Microsoft makes TPM issue worse: TPM 1.2 is actually NOT acceptable

[Tieox]

Just now, dizmo said:

It's almost like you guys think you have to switch right away. You don't. By the time they stop supporting 10 these requirements likely won't even be an issue. You're crying over nothing. 

 

Working through peeps I am fixing computers for, most are happy to remain on Win10 when the cut off arrives, those who prefer to stay updated are very interested in Ryzen APU based systems come the time.

 

My stress levels about 11 are dropping to suit now. 

[gjsman]

4 minutes ago, dizmo said:

It's almost like you guys think you have to switch right away. You don't. By the time they stop supporting 10 these requirements likely won't even be an issue. You're crying over nothing. 

 

But at the same time, he would have probably told you a Surface Studio 2 was a great purchase yesterday and thinks it's a great computer. Never mind Windows 11 doesn't support it even though Microsoft sells it right now and that you'll be out of support in four years. Is that a "real computer"? By his own logic, Surface Studio 2, $3500, which he recommends, isn't a real computer. 

 

It's just upsetting to see the shills who hyped us up for Windows 11 berating people instead of sympathizing or explaining their concerns, and then admit to not knowing what the actual part is or why anyone should be worried about it, but insist it must be unfounded. 

[D13H4RD]

To be honest, I'm not hyped for Windows 11.

 

Not that I think it's bad, but despite all the silliness with it, Windows 10 continues to be a decently reliable-enough operating system for my needs. It doesn't mean I won't be getting 11 at all. Both of my main computers (desktop and laptop) are fully compatible, but I also fully expect the first months to be a bit of a track-wreck, so there's no harm in waiting even over a year if I have to.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Womp. Womp. Then I guess people should continue trashing it until they give up, like they did with always-connected Xbox One.

[Beerzerker]

10 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Womp. Womp. Then I guess people should continue trashing it until they give up, like they did with always-connected Xbox One.

Then I guess that's why I got rid of the Xbox One I had (Because it was) right after getting it.
I had never used it and once I found out about the required account to use it for anything, on OR offline it had to go - And it did.

This new biz with TPM screams one day soon your PC will no longer be able to store anything on it locally, instead you'll have a "Workstation" type PC requiring a login as it is at work for example - No locally installed software, storage or anything aside from what it needs to reach out and connect to MS servers and "The Cloud" to function.

MS has always been big about networking, this is just the next level of taking control away from us and placing it in their hands with full access to any and everything you've got.

But forget about you knowing anything about MS's biz.... Or you getting rid of them.
That's a No-No.
 

[WolframaticAlpha]

19 hours ago, Mel0nMan said:

Ah, planned obsolescence.

Spoiler

 

Microsofts launch for 11 is semi disastrous. They really need to get a new pr guy. Too many mistakes and problems with the details. Apple may not give us details at launch, but at least what we know is properly presented. MS genuineky seems confused

 

10 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

MS has always been big about networking,

No. MS has been a great data collection enthusiast. Like Linus, but for your personal data instead of PCs

[D13H4RD]

37 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Womp. Womp. Then I guess people should continue trashing it until they give up, like they did with always-connected Xbox One.

The thing is that the always-online feature on the Xbox One never really had benefits, at least at that period. It came with far too many downsides for pretty much no return.

 

The TPM debacle at least has some advantages, notably better security. The main problem is that Microsoft has been very poorly communicating about the whole thing.

[Kisai]

6 hours ago, Bitter said:

So no 11 for my HTPC with 4th gen Haswell/Z87? Ok. I'm so sad now. Boo Hoo.

Eh, I've been itching to rebuild it with either an AMD APU, a low power G series APU, maybe a full fat Ryzen CPU, or maybe some crazy re-socketed Intel mobile CPU for desktop again, and maybe a new case too. I want something weird for my HTPC again! Maybe in a few years when 8th/9th/10th gen parts are getting the 'magic reform' treatment if they ever do, they're on the 6th/7th gen at the moment.

 

Anyone know if OEM Win10 keys are eligible to upgrade to 11 free?

I reinstalled Windows from my Haswell to Rocket Lake board by re-entering the Windows 7 key I had originally installed it with. 

 

That said, moving the NVMe drive I had bought earlier to it, would boot it and didn't request activation, but I had to reinstall the OS anyway because the MBR was on the wrong drive.

[theswweet]

I do hope we get some transparency about how TPM will actually be used. Will BitLocker be required, now? That'll be a pain in the ass for PC upgrades.

[Beerzerker]

1 hour ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

  Reveal hidden contents

No. MS has been a great data collection enthusiast. Like Linus, but for your personal data instead of PCs

I get what you mean but what I meant was networking has always been one of their things to do and have in Windows since networking began.
They are now using it more than ever to get your data and all else they can.
 

[Techie5879]

12 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Then I guess that's why I got rid of the Xbox One I had (Because it was) right after getting it.
I had never used it and once I found out about the required account to use it for anything, on OR offline it had to go - And it did.

This new biz with TPM screams one day soon your PC will no longer be able to store anything on it locally, instead you'll have a "Workstation" type PC requiring a login as it is at work for example - No locally installed software, storage or anything aside from what it needs to reach out and connect to MS servers and "The Cloud" to function.

MS has always been big about networking, this is just the next level of taking control away from us and placing it in their hands with full access to any and everything you've got.

But forget about you knowing anything about MS's biz.... Or you getting rid of them.
That's a No-No.
 

This is my concern too after the last WAN show talking about it. Nothing being locally installed and everything just being in "The Cloud". It just seems like customers are losing options by the day. W11 Home already requires you to have a MS account during first time setup and also the start menu now searches OneDrive too. Its already being integrated and I dont know how far we are from actually being fully cloud based but I dont like this at all. 

 

Also, the seemingly(?) arbitrary bar of 8th Gen and Zen+ being the hard low bar seems like a shit move. You're telling me a 7700k cannot run Windows 11?

[hishnash]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:44 AM, gjsman said:

I wish. But it appears BitLocker will remain a Pro-only feature. Microsoft Devs said the TPM requirement enables "future scenarios" apparently.

It is possible that they are using pasgsphraseless bit locker, it provides some protection in the situation were someone steals just the hard drive and not the entire machine ... By why not just let users enable BitLocker on all versions of the OS come on.

 

On 6/26/2021 at 10:49 AM, gjsman said:

Apple has not shipped Macs with TPMs since 2006, and the Macs that had TPMs didn't have drivers to actually use them but I could be incorrect on that.

I believe your correct Apple have never bothered with TMP the security of the T1 and T2 chips provided is much better since they decryption key never leaves these chips (so is not exposed to CPU bugs that might leak data in memory/cache).  T2 acts as the SSD controllers and does the encryption/decryption within itself, it also does a load of secure boot stuff around validating the UEFI has not been modified, also enables the DMA memory protection before PCIe and TB devices are started up (a big security issue on most machine with TMPs is that you can load/flash modified UEFI and read the decryption keys).  

With T1 and T2 chips the secure boot (signature validation) only applied to macOS. With M1 macs however you can `bless` any kernel you like and thus enable secure boot for third party operating systems (or versions of the macOS kernel that you have modified yourself).  Disk encryption on T2 macs is always turned on using a random key stored within the T2 but user PW based encryption was only available for macOS. 

[Fetzie]

My motherboard has a TPM 2.0 header. Can I buy any TPM 2.0 daughterboard or do I have to go with one made by my motherboard's manufacturer?

[Murasaki]

41 minutes ago, Fetzie said:

My motherboard has a TPM 2.0 header. Can I buy any TPM 2.0 daughterboard or do I have to go with one made by my motherboard's manufacturer?

First check if your UEFI bios has an option for firmware TPM. Intel PTT or AMD fTPM depending on your motherboard/CPU.

[RejZoR]

I have a laptop that has TPM 2.0 built in. But has Ryzen 2500U processor which means no Windows 11. LMAO. This whole thing is such a monumental shitshow it's unbelievable. Imagine having Ryzen 1800X, what's considered a very modern 8 core, 16 thread CPU. Yet you can't install Windows 11 on it because despite it having TPM 2.0 the CPU itself is not supported at all. LMAO.

[gal-m]

22 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Imagine having Ryzen 1800X, what's considered a very modern 8 core, 16 thread CPU. Yet you can't install Windows 11 on it because despite it having TPM 2.0 the CPU itself is not supported at all.

True @RejZoR.

Now imagine trying to sell that system in two or three years and getting told it's basically worthless (to most people) since it's lifespan has basically ended.

 

What a brilliant way to boost demand for electronics, brainwash clueless customers with pointless advertisements for future computer components ("Windows 11 ready/compatible") and create a BUNCH of pointless electronic waste. gg MS.

For the vast majority of people the processing power of modern chips simply isn't needed.. I personally think that in reference to the general public Moore's law for CPU performance begins to fail since the normal user just doesn't need the power of an e.g. 5600X. Basically, it's not like in the old days when every new generation meant that the previous one rolled back into the stone age. Instead CPU's nowadays REALLY do tend to last for a VERY VERY long time for most people. It's unoptimized software, lack of updates and slow storage that makes the clueless customer feel like their system is getting old.

Thus I believe that this move by Microsoft is cause for concern in regards to a potentially massive boost of electronic waste generation in the next few years  

 

[CRWND_12]

On 6/26/2021 at 6:33 AM, Blademaster91 said:

It seems like Microsoft is forcing TPM 2.0 in order to get people to replace their PCs, Intel 7th gen and Ryzen 1000 series are still powerful CPUs.

Hopefully the workaround for secureboot and TPM works in the release version, but its still going to be a complete nightmare for anyone in IT managing hardware that isn't recent.

even 6th gen Intel Processors too

[SolarNova]

It almost as if they want people to make custom pirated versions of W11 with TPM detection disabled

 

 

 

[dizmo]

9 hours ago, Tieox said:

Working through peeps I am fixing computers for, most are happy to remain on Win10 when the cut off arrives, those who prefer to stay updated are very interested in Ryzen APU based systems come the time.

 

My stress levels about 11 are dropping to suit now. 

4 years is a long time. There's still people running Windows 7. I don't imagine it's going to be a huge issue for a vast majority of people. Hell, I'd almost look forward to not having Windows restart my PC for me when I don't want it to, to install updates.

9 hours ago, gjsman said:

But at the same time, he would have probably told you a Surface Studio 2 was a great purchase yesterday and thinks it's a great computer. Never mind Windows 11 doesn't support it even though Microsoft sells it right now and that you'll be out of support in four years. Is that a "real computer"? By his own logic, Surface Studio 2, $3500, which he recommends, isn't a real computer. 

 

It's just upsetting to see the shills who hyped us up for Windows 11 berating people instead of sympathizing or explaining their concerns, and then admit to not knowing what the actual part is or why anyone should be worried about it, but insist it must be unfounded. 

I have no idea who you're referring to when you say "he."

[Tieox]

25 minutes ago, dizmo said:

4 years is a long time. There's still people running Windows 7. I don't imagine it's going to be a huge issue for a vast majority of people. Hell, I'd almost look forward to not having Windows restart my PC for me when I don't want it to, to install updates.

I have no idea who you're referring to when you say "he."

One computer I am decommissioning soon still runs Windows XP and is on the internet daily!

[kvuj]

This is so weird. Microsoft is the king of backwards compatibility. They decided to keep hacks in their NT kernel for specific games in order to keep binary compatibility... yet they will now require a 7th gen Intel and TPM 2.0? This makes no sense whatsoever. They are throwing their only advantage under the bus.

 

You're not Apple, Microsoft. You don't have a zealous following of people willing to scrap their PCs every 5 years and developers not caring about having their app break every update.

 

On 6/25/2021 at 7:21 PM, Radium_Angel said:

If the devs on *nix are smart, they are watching this Charlie Foxtrot unfold with great interest, and will pick up the ball since MS doesn't seem interested in supporting "older" hardware.

Sadly, I'm not sure people will want to switch to Linux. The average desktop user is probably going to keep using their outdated OS simply because they don't want to learn a new OS. Linux is different and that is off-putting to most people (coming from a die hard linux user of 6 years).

 

Similar to previous updates, Microsoft will probably officially end support in 2025, yet keep sending critical updates for a while.

[Sarra]

Well, my issue is having older hardware. I've got a Haswell based Xeon box that won't be supported by Win 11. I have Win 10 Pro running on it. All that machine does is run a file server, play youtube videos, and run a print server. The hardware is really not having any problems, so if I'm forced to choose between going with all new hardware, running an unsupported OS, or switching over to Linux, I probably will actually switch to Linux.

 

The biggest part of Win 11 that really pisses me off is the microsoft account. What the fuck, I'm using Windows because it isn't Apple. If it literally just turns into Apple 2.0, then what incentive is there to use it? I hated to be forced to upgrade to Win 10 from 8.1, I loved 8.1 and it worked REALLY WELL for me. I had a really rough and rocky start with Win 10, and actually upgraded back to 8.1 when my original foray into Win 10 was halted by a failed hard drive.

 

I have 3 machines. Only one will be 'officially' supported by the current Win 11 requirements. Replacing 2/3 of my home network just because of an OS "update" is ridiculous. It also really pisses me off that Microsoft claimed the Win 10 would be "the last version of Windows", though I never believed that.

 

Now, if the Pro version doesn't require the 8th gen Intel or newer thing and I can keep running it on my old hardware, and there is a workaround (*cough*) for the required Microsoft account, then I might actually be okay with it. But as it is, I'm probably going to stick with Win 10 until it's EOL and no longer getting security updates. That is, as long as Microsoft doesn't do a forced update on all of my machines and effectively brick two of them.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Sarra said:

The biggest part of Win 11 that really pisses me off is the Microsoft account.

As of now, it's reported that only applies to Home edition. Pro edition will still allow for the creation of local user accounts.

 

 

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, kvuj said:

You're not Apple, Microsoft. You don't have a zealous following of people willing to scrap their PCs every 5 years and developers not caring about having their app break every update.

 

Not getting the latest OS big version number does not mean scrap a device, as long as security patches are still being provided i think you can consider devices to be  supported.  Apple are still pushing security updates for macs sold in 2010, and MS will continue to provide security updates for another 4 to 5 years for windows 10. Devices purchased within the last 4 years should easily be able to adopt windows 11 so MS is really offering at least 9+ years of OS support that is not at all bad.

[Sarra]

1 hour ago, StDragon said:

As of now, it's reported that only applies to Home edition. Pro edition will still allow for the creation of local user accounts.

 

 

Since I actually use and need the pro features, I would be getting pro anyway, so that actually makes it a bit more palatable to upgrade then,