requires enormous amounts of power and a large portion of this goes toward my ability to drink a can of Coke.

 

I mean sure I could raise a better defense for the need of aluminum smelting compared to crypto mining but I could have just as easily picking something else that isn't nearly as easily defensible or a current foundational requirement for the world to function at all.

 

Everyone has a self interest and that doesn't make it a bad thing, some want to fly in to space for no apparent benefit to society at all with dubious flow on benefits as claimed compared to other companies in the aerospace industry.

[Kadzo]

This is excellent

 

 

 

[Justaphysicsnerd]

Lets see the Techno-king defend Crypto Mining now ! Miners are using fossil fuel to power up their rigs...I think he is gonna say don't worry dodge mining is powered by Nuclear Power Plants, a certain old dormant one in Ukraine near Privyet

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, Justaphysicsnerd said:

Miners are using fossil fuel to power up their rigs

 

Quote

For example, a crypto mining company called Core Scientific moved into an old Levi’s denim factory that had near-exclusive access to a nearby hydroelectric dam

Fossil fuel? Hmm maybe. Animal drinks water from dam, dies, thousands of years later becomes crude oil, oil extracted and refined... oh wait thousands of years have passed so I have no bloody idea what is happening at this point, and I'd be dead 

[Bombastinator]

6 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

If that were true I personally would have noticed it firsthand since there are several in this area. Absolutely zero issues of this kind reported or seen by myself or any others around here.

It is true nothing is perfect and each method has it's own drawbacks but out of all the various ways of generating it hydro is about as good as it gets on many fronts vs the rest in use.

 

It’s more accurate to say they can destroy river ecology.  Or at least damage it research is being done.  A few dams have been removed.  

[Master Delta Chief]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

So back to the first point which addresses the fundamental proposition you put forward, you are in essence advocating for the denial of economic opportunity and prosperity because you deem the activity to be low or no value. What happens if I deem aluminum smelting as no or low value? The process requires enormous amounts of power and a large portion of this goes toward my ability to drink a can of Coke.

Crypto is nothing but trouble and holds no value whatsoever for the world, only for those that are rich. It provided a platform for people to scam and use it for other malicious activities. Whataboutism is a weak argument to try, especially in this case.

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Everyone has a self interest and that doesn't make it a bad thing, some want to fly in to space for no apparent benefit to society at all with dubious flow on benefits as claimed compared to other companies in the aerospace industry.

Sure everyone has their own self-interest, but it's a weak defense to justify someone's action. 

[leadeater]

59 minutes ago, Master Delta Chief said:

Crypto is nothing but trouble and holds no value whatsoever for the world, only for those that are rich. It provided a platform for people to scam and use it for other malicious activities. Whataboutism is a weak argument to try, especially in this case.

Zero of my crypto transactions have been scam, illegal activity or malicious in any way. This view you put forward is extremely weak and also completely not forward thinking at all. The majority of mine btw were when Steam accepted bitcoin.

 

Crypto currieries and the technology isn't even the issue at all and it seems to me you're conflating two or multiple issues in to a nice umbrella or in other words a highly simplistic view of the situation.

 

The above point aside it's rather poor form to come in and declare that what is a good income for many in countries with significantly lower employment opportunities and lower or more costly access to education a bad thing. There are very strong links between both crime rate, severity of crime and low academic achievement with poverty so any activity that actually is bringing people out of that is hardly a bad thing.

 

Sure many people got rich crypto mining however the vast majority were not rich at the start and are now. This existing wealth issue brings with it the same or similar issues you'll find anywhere else, once there are a few very big fish in the water it's much harder to compete, such is life I'm afraid. Economic equality is firmly in the realms of idealism and that situation is not getting any better.

 

59 minutes ago, Master Delta Chief said:

Sure everyone has their own self-interest, but it's a weak defense to justify someone's action. 

So is you subjective opinion and attributed value of an activity? I think you missed the point. Your opinion is equally as weak as mine would be about aluminum if I had such an opinion. I'll thrown in another one for you, perfume. Complete waste of resources, high amounts of pollution from transportation and waste packaging. Perfume has no economic or social benefit, there is no single redeeming or positive factor for it.

[LAwLz]

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'll thrown in another one for you, perfume. Complete waste of resources, high amounts of pollution from transportation and waste packaging. Perfume has no economic or social benefit, there is no single redeeming or positive factor for it.

I'll thrown in another one for you. Gaming. 

Some estimates put the global energy consumption of gaming PCs and consoles at slightly below the global energy consumption of crypto mining. 

If we are going to start debating whether or not crypto mining should be allowed because of perceived economical or social benefits then I think we should take a good hard look at gaming as well. 

Does the economical and social benefits of gaming outweigh the negatives, which are mainly massive power consumption almost on par with crypto mining, as well as a growing health issues. 

 

I think a lot of people get caught up in the whole "I don't like or understand the point of this thing so we can get rid of it" mentality.

 

It's the same as parents who want video games banned because their children spend a lot of time at it. If you have tunnel vision and only see drawbacks of something, and don't participate in it yourself, then it's very easy to fall into the "let's ban it" camp. 

[Bombastinator]

The way I think of it myself is that blockchain is like an automobile in that it’s an invention that is useful, and cryptocoin is like drunken driving, which while a direct offshoot of the automobile is more like an unfortunate side effect.  Different groups try to print their own money at every opportunity. It isn’t new.  Happened in the US and had to be dealt with, happened in China and had to be dealt with.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bombastinator

[GDRRiley]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:44 AM, LAwLz said:

Nowhere in the article does it say it is fossil fuel that are being used. 

In fact, the original source (Curbed) that the futurism article links to clearly states that they bought a hydroelectric dam.

thats one case but there are a few in upsate New York that bought Coal plants

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/bitcoin-power-plant-is-turning-a-12000-year-old-glacial-lake-into-a-hot-tub/

[GDRRiley]

11 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I just find it hilarious that no one really cared about the negatives of hydro until mining is involved and we start asking if hydro is worth it

 

Just like no one cared about computer energy consumption until it has to do with mining

I do and I've know about them for a long time. The salmon runs in our area are hurt by many of our large dams and we are forced to release water at a growing rate to keep the rivers cool enough for them to spawn

 

lots of companies and some politicians do, its why there is a push for ATX 12VO and higher efficiency for  business machines, the DOE cared enough to have this run  https://sites.google.com/site/greeningthebeast/home?authuser=0 Yes I know it isn't perfect and there are some issue with the QA/ FAQs

 

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I'll thrown in another one for you. Gaming. 

Some estimates put the global energy consumption of gaming PCs and consoles at slightly below the global energy consumption of crypto mining. 

If we are going to start debating whether or not crypto mining should be allowed because of perceived economical or social benefits then I think we should take a good hard look at gaming as well.

You are basically comparing a tomato plant in a flower pot to burning down a forest to build a tomato plantation. Buying several shipping containers of hardware and a power plant to make a quick buck is highly problematic.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, overthe6r said:

Where does crypto money comes from? And for what are they using mining pcs

Crypto has thousands of different protocols for a similar number of different “coins” As such different setups are more or less efficient for each one.  Bitcoin, for example, which I merely one of those coins though it has the lions share of the value, can only be done these days efficiently with something called an ASIC miner which is a specialized pieces of hardware designed to solely create Bitcoin hashes.  As such it is very electrically efficient. They have been bought by some power plants to use when electricity is of low value.  Etherium is a different coin that was intentionally balanced to prefer consumer gaming GPUs.  This sort of backfired because what happened is the big miners simply bought massive numbers of condiment gaming GPUs creating a shortage.   There are others such as chia that are most efficient on systems with large numbers of high speed mechanical hard disks (which has created a shortage of those as well) 

 

The value of cryptocoin is it is extremely easy to transfer though borders and to launder. The result is people who wish to do various illegal things pay money for it, do the illegal thing, and then change the money backs. Soon after Bitcoin was announced a Colombian drug lord claimed he would accept payment ONLY in Bitcoin.  Chinese billionaires also like it as it is a way to transfer funds out of the country without alerting  the CCP.  AFAiK those are the two main purposes cryptocoin has over traditional currencies. 

[WkdPaul]

10 minutes ago, SGT-AMD said:

Chia Pet?

Almost ... instead of growing chia on your desk, you're growing chia on your desktop ; https://www.chia.net/

[Beerzerker]

Chi-Chi-Chi-Chia!
 

7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

It’s more accurate to say they can destroy river ecology.  Or at least damage it research is being done.  A few dams have been removed.  

Then that would have to apply to where you are, I'm aware Salmon have to go upstream to spawn and there are others that may need to do that.
We don't have Salmon here or any fish that would need to worry about doing that.
The ecology you speak of may have been affected where you are but here it's fine with no need to remove anything.

Note this is opinion and it's just that but to me Hydro is still the best overall to go with vs any of the others you can name.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You are basically comparing a tomato plant in a flower pot to burning down a forest to build a tomato plantation. Buying several shipping containers of hardware and a power plant to make a quick buck is highly problematic.

What? 

I'm comparing one person running 100 GPUs to 100 people running 1 GPU each. 

It doesn't matter how many or how few people participate. What matters is total power consumption which is number of users multiplied by average power consumption.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

 This sort of backfired because what happened is the big miners simply bought massive numbers of condiment gaming GPUs creating a shortage.

There is 0 evidence that crypto miners are the cause of GPU shortages. It doesn't even make any sense to assume they are because we have shortages in all sectors, such as networking equipment, cars, consoles, CPUs and even mouse pads as well. 

Can you please stop repeating the baseless claim that crypto mining is the cause of shortages until you actually have some evidence for it? 

[Bombastinator]

30 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Chi-Chi-Chi-Chia!
 

Then that would have to apply to where you are, I'm aware Salmon have to go upstream to spawn and there are others that may need to do that.
We don't have Salmon here or any fish that would need to worry about doing that.
The ecology you speak of may have been affected where you are but here it's fine with no need to remove anything.

Note this is opinion and it's just that but to me Hydro is still the best overall to go with vs any of the others you can name.

It’s situationally dependent.  I live mid-continent so there are no salmon issues.  They are apparently doing research to find out if there is anything affected besides salmon.  There have been some unusual observations of freshwater shrimp (crawdads) breeding stuff they are apparently still looking into.  In my are the only dam that I know of that was removed happened because it was wearing out and no one wanted to pay to replace it and the thing was put in for the convenience of a flour mill that hadn’t even existed for a long time.  That’s another thing about hydro: it’s really really expensive to install or alter.

[Tellos]

At this point miners will just consolidate their currency into smaller groups with more of it. So they will become the new centralized power over the crypto market. Its going to become as rich and wealth based as normal markets. If you have it you can get more but if you have none you cannot get in.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What? 

I'm comparing one person running 100 GPUs to 100 people running 1 GPU each. 

It doesn't matter how many or how few people participate. What matters is total power consumption which is number of users multiplied by average power consumption.

 

 

There is 0 evidence that crypto miners are the cause of GPU shortages. It doesn't even make any sense to assume they are because we have shortages in all sectors, such as networking equipment, cars, consoles, CPUs and even mouse pads as well. 

Can you please stop repeating the baseless claim that crypto mining is the cause of shortages until you actually have some evidence for it? 

Mmm.. there’s strong evidence they’re not the only reason, as for being a reason there the behavior of Nvidia, smuggling catches, and pricing changes after China made mining illegal there that all point to there being at least some effect. 
 

As to sizes of players I would say in fact that there probably isn’t a ton of difference between 1 gpu and 100 GPUs except that one is a lark and the other can only be on purpose.  It’s the 1 vs 10,000 that starts to changs things.  How many video cards in a pool?  

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Tellos said:

At this point miners will just consolidate their currency into smaller groups with more of it. So they will become the new centralized power over the crypto market. Its going to become as rich and wealth based as normal markets. If you have it you can get more but if you have none you cannot get in.

“Will?”  That already happened several years ago.

[Tellos]

6 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

“Will?”  That already happened several years ago.

I see a new wave of it coming.

[Wictorian]

On 7/20/2021 at 4:29 PM, TetraSky said:

Oh cool. More fossil fuel power plants being powered back on just for the sake of mining virtual currency that people decided to attribute value to. Just what the world needed.

Well the same as dollar. Question is is it more effective than banking?

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

Well the same as dollar. Question is is it more effective than banking?

Depends if you’re a criminal or not.  If yes, then yes.

[LAwLz]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Mmm.. there’s strong evidence they’re not the only reason, as for being a reason there the behavior of Nvidia, smuggling catches, and pricing changes after China made mining illegal there that all point to there being at least some effect.

What behavior from Nvidia?

Which smuggling catches?

 

The price fluctuation in China does not indicate that crypto mining is causing the shortages.

1) It seems like the price drop of graphics cards in China were caused by people putting in fake listings on second hand market places in an attempt to drive prices down.

2) Even if the crypto mining ban resulted in a drop in graphics card prices, that still would not prove or even hint that crypto mining are causing shortages. A ban on crypto mining could just be causing people to dump their cards, thus making the disparity between supply and demand less than it was.

 

Think of it like this. We have a global shortage of cars right now. The wait list for cars is insanely long in Sweden. People just can't get cars, new or old. 

If the Swedish government suddenly said that nobody over the age of 65 are allowed to drive a car anymore, the retired people would most likely sell their cars right? That would probably result in a slight drop in prices for cars in Sweden. Does that mean retired people are what's causing the car shortages? No. It just means that if you force a group of people to sell their products it will levitate the pressure on the market somewhat. The same thing might be happening with graphics cards in China as well.

 

3) We are now almost a year into the global shortages, but we are slowly seeing things to back to normal. For example I tried to order a firewall 8 months ago and was told the delivery time was 3 months. I recently ordered the exact same model of firewall and got a preliminary shipping date in 1 month.

So the wait time for the particular firewall I ordered have gone from 3 months to 1 months. I have seen similar things with other products as well. That does not mean the crisis is over, but we are seeing some industries catch up. It would be foolish to assume the supply and demand situation of graphics cards isn't getting better either, and as it does we will see prices of graphics card go down. That will happen regardless of how many or few people mine cryptocurrencies. The GPU market is limited. Sooner or later everyone who wants to buy a graphics card will have one.