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Proof Of Stake Blockchain (Security and 51% stake attack)

BotDamian
9 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

My wording was poor last night, but yes what you said was similar to my though processes.聽 There is little incentive to attack like this.聽 If someone were to figure out sha256 even solving a few blocks a day wouldn't bring up too much suspicion (and you wouldn't solve it instantly, you would solve it at roughly the 5 min mark)...one could probably net over a million dollars a day without raising suspicion.

For Bitcoin the block time is 10 minutes so on average there will only be 144 blocks per day. If you on your own start solving a few blocks per day I feel that would most certainly raise interest towards you and your pool's (if applicable) hashpower 馃槢

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52 minutes ago, tikker said:

For Bitcoin the block time is 10 minutes so on average there will only be 144 blocks per day. If you on your own start solving a few blocks per day I feel that would most certainly raise interest towards you and your pool's (if applicable) hashpower 馃槢

Yes, you are right...I had a brain fart.聽 I knew it was averaging about 6 blocks an hour...I just wasn't thinking.

Sure there would be questions if聽 you did a few blocks a day, but I doubt that it would bring up enough heat for people to assume you had cracked the algo.聽 Especially if you distributed it out so it doesn't appear as though one person is mining it daily.

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5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Yes, in general when crypto became a thing the incentive to actually perform a 51% attack on larger currencies dropped (it could still make sense to do a 51% on an up-and-coming crypto that isn't valued as much if you were wanting to have a different one gain a foothold...but overall I think it would be less likely).

My wording was poor last night, but yes what you said was similar to my though processes.聽 There is little incentive to attack like this.聽 If someone were to figure out sha256 even solving a few blocks a day wouldn't bring up too much suspicion (and you wouldn't solve it instantly, you would solve it at roughly the 5 min mark)...one could probably net over a million dollars a day without raising suspicion.

1min a day is still rough 馃槹 One mined block is 6.25BTC? That's about 220k?

Just adding 2 BTC to your wallet is already 60-80k

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5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Yes, you are right...I had a brain fart.聽 I knew it was averaging about 6 blocks an hour...I just wasn't thinking.

Sure there would be questions if聽 you did a few blocks a day, but I doubt that it would bring up enough heat for people to assume you had cracked the algo.聽 Especially if you distributed it out so it doesn't appear as though one person is mining it daily.

Yeah that's true. They'll be much more likely to assume you've just bought a crap ton of miners, which wouldn't be surprising at all seeing how people have acted the past year.

59 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

One mined block is 6.25BTC? That's about 220k?

Yes each mined block creates 6.25 BTC, which at current pricing is almost $250k. That block reward, along with the transaction fees included from transactions in the block, are then paid to the miner(s) that mined the block. The more you contributed to mining that block, the more you get. If you solo-mined it, it's all for you.

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

Just adding 2 BTC to your wallet is already 60-80k

Sure, but that can only be done by gathering the mining power to mine it or spending $80k to buy 2 of them so it's far from "just adding 2 BTC" to your wallet.

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I was watching some videos and read some stuff on medium.

So you have a nonce number that is being tried out until the hash starts for example with 20 zeros.

Then if the hash is valid you get a reward.

So shortly said whoever goes from 0 to X has a higher chance to mine the block right?

So how does that work in mining pools with other people?

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12 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

I was watching some videos and read some stuff on medium.

So you have a nonce number that is being tried out until the hash starts for example with 20 zeros.

Then if the hash is valid you get a reward.

So shortly said whoever goes from 0 to X has a higher chance to mine the block right?

So how does that work in mining pools with other people?

Well ultimately what pools would do is assign ranges, and people test within that range.聽 If you were doing it by yourself instead of ranges you would just pick random numbers (or start at a random number and then increment by one...to make sure no duplication)

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39 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

So shortly said whoever goes from 0 to X has a higher chance to mine the block right?

There is no starting number that will give you an advantage over another, because you don't know what the solution is.

43 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

So how does that work in mining pools with other people?

As @wanderingfool2 says mining pools simply divide up the work. The difference is that the payout will be to the pool's address and the pool subsequently pays miners based on what payment rules they have set up.

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13 hours ago, tikker said:

There is no starting number that will give you an advantage over another, because you don't know what the solution聽

Do ASIC miners also use a random nonce each time or are they starting all with nonce 0 and going up? Because to me it makes no sense that nonce are random why not going one by one?

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4 hours ago, BotDamian said:

Do ASIC miners also use a random nonce each time or are they starting all with nonce 0 and going up? Because to me it makes no sense that nonce are random why not going one by one?

Mining is the same whether you do it on a CPU, GPU or ASIC. The difference is that an ASIC is optimised to do one thing and can thus achieve much higher hash rates. The requirement to add a block is that you find a nonce that adheres to the rules. The first miner that finds one gets to add the block to the chain. There is not a single solution, because as you mentioned the rule is simply that it starts with X amount of zeroes. Say the rule is that it starts with four zeroes. If I find 0x0000AF54 and you find 0x000ED42 we both have valid nonces. It comes down to who found one first.

If the nonce were to simply increase by one for every then all nonces for every block would already be known and hence there would be no security at all. What you are calculating for Bitcoin is something like

new_block_hash = SHA256(SHA256(previous_block_hash + hashed_transactions + nonce))

In principle you don't know what the nonce is, so you have no advantage starting at 100000 compared to starting at 0 or just trying values randomly. Interestingly the distribution of nonces (that have been found) isn't completely random and I think it's not completely clear why that is the case. Speculations that it has to do with ASICs are around or it could be due to certain mining strategies. This read goes into it more: https://blog.bitmex.com/the-mystery-of-the-bitcoin-nonce-pattern/

The distribution of Bitcoin nonces:

DwKH0nvWsAEyZYu?format=jpg&name=large

Here the blue dots are the nonce values and the red line is difficulty. You can see around block 400000 it stops being random and some areas seem to be much rarer.

For comparison, the distribution of Ethereum nonces:

DwUQxasX4AErzJD?format=jpg&name=large

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