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Your Ryzen laptop is (probably) throttled quite heavily when on battery - and it's (probably?) not a huge deal

6 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

So your 45W CPU might actually be chugging much more than that, for a predetermined amount of time. Once that time is reached (assuming it doesn't thermal-throttle), it throttles down to PL2, and stays there until the task is finished. This also means the cooling demand is much higher, so they tend to run warmer during extended workloads, especially for the time limit that the CPU is in PL1.

It does that. The max fast boost is 90W as far as I remember, and the lower one is 65W. Completely stupid and nonsense. Disabling turbo boost at least makes it run consistently, otherwise the entire system freezes when throttling with frequency going up and down. Now I get it why Luke says not to buy gaming laptops...

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1 hour ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

It does that. The max fast boost is 90W as far as I remember, and the lower one is 65W. Completely stupid and nonsense. Disabling turbo boost at least makes it run consistently, otherwise the entire system freezes when throttling with frequency going up and down. Now I get it why Luke says not to buy gaming laptops...

Yeah, the cooling solution sounds like shit if it's that bad. I doubt it would fare much better with a Ryzen processor if it's really that bad.

 

Sadly, a lot of gaming laptops have mediocre cooling solutions. My old ASUS GL502 had a pitiful cooling system.

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

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For the vast majority of users that work off the battery for light duty work (Browser and Office apps), GDI performance is functionally the most important. I don't care how many CPU cycles you've got to burn per watt. If the Windows GUI feels sluggish in visual transitions, that's a problem.

So throttling the CPU on battery is perfectly acceptable. Just don't throttle the iGPU / APU.

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12 minutes ago, StDragon said:

For the vast majority of users that work off the battery for light duty work (Browser and Office apps), GDI performance is functionally the most important. I don't care how many CPU cycles you've got to burn per watt. If the Windows GUI feels sluggish in visual transitions, that's a problem.

So throttling the CPU on battery is perfectly acceptable. Just don't throttle the iGPU / APU.

Wonder if that's what's causing the sluggish performance on the Blade 14 off the charger.

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

SoC: Exynos 8895 | GPU: ARM Mali G71 MP20 | RAM: 6GB LPDDR4 | Storage: 64GB internal + 128GB microSD | Display: 6.3" 1440p "Infinity Display" AMOLED | OS: Android Pie 9.0 w/ OneUI

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7 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

Wonder if that's what's causing the sluggish performance on the Blade 14 off the charger.

Difficult to say. If it's using just the APU, then perhaps. But if video is going out through a dGPU (Nvidia), then perhaps power management is hobbling it.

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4 hours ago, StDragon said:

Difficult to say. If it's using just the APU, then perhaps. But if video is going out through a dGPU (Nvidia), then perhaps power management is hobbling it.

Some users report that the Blade 14 can feel somewhat sluggish off the charger in the Windows desktop. 

 

So APU throttling? 

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

SoC: Exynos 8895 | GPU: ARM Mali G71 MP20 | RAM: 6GB LPDDR4 | Storage: 64GB internal + 128GB microSD | Display: 6.3" 1440p "Infinity Display" AMOLED | OS: Android Pie 9.0 w/ OneUI

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8 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

Some users report that the Blade 14 can feel somewhat sluggish off the charger in the Windows desktop. 

 

So APU throttling? 

The Nvidia implementation of switchable graphics based on battery or AC profile is called Optimus. I'm not sure if such an animal exists when working with AMD APUs.

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On 7/11/2021 at 4:32 AM, D13H4RD said:

Pretty much. I don't think either philosophy is wrong, necessarily, just a bit perplexed as to why there isn't much information on this until recently. Especially the SSD throttling as that bit is new.

I don't think it's that new.  There have been power settings on every laptop I've owned and I crank mine up most of the time.  Battery life is a function of power draw, longer battery life sells. 

I think the newest part is nitpicking test results for such trivial things.  98% of people would not notice the difference under regular use.  Nobody buys a laptop for it's blistering speed either, just having an SSD is a treat. 

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4 hours ago, StDragon said:

The Nvidia implementation of switchable graphics based on battery or AC profile is called Optimus. I'm not sure if such an animal exists when working with AMD APUs.

There is but I forget the name of it 🤷‍♂️

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anyone here use ryzen controller on their laptop?

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11 hours ago, Heliian said:

I don't think it's that new.  There have been power settings on every laptop I've owned and I crank mine up most of the time.  Battery life is a function of power draw, longer battery life sells. 

I think the newest part is nitpicking test results for such trivial things.  98% of people would not notice the difference under regular use.  Nobody buys a laptop for it's blistering speed either, just having an SSD is a treat. 

I think another new part is how a lot of new Windows machines, especially from Tier-1 OEMs, have begun moving the power plans from the Windows Control Panel to whatever pre-installed utility is supplied by the OEM.

 

So it's possible that a lot of these tests were done with the power plan set to "Balanced", even with the slider set to whatever. I've noticed that those tend to have a larger impact on power draw.

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

SoC: Exynos 8895 | GPU: ARM Mali G71 MP20 | RAM: 6GB LPDDR4 | Storage: 64GB internal + 128GB microSD | Display: 6.3" 1440p "Infinity Display" AMOLED | OS: Android Pie 9.0 w/ OneUI

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8 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Dynamic Switchable Graphics

And whatever they used during the Windows 7 days (I think it was just switchable graphics - MR HD4250+HD5650 were a nice combo).

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On 7/11/2021 at 1:50 PM, D13H4RD said:

If you've been keeping track of Intel's notoriously petty and face-on-ground marketing, especially for Tiger Lake-based systems (especially when it came to the "Evo" branding), you'd probably see a slide not unlike the one below, where Intel was claiming AMD gets its battery performance claims because it's putting a muzzle on how fast it can go when away from the charger.

intel_11th_vs_ryzen_4000u-100886359-large.thumb.jpg.fa6ad5d086e268e453f3ad4e88422ca0.jpg

This was on a Zen 2-based Renoir APU, and Intel rather cheekily (and quite obviously) left out the fact that its boost behavior does result in higher battery drain during such periods. Now though, with a brand-new lineup of Zen 3-based Cezanne APUs and lots of high-end designs that utilize the best of AMD, one question that some have is whether boosting behavior has been tweaked?

 

Well, it hasn't, not by much anyway.

 

Tests by Gordon Ung noted that while the Ryzen 5800U has shown to smoke the Intel Core i7 1185G7 in many tasks, many of which were while the laptop is connected to AC power. When running on battery, the script does flip, sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot.

 

344155949_ZomboDroid11072021155405.thumb.jpg.3c8bf1c707c590bf422d14f11a47e026.jpg

 

1775502092_ZomboDroid11072021155845.thumb.jpg.5d64d4774be052a5451d3de0a3672c38.jpg

 

525933097_ZomboDroid11072021155710.thumb.jpg.597d0720c610037a6756c1569d99b5f4.jpg

 

The delta isn't massive when in the "Best Performance" preset, with around a 20-25%-ish performance delta between plugged and unplugged, though the delta between plugged and unplugged when on the "Better Battery" preset is quite significant, though perhaps not entirely unexpected.

 

It's also worth noting that the Intel machine doesn't keep that performance for nothing, as it does chug down quite a lot more watts in bursts in order to maintain that level of performance when off the charger.

battery_discharge_cinebench-100886190-large.thumb.jpg.9360d3ef4808be1ddb629f3ac538f3fc.jpgbattery_discharge_webxprt3-100886191-large.thumb.jpg.ab8495e31e7953fa7ce77cc9143bed41.jpg

 

 

Interestingly, Daniel Rubino of Windows Central noted that the SSD is also throttled when on battery, due to a feature called PCIe Speed Power Policy (PCPP).

 

My thoughts (this is going to be a long one, but you all need to read this!)

The big question that I'm sure many would be asking right now is "Is AMD wrong in doing this?"

 

And the answer is a big straight-up no. What AMD is doing is effectively not that much different from many older laptops, where off-charger performance is significantly hampered in an effort to conserve energy, particularly as processors of that era have not reached the level of performance-per-watt that current-generation designs have managed to achieve. In fact, some of the bench graphs show that Intel does also throttle performance a bit when off the charger, particularly in lightened workloads.

 

And it is definitely worth noting that while these charts do indeed show a drastic drop-off especially in the "Better Battery" mode, it is important to note the context, in which these involve ultra-portable low-wattage laptops. It's more likely that a user would be doing tasks like browsing the web or doing document work on such a machine, where the additional responsiveness of Intel's boost behavior may not be as apparent, but battery saving measures, even at the cost of performance, may be more appreciated. Even Gordon makes that case in his article.

Neither AMD and Intel have a straight up "wrong" strategy here, moreso that they are very different. Intel is very clearly focused on responsiveness at the expense of outright efficiency, whilst AMD is perfectly happy to ease off the pedal significantly in order to gain more work-per-watt. Depending on your priorities, you might find one or the other more appealing.

 

With that said, here is where I get a bit more opiniated and personal. While I perfectly understand each company's reasoning for what they're doing, I am disappointed that there is no real way to fully adjust the way they behave through Windows' power settings. Intel's power consumption spikes are significantly calmer when in "Better Battery", but not usually by a big amount, whilst AMD's performance improves in "Best Performance", there's no real way to fully lift off the muzzle if, for whatever reason, you need all the CPU performance off-the-charger to finish off some work, such as editing photos on Lightroom.

 

While neither philosophies are straight-up wrong, I'm disappointed that I can't really have the option of straight up gimping performance significantly when I need to conserve my watts, or going full-ham on battery when I need to finish off that landscape photograph on Lightroom.

 

Sources

Tested: Is Ryzen 5000 battery performance really that bad?

Some AMD laptops reduce system performance for better battery life, but is that OK?

I mean I bought an HP omen 15 just a few weeks before CES, it has a 5600H and a 1660Ti. And It is one of the best machines out there as it has both the power and the battery life (I got 9-10 hours on regular usage which is pretty good). The Intel laptops which have a D-GPU like a 60series or higher card don't have the battery life when even using the integrated GPU, in fact at the time I bought it. The Intel i7-1085something something was on sale for the same price but since it runs much hotter and doesn't have decent battery life I didn't buy it. The average AMD buyer buys the machine for the efficiency and power not just power

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This could expain why my Ryzen 2500U was skipping sound and desync video in MPC-HC when I tried watching on battery... As soon as it was plugged, all was fine.

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10 hours ago, RejZoR said:

This could expain why my Ryzen 2500U was skipping sound and desync video in MPC-HC when I tried watching on battery... As soon as it was plugged, all was fine.

With my rog lap I reinstalled Windows 10 but to pro cause I thought something was messing up lol did get rid of bloat though and didn't reinstall many of the rog stuff too

 

Then found ryzen controller to be very useful also 

 

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For a Ryzen 2k and 4k mobile owner this is not even close to surprising. Its always been like this to conserve battery. If it has to it will burst hard but will stay in the low 1 Ghz range to preserve battery life 

Primary Laptop (Gearsy MK4): Ryzen 9 5900HX, RX 6800M, Vega 8 Mobile, 24 GB DDR4 2400 Mhz, 512 GB SSD, 15.6 in 300 Hz IPS display

2021 Asus ROG Strix G15 Advantage Edition

 

Secondary Laptop (Gearsy MK2): Ryzen 5 2500U, Vega 8 Mobile, 12 GB 2400 Mhz DDR4, 256 GB NVME SSD, 15.6" 1080p IPS Touchscreen 

2017 HP Envy X360 15z (Ryzen)

 

PC (Gearsy): A6 3650, HD 6530D , 8 GB 1600 Mhz Kingston DDR3, Some Random Mobo Lol, EVGA 450W BT PSU, Stock Cooler, 128 GB Kingston SSD, 1 TB WD Blue 7200 RPM

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Also im happy to answer any Ryzen Mobile questions if anyone is interested! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 7/13/2021 at 6:01 PM, Justaphysicsnerd said:

I mean I bought an HP omen 15 just a few weeks before CES, it has a 5600H and a 1660Ti. And It is one of the best machines out there as it has both the power and the battery life (I got 9-10 hours on regular usage which is pretty good). The Intel laptops which have a D-GPU like a 60series or higher card don't have the battery life when even using the integrated GPU, in fact at the time I bought it. The Intel i7-1085something something was on sale for the same price but since it runs much hotter and doesn't have decent battery life I didn't buy it. The average AMD buyer buys the machine for the efficiency and power not just power

10 hours on that machine is pretty good. I average around 7-8 on my 1135G7-equipped machine, likely due to the smaller 50Wh battery. 

 

This figure was attainable if I put a muzzle on the processor so that it didn't go ham on the turbo through the use of a power saver plan. In balanced mode, I got closer to 5 hours. 

 

If AMD had let the processor run in a similar way to my 1135G7 on balanced, the battery life differences would probably even out. Because they didn't, they were able to squeeze extra hours out of the battery, even though performance was sacrificed as a result, but in terms of perceived performance, the difference shouldn't be noticeable. I certainly didn't have much issues using my muzzled 1135G7 for normal use. 

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

SoC: Exynos 8895 | GPU: ARM Mali G71 MP20 | RAM: 6GB LPDDR4 | Storage: 64GB internal + 128GB microSD | Display: 6.3" 1440p "Infinity Display" AMOLED | OS: Android Pie 9.0 w/ OneUI

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Honestly I feel that AMD has the better approach to this in terms of how the vast majority of people would want and expect their laptop to function. If I want to play games or do heavy workloads, I'm going to plug in. If I'm on battery, I probably won't be doing much more than browsing the web or typing up a document. Frankly, I thought that all laptops operated like that, before Intel started pointing fingers at AMD for doing something obvious. Even my tech-illiterate family plugs in their laptop if they want to do anything intensive.

 

I guess you could say that phones operate in an opposite manner, running faster when on battery, but that's for a different reason. If a phone is charging its battery and running at maximum power, it's going to heat up very quickly to the point where it might even become too hot to touch. But laptops operate differently, and that thermal argument is generally irrelevant because you don't hold your laptop by the battery.

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6 hours ago, GalacticRuler said:

Honestly I feel that AMD has the better approach to this in terms of how the vast majority of people would want and expect their laptop to function. If I want to play games or do heavy workloads, I'm going to plug in. If I'm on battery, I probably won't be doing much more than browsing the web or typing up a document. Frankly, I thought that all laptops operated like that, before Intel started pointing fingers at AMD for doing something obvious. Even my tech-illiterate family plugs in their laptop if they want to do anything intensive.

Yep, that's the way it usually has been. 

 

Though I will admit, having a laptop that largely maintains its performance off the charger has been nice for photo-editing on the go, especially in places where charge points aren't easy to come by, but I also understand that my usecase is quite specific. 

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Intel's approach is any more or less "wrong", or "correct". It's just different, so they really shouldn't claim superiority, especially if they have to sacrifice runtime for it. 

The Workhorse (AMD-powered custom desktop)

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X | GPU: MSI X Trio GeForce RTX 2070S | RAM: XPG Spectrix D60G 32GB DDR4-3200 | Storage: 512GB XPG SX8200P + 2TB 7200RPM Seagate Barracuda Compute | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro

 

The Portable Station (Intel-powered Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i)

CPU: Intel Core i5 1135G7 | GPU: Intel Iris Xe 80CU | RAM: 16GB LPDDR4X-4267 | Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD | OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home

 

The Communicator (Exynos-powered Samsung Galaxy Note8)

SoC: Exynos 8895 | GPU: ARM Mali G71 MP20 | RAM: 6GB LPDDR4 | Storage: 64GB internal + 128GB microSD | Display: 6.3" 1440p "Infinity Display" AMOLED | OS: Android Pie 9.0 w/ OneUI

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26 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

Yep, that's the way it usually has been. 

 

Though I will admit, having a laptop that largely maintains its performance off the charger has been nice for photo-editing on the go, especially in places where charge points aren't easy to come by, but I also understand that my usecase is quite specific. 

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Intel's approach is any more or less "wrong", or "correct". It's just different, so they really shouldn't claim superiority, especially if they have to sacrifice runtime for it. 

Yeah, I'm not trying to say that Intel's approach is "wrong," more pointing out that Intel's tactics in singling out AMD for their approach is really just underhanded, especially when a larger portion of laptop users benefit from the latter's approach.

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