British Tank Commander Leaks Classified Document so that War Thunder can Fix Their Game

[Shreyas1]

 

Summary

 Here's a funny one. An alleged British tank commander and war thunder player leaked classified documents (basically the user manual) on the Challenger 2 MBT so that Gaijin would fix the model on the challenger 2, specifically the gap between the main turret and hull. This is a violation of the Official Secrets Act, and can carry up to a 14 year punishment in prison if persecuted. Much of the document was heavily redacted though, it was still classified information being shared. Unfortunately, since the information is classified, Gaijin now cannot make the changes.

 

Image from War Thunder Forum

 

Quotes

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it is understood that the excerpts from the document had their ‘UK RESTRICTED’ label crossed out and a stamp of ‘UNCLASSIFIED’ added, as well as having various parts fully blanked. One forum user remarked that “the cover for instance had basically everything except CHALLENGER 2 blacked out”.

 

The forum user posted the following alongside the now removed AESP in an effort to have an issue with the in-game design of the vehicle rectified.

“Linking those screenshots with the following edited image from the AESP’s which is meant to show the relationship of the various components. The image isn’t exactly to scale as its only meant to show the position of components relative to each other but it works for the point I’m trying to make here. The trunnion’s sit centrally of the rotor. The trunnions support the rotor in the turret structure and the GCE sub components as previously stated are all mounted to the rotor.”

Quote

But even if it was an honest mistake, the entire incident is fascinating. For one thing, it all started over a dispute in the size of the gap between the main turret structure and hull—a minute detail, you might think, but one that this guy takes very seriously. This is also apparently not the first time something like this has happened: In its initial response to the post, community manager Smin1080p wrote, "Last time such a document was shared that was claimed to be 'unclassified' it was in fact still classified and was confirmed that it should never have been shared." How many times have people shared classified military secrets in the War Thunder forums?

 

Maybe best of all, though, it seems that while sharing classified MoD documents in the War Thunder forums might be a violation of the Official Secrets Act, is it apparently not a bannable offense: The account that posted the images is still valid and, by all appearances, in good standing. 

My thoughts

 The information being leaked doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in my opinion, I mean sure its classified, but I highly doubt that foreign powers are going to care about the gap between the turret and hull. For this reason I also doubt the leaker is going to get put in jail or anything. Not an expert in how these things are handled though. Still quite a funny story

 

Sources

https://www.pcgamer.com/war-thunder-fan-says-tank-is-inaccurate-leaks-classified-military-documents-to-prove-it/ 

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-specs-leaked-online-for-videogame/

[Eigenvektor]

9 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

The information being leaked doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in my opinion, I mean sure its classified, but I highly doubt that foreign powers are going to care about the gap between the turret and hull.

Doesn't really matter how useful that information is (as a layperson I have no idea). But it is marked as classified, the person leaking it has broken the law and as such they may very well face prison time (if someone decides to prosecute them, as the mod points out).

 

It would've been a much better idea to just find some photos of the tank online and then send it to them as reference material rather than leak information from a classified document.

[Shreyas1]

11 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

It would've been a much better idea to just find some photos of the tank online and then send it to them as reference material rather than leak information from a classified document.

I think the issue is that the commander wanted to show stuff more in depth, and a lot of diagrams online have to do some guesswork because its all classified, so the only diagrams that would be fully accurate are the ones from the manual (I also am not an expert in these things, so someone feel free to correct me)

 

I doubt they would prosecute him though, I'd assume its a specialty job and they don't really gain too much from putting a tank commander in jail and having to train a new one. I feel like they might just let him off with a light punishment given the stuff leaked didn't appear too serious from what others have said online, but again I'm not an expert in these things

[trag1c]

There's a lot of things gaijin needs to fix lol, I find this issue to be minimal. Though why risk being imprisoned or worse (depending on country) for what is essentially treason for a video game.

[CT854]

This is probably the most idiotic way to get court-martialed.

 

I hope he doesn't end up behind bars for this... though that depends on how serious HM Armed Forces thinks this is.

[Master Disaster]

57 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

The information being leaked doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in my opinion, I mean sure its classified, but I highly doubt that foreign powers are going to care about the gap between the turret and hull.

Incorrect. That information might allow foreign enemies to design weapons designed to target that specific area using the exact measurements to create maximum impact. It might allow them to extrapolate other information such as armour thickness, identify potential weakspots in the design etc etc.

 

Turns out engineers are very clever people who can work out a lot of big detail from just a small piece of information.

Quote

For this reason I also doubt the leaker is going to get put in jail or anything. Not an expert in how these things are handled though. Still quite a funny

I'm sorry but what? He signed the official secrets act then broke his contract. The context is irrelevant, doesn't matter if he told his wife, told a game developer or sold it to the russians, the crime was breaking his agreement to keep it a secret and he will find his ass in military prison very shortly.

 

16 minutes ago, CT854 said:

I hope he doesn't end up behind bars for this... though that depends on how serious HM Armed Forces thinks this is.

You think the UK Army and Govt. are gonna fuck around when it comes to leaking classified documents? They ARE going to prison.

[Eigenvektor]

10 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

I think the issue is that the commander wanted to show stuff more in depth, and a lot of diagrams online have to do some guesswork because its all classified, …

Leaking classified documents because, whoops those aren't commonly available (duh), is beyond stupid. It's just a game. Why would someone put their job and freedom in jeopardy for such a minute detail is mind boggling.

 

If the leaked information is found to reveal some weakness that could endanger the lives of other troops, it could be punished pretty severely. Or they could go after him simply to make an example of him (or the next person might leak stuff that is actually important)

[Andreas Lilja]

It's pretty common for enthusiasts to collect and share these, doesn't have to be an actual military man.

 

[Shreyas1]

6 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Incorrect. That information might allow foreign enemies to design weapons designed to target that specific area using the exact measurements to create maximum impact. It might allow them to extrapolate other information such as armour thickness, identify potential weakspots in the design etc etc.

 

Turns out engineers are very clever people who can work out a lot of big detail from just a small piece of information.

Dang, didn't realize it was potentially that important. Thought it would just be some stuff left secret just in case.

[Master Disaster]

6 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Leaking classified documents because, whoops those aren't commonly available (duh), is beyond stupid. It's just a game. Why would someone put their job and freedom in jeopardy for such a minute detail is mind boggling.

 

If the leaked information is found to reveal some weakness that could endanger the lives of other troops, it could be punished pretty severely. Or they could go after him simply to make an example of him (or the next person might leak stuff that is actually important)

Yeah, he was a soldier in the military. He is paid for, and expected to, meet a certain standard of behaviour. The army does not fuck around with this type of stuff and no, they won't use him as an example, they don't have to use him as an example.

 

For all intents and purposes he committed treason and for a serving soldier that's just about the worst thing you can ever do.

[Shreyas1]

Just now, Andreas Lilja said:

It's pretty common for enthusiasts to collect and share these, doesn't have to be an actual military man.

 

Well regardless of what occupation he was, it was still a confirmed classified document which he leaked illegally to win an internet argument.

[Eigenvektor]

2 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

Dang, didn't realize it was potentially that important. Thought it would just be some stuff left secret just in case.

Doesn't really matter why it is secret. It is secret, you promised to keep it a secret and you broke your promise.

 

And "just in case" here means: We don't know what a foreign military could potentially be able to infer from that information, better not make it public. And then some guy decides to make it public anyway. This was not his choice to make in any way.

[Master Disaster]

7 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

Dang, didn't realize it was potentially that important. Thought it would just be some stuff left secret just in case.

Its so important that most militaries on earth do not allow civilians to take photos of active and/or serving military hardware (except under very specific and controlled circumstances) because they're worried pics will end up in the hands of the enemy.

 

Its life and death stuff, literally.

[trag1c]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

The army does not fuck around with this type of stuff and no, they won't use him as an example, they don't have to use him as an example.

 

For all intents and purposes he committed treason and for a serving soldier that's just about the worst thing you can ever do.

I don't know about the UK but in Canada both the military court and the civilian court would get have their way with this guy since its both a military crime and a crime against the state. If the Canadian military gave him say 20 years and the civilian court gave him 20 years he would have 40 years to serve split between two different prison systems. He would be at club Ed first (military) shining a hallway constructed out of pennies and then off to whatever shithole the federal government has.

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, trag1c said:

I don't know about the UK but in Canada both the military court and the civilian court would get have their way with this guy since its both a military crime and a crime against the state. If the Canadian military gave him say 20 years and the civilian court gave him 20 years he would have 40 years to serve split between two different prison systems. He would be at club Ed first (military) shining a hallway constructed out of pennies and then off to whatever shithole the federal government has.

Commonwealth my dude, things are pretty close between the UK & Canada

[trag1c]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Commonwealth my dude, things are pretty close between the UK & Canada

Figured as much. At least the UK doesn't have the death penalty for military or civilian offences. Could have been much worse for that guy since I think the majority of the commonwealth still has provisions in place for traitorous/treasonous behavior.

[Dylanc1500]

I hope he gets military and civil penalties. He then deserves to have any awards or recognition stripped from him.

 

To me personally, it doesn't matter what he leaked. He broke the trust of both the military, the people he vowed to serve, and their allies. He also lended to the possibility of putting all of them at risk.

[Master Disaster]

5 minutes ago, Dylanc1500 said:

To me personally, it doesn't matter what he leaked. He broke the trust of both the military, the people he vowed to serve, and their allies. He also lended to the possibility of putting all of them at risk.

Exactly this, we're talking about potentially endangering the lives of any and all soldiers that serve on those vehicles.

[Murasaki]

"Well that escalated quickly" Surely you could just post a few pictures of a Challenger 2 which can easily be found online and not share internal documents? 300iq move..

[Vishera]

4 hours ago, Shreyas1 said:

 The information being leaked doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in my opinion, I mean sure its classified, but I highly doubt that foreign powers are going to care about the gap between the turret and hull. For this reason I also doubt the leaker is going to get put in jail or anything. Not an expert in how these things are handled though. Still quite a funny story

 

As matter of fact it's rather useful - it helps in finding spots in the tank that are more prone to failure,know exactly how it fails and use that info to hit that spot.

Or you can copy some design elements of the tank,and no country wants their designs to be copied,if every one will use it,it can erase the advantage the design gives compared to other tanks.

[Sauron]

4 hours ago, Shreyas1 said:

specifically the gap between the main turret and hull

Why would you ever care about this enough to leak a classified document and destroy your career, lmao

[AMD A10-9600P]

In what world is War Thunder worth more than a career, and your freedom??

 

Despite being from the UK, I won't pretend I know the ins and outs of this as I know very little about our military, but what I do know for sure is that this is an incredibly stupid way to lose your job and potentially freedoms too.

[Master Disaster]

11 minutes ago, AMD A10-9600P said:

In what world is War Thunder worth more than a career, and your freedom??

 

Despite being from the UK, I won't pretend I know the ins and outs of this as I know very little about our military, but what I do know for sure is that this is an incredibly stupid way to lose your job and potentially freedoms too.

You don't have to be intimately familiar with the Army to realise that breaking the official secrets act while being a serving soldier is incredibly dumb and is never going to end well.

[Fasterthannothing]

I mean this is kinda of hilarious this dude was so butt hurt over an online argument about the realistic features of a videogame he leaks a classified document to prove his point

[CarlBar]

Feel the need to step in here. I've followed the thread over at WT forums for a while, my inner engineering nerd enjoys reading about this stuff.

 

He's provided enormous amounts of information over the years, (emphasis on years), and has been clear all along that he's going through his local base intelligence section to get permission to release or not release stuff and he's provided notes of things that haven't been cleared. One easy to mention example is the details in a manual of the custom materials, (not the dorchester armour packs, somthing seperate for this part of the tank), regarding the mantlet area. he can talk about their being a verity of materials in there, but the documentation isn't cleared and he's never provided it.

 

At the same time Gaijin has repeatedly acted in bad faith adding or changing requirements for documentation anytime something useful comes up. One notable example was when a declassified document showing L27 ammunition penetration capability was dug up by a different user, Gaijin then responded by stating they'd just recently changed the rules on information for ammunition penetration parameters and this document no longer satisfies those.

 

Gaijin have also left vehicles, (not just British), with large scale significant bugs for years at a time that have negatively impacted their performance or rendered entire features non-functional. Gaijin has not only failed to fix these, they've refused to fix them by literally stating "statistics show this vehicle is fine". 

 

Finally if a vehicle is inaccurate or bugged they require extensive proof of this provided by the end users. beyond the work they put in in initially implementing it all further work requires the end user to do the research and reporting. And even once proven it typically takes months, somtimes years for the change to actually be made.

 

I'm mentioning all that as a preface however to the main point about Gaijin here. They are the ones stating it's classified and they apparently got confirmation within 24 hours on this. Now this could be somthing else and i suspect thats more likely, but before you all go blowing up it's important to remember we have no confirmation or source on it still being classified beyond a single post by a moderator on the official War Thunder forums. We have no independent confirmation this is true.

 

 

Personally the possibilities in descending order of probability from my PoV:

 

1. The paperwork the local Intel section presume has to submit to HQ hasn't been processed or whoever gaijin contacted failed to find. Bureaucratic screw up basically. This kind of paperwork issue happens all the time in any large organisation.

 

2. The local Intel section exceeded their authority in some fashion and told this individual he could share something when he shouldn't have. This would be a pretty major screw up, but depending on the bureaucracy behind it i could think of a few ways it can happen.

 

3. Gaijin are lying for their own benefit here. I don;t really believe thats likely, it would boomerang on them too hard eventually.

 

4. The Individual in question did in fact provide documents he wasn't supposed to. I find that unlikely, he's had plenty of opportunities over time to share stuff he shouldn't have and has even had to inform the thread that a document detailing some feature he hoped to be able to share has been declined.