AMD fTPM causing random stuttering.

[TomaThePolliwog]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:56 PM, ShockSA said:

try the beta bios for ASUS maybe it will fix it for you.

Is there one later than Version 2423?

https://rog.asus.com/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-b550-e-gaming-model/helpdesk_bios

[AkikoKumagara]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:15 PM, Nyamp said:

Zero stutters after that BIOS update, I installed the latest chipset drivers, the new NVIDIA drivers with official Win11 support and the latest Win11 Cumulative Update (22000.194).

 

All stable!

I wonder if, for some reason, the new BIOS only fixes the issue on Windows 11, then. I'm still running Win 10 on an MSI board, and still stuttering. It's so infrequent but so irritating.

[dpeter]

17 hours ago, Soph3D said:

I wonder if, for some reason, the new BIOS only fixes the issue on Windows 11, then. I'm still running Win 10 on an MSI board, and still stuttering. It's so infrequent but so irritating.

MSI released the A84 Beta BIOS yesterday, maybe it will fix the issue. I haven't tried it yet, im playing the long game o patience. Already rolled back to windows 10 and disabled ftpm.

[AkikoKumagara]

15 hours ago, dpeter said:

MSI released the A84 Beta BIOS yesterday, maybe it will fix the issue. I haven't tried it yet, im playing the long game o patience. Already rolled back to windows 10 and disabled ftpm.

Can confirm that it's, unfortunately, still happening (at least on Windows 10).

[GameDr04]

I just wanted to chime in here, since this issue has plagued my very existence since June.

I can also confirm that the fTPM in my system is causing these massive stutters. I stream on Twitch and when they happen during streams, my chat says it looks like I dropped a bunch of frames. Though weirdly, OBS doesn't report any dropped frames.

 

Relevant components:

• ROG Strix TRX40-E

• Threadripper 3960X

• nVidia 2080 SUPER (ROG)

The new BIOS (1502) says "Support Windows 11 by default" but that seems to mean nothing.

 

I've been running Windows 11 since the leak back in June and was forced to turn on fTPM in order to install ISOs from UUP Dump.

It's maddening. And I hate it. I spent a long time Googling it but I was clearly not describing it well enough because I only found this thread yesterday.

 

I bought the Asus discreet TPM on Newegg yesterday; it'll arrive next week. I will disable my fTPM and install the dTPM then let you know if that made a difference. Presumably it should be the solution to this insane problem, but one never knows.

[Sete]

35 minutes ago, GameDr04 said:

I just wanted to chime in here, since this issue has plagued my very existence since June.

I can also confirm that the fTPM in my system is causing these massive stutters. I stream on Twitch and when they happen during streams, my chat says it looks like I dropped a bunch of frames. Though weirdly, OBS doesn't report any dropped frames.

 

Relevant components:

• ROG Strix TRX40-E

• Threadripper 3960X

• nVidia 2080 SUPER (ROG)

The new BIOS (1502) says "Support Windows 11 by default" but that seems to mean nothing.

 

I've been running Windows 11 since the leak back in June and was forced to turn on fTPM in order to install ISOs from UUP Dump.

It's maddening. And I hate it. I spent a long time Googling it but I was clearly not describing it well enough because I only found this thread yesterday.

 

I bought the Asus discreet TPM on Newegg yesterday; it'll arrive next week. I will disable my fTPM and install the dTPM then let you know if that made a difference. Presumably it should be the solution to this insane problem, but one never knows.

Regardless of the result, don't let us give your feedback. I'm thinking about buying a module if that solves the problem.

[AkikoKumagara]

1 hour ago, GameDr04 said:

I bought the Asus discreet TPM on Newegg yesterday; it'll arrive next week. I will disable my fTPM and install the dTPM then let you know if that made a difference. Presumably it should be the solution to this insane problem, but one never knows.

Yeah, there's no reason to believe this should affect discrete TPMs. I'm pretty sure this issue is exclusive to firmware TPM.

 

I tried a few more small things like clearing my TPM from within Windows to no avail.

 

I looked into getting a discrete TPM as well, but the 14-1 pin MSI module needed for my board seems to only be available for around $60 to $80 USD which is pretty absurd. I haven't found a generic equivalent except for one sketchy clone on AliExpress that's also still like $50 USD.

[GameDr04]

8 hours ago, Soph3D said:

Yeah, there's no reason to believe this should affect discrete TPMs. I'm pretty sure this issue is exclusive to firmware TPM.

I have knocked on wood.

 

8 hours ago, Soph3D said:

available for around $60 to $80 USD which is pretty absurd.

I don't think I could bring myself to spend $80 - that's definitely outrageous.

Mine cost $50 which is still outrageous but at this point, it's worth it to me if it stops this issue and allows me to continue to run Windows 11. (I suspect I'd suffer from severe FOMO if I weren't able to run Windows 11...)

Also, I earn a not-insignificant amount on Twitch and I feel pretty unprofessional with unpredictable stutters interrupting my streams, so that helps to justify the expenditure.

[GameDr04]

3 hours ago, Nacht said:

So discrete tpm fixes this while tpm via cpu is glitchy ?

I certainly hope so, otherwise I'm largely out of options. Asus has already released a Windows 11-centric BIOS which has done nothing to alleviate the stuttering. Unless they release yet another one that actually fixes it, the dTPM is my only solution.

My discrete TPM arrives early next week and when it does, I'll report back.

[AkikoKumagara]

4 hours ago, Nacht said:

So discrete tpm fixes this while tpm via cpu is glitchy ?

Well, we'll find out for sure when @GameDr04
gets his module, I guess, but it seems likely. I'm pretty convinced this is an issue specific to fTPM and have only seen users of AMD fTPM mention anything like this.

[meemz]

its October and this still has not been fixed, and almost nobody else is talking about it.

windows 11 comes out in less than a week, what a mess.

how long will it take for anyone with proper tools to look into this? 

[dpeter]

My MSI mobo has a 12 pin TPM header, will any 12pin TPM work on it?

[AkikoKumagara]

1 hour ago, meemz said:

its October and this still has not been fixed, and almost nobody else is talking about it.

windows 11 comes out in less than a week, what a mess.

how long will it take for anyone with proper tools to look into this? 

I've suggested to LTT to make a video on this subject. It's about to become a big deal since Windows 11 will prompt a lot more people to enable fTPM and find this.

 

41 minutes ago, dpeter said:

My MSI mobo has a 12 pin TPM header, will any 12pin TPM work on it?

Nope. At least not usually. Different manufacturers use different pinouts in most cases. You have to find one with the proper pinout, which probably means only MSI's or a compatible clone of MSI's.

[BossRice]

Anyone try this ? 

Microsoft VBS apparently cripples gaming performance in Windows 11 even on supported CPUs : Windows11 (reddit.com)

[NimjaIV]

I've disabled my fTPM for now, but I have a thought about how we might possibly get some concrete data on the problem. Those who still have the problem, could you keep task manager open in the background and see what the stutters look like in terms of CPU performance? Like does the CPU jump to 100% utilization when it happens, or does it show any other odd behaviours? 

 

Also there's this program called Latencymon that might give some more data on what happens when the stutters occur, but I'm not quite sure whether it'll show anything useful. If someone doesn't mind, could you install the program and just see whether it gives any useful info when the stutters happen? 

 

Ultimately I think AMD is the one who'll have to solve this problem, because I don't think it happens on intel CPUs. And for them to fix it we need to give them some diagnostic data. 

[dpeter]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:20 PM, Soph3D said:

I've suggested to LTT to make a video on this subject. It's about to become a big deal since Windows 11 will prompt a lot more people to enable fTPM and find this.

 

Nope. At least not usually. Different manufacturers use different pinouts in most cases. You have to find one with the proper pinout, which probably means only MSI's or a compatible clone of MSI's.

I found a clone on aliexpress but i have too much pride to give in now hahah I still believe in a fix for this

[meemz]

I have not even touched w11 so I wanna ask about something, if you enable TPM, install w11 and then after its all running, take out the TPM module or disable fTPM, does w11 work like normal or does it stop working?

[Zips]

12 hours ago, meemz said:

I have not even touched w11 so I wanna ask about something, if you enable TPM, install w11 and then after its all running, take out the TPM module or disable fTPM, does w11 work like normal or does it stop working?

I haven't tried myself, but from my understanding it should still work. You may need to set up things like biometric logins or your PIN again if you use those to login. In fact, Microsoft has even said that you can install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. However, you may not get important updates if you go this route and may have to manually update or install with each major feature update they release.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/28/22646035/microsoft-windows-11-iso-workaround-no-update-guarantee

 

As for me and this issue, I'm still waiting to see if Gigabyte gets a new BIOS update that fixes this. They have one in beta but it apparently has nothing related to a fix so I'm not going to try it (and I just don't want to try a beta bios release).

 

I'm also considering the discreet TPM module if it ends up working well for that other user here. Of course, with W10 being supported until 2025, that's hopefully enough time for the modules to get back in stock and at reasonable prices.

[meemz]

8 minutes ago, Zips said:

I haven't tried myself, but from my understanding it should still work. You may need to set up things like biometric logins or your PIN again if you use those to login. In fact, Microsoft has even said that you can install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. However, you may not get important updates if you go this route and may have to manually update or install with each major feature update they release.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/28/22646035/microsoft-windows-11-iso-workaround-no-update-guarantee

 

As for me and this issue, I'm still waiting to see if Gigabyte gets a new BIOS update that fixes this. They have one in beta but it apparently has nothing related to a fix so I'm not going to try it (and I just don't want to try a beta bios release).

 

I'm also considering the discreet TPM module if it ends up working well for that other user here. Of course, with W10 being supported until 2025, that's hopefully enough time for the modules to get back in stock and at reasonable prices.

I see, I was wondering about this because I usually don't update to the latest windows version as soon as its out because ms has fucked some updates pretty bad in the past, I technically have supported hardware I just cant use TPM because of this dumb issue, so in theory I could just enable it, update when I want to, and then turn it off again.

[GameDr04]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, NimjaIV said:

I've disabled my fTPM for now, but I have a thought about how we might possibly get some concrete data on the problem. Those who still have the problem, could you keep task manager open in the background and see what the stutters look like in terms of CPU performance? Like does the CPU jump to 100% utilization when it happens, or does it show any other odd behaviours? 

 

Also there's this program called Latencymon that might give some more data on what happens when the stutters occur, but I'm not quite sure whether it'll show anything useful. If someone doesn't mind, could you install the program and just see whether it gives any useful info when the stutters happen? 

 

Ultimately I think AMD is the one who'll have to solve this problem, because I don't think it happens on intel CPUs. And for them to fix it we need to give them some diagnostic data. 

I've been doing both of those things for months. By pure chance, my fan curves were right at the threshold and every single time that stutter occurred, I could hear my fans ramp up to the next level so the CPU was definitely spiking. Only once did I happen to see my Task Manager quickly enough to see that SysMain (formerly SuperFetch) was pegged.

Naturally, I disabled that and believed that I had solved my problem. Sadly, that did not address it.

 

Latencymon was mostly unaffected by the stutters, but it did present what I now believe to be a red herring.

Before a stutter, the DPC time was bound to ntoskrnl.exe. After a stutter: nvlddmkm.sys (NVIDIA Windows Kernel Mode Driver). I have since tried many versions of the nVidia driver to no avail.

Either way, though, is ISR time stayed at or below 69μs (nice) and DPC at or below 80μs.

 

It's almost like we're witnessing a time dilation from the outside. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if a stutter occurred while I was streaming, my chat would describe it as "dropped frames" but OBS and the system at-large reported no problems at all.

[GameDr04]

1 hour ago, meemz said:

I see, I was wondering about this because I usually don't update to the latest windows version as soon as its out because ms has fucked some updates pretty bad in the past, I technically have supported hardware I just cant use TPM because of this dumb issue, so in theory I could just enable it, update when I want to, and then turn it off again.

I can mostly confirm that this works in-practice. After Windows 11 is installed, disabling fTPM doesn't affect me most of the time. I still choose to use a password when logging in because it makes VNC access a lot more reliable so I don't have to deal with the PIN or Hello™-based login issues thereafter.

 

I had it turned off when I knew a new Insider update was coming down the pike and it kept failing. Only after I re-enabled my fTPM did the update succeed.
That's only one data point and even that could be coincidental, but it's a point nonetheless.

[Andre Lyra]

Once, installing the latest audio driver released for the motherboard resolved this kind of problem.

[GameDr04]

It's arrived and I have installed it.

 

*fingers crossed*

 

I disabled the fTPM in favor of the dTPM and my existing Windows 11 installation didn't complain at all but again, I use a password-based authentication and no Bitlocker so I'm not sure any part of my system should have noticed anyway.

 

In case anybody is curious, that third photo was taken to kind of show how much clearance there is between the dTPM and the bottom PCIe card. It's a SoundBlaster AE-9, for reference. In short: it's a pretty tight tolerance.

 

I'll keep you up-to-date.

[Zips]

Keeping my fingers crossed for good news.

[BossRice]

20 hours ago, Andre Lyra said:

e, installing the latest audio driver released for the motherboard resolved this kind of problem.

That help me too ^^.