Microsoft makes TPM issue worse: TPM 1.2 is actually NOT acceptable

[Doobeedoo]

It's like people always saying how they don't want to do basic OS updates let alone new OS and also even initially on release, but now this is a problem? It will be fine for most, not like old machines would miss much. In time people would buy new hardware anyway.

[Tieox]

8 hours ago, gjsman said:

Conspiracy Theory Time: Remember how Panos said out of the blue that "Intel is doing great things with their 11th gen CPUs!" Over on Reddit they were wondering how much Intel paid him to say that for no reason...

 

 

[Jin Alex]

Soemone said AMD Ryzen 2 gen and Intel Core 7 gen and later product of AMD and Intel is support for TMP 2.0.On last weekend, my Core i5-4460 and ASUS B85 tried to apply for Windows 11 but it showed can't run.I saw one ways of deal of TMP control is apply Windows 11 imagine unforced  in Win PE(which is popular in China)..

[Tieox]

13 minutes ago, Jin Alex said:

Soemone said AMD Ryzen 2 gen and Intel Core 7 gen and later product of AMD and Intel is support for TMP 2.0.On last weekend, my Core i5-4460 and ASUS B85 tried to apply for Windows 11 but it showed can't run.I saw one ways of deal of TMP control is apply Windows 11 imagine unforced  in Win PE(which is popular in China)..

Interesting idea, because afaik in China TPM's are banned?

[DrKondziu]

I know that I'm in minority, but I own laptop from 2013 and PC from 2008 (have few updates but processor is Q6600). I use this hardware everyday for gaming (yes it is big pain, but I find ways to manage it), and now because of this TPM I can't get newest Windows plus I have 2025 deadline. I was really exited for Sun Valley/Windows 11 update and now I'm super angry. 

[Bitter]

So no 11 for my HTPC with 4th gen Haswell/Z87? Ok. I'm so sad now. Boo Hoo.

Eh, I've been itching to rebuild it with either an AMD APU, a low power G series APU, maybe a full fat Ryzen CPU, or maybe some crazy re-socketed Intel mobile CPU for desktop again, and maybe a new case too. I want something weird for my HTPC again! Maybe in a few years when 8th/9th/10th gen parts are getting the 'magic reform' treatment if they ever do, they're on the 6th/7th gen at the moment.

 

Anyone know if OEM Win10 keys are eligible to upgrade to 11 free?

[Tieox]

2 minutes ago, Bitter said:

So no 11 for my HTPC with 4th gen Haswell/Z87? Ok. I'm so sad now. Boo Hoo.

Eh, I've been itching to rebuild it with either an AMD APU, a low power G series APU, maybe a full fat Ryzen CPU, or maybe some crazy re-socketed Intel mobile CPU for desktop again, and maybe a new case too. I want something weird for my HTPC again! Maybe in a few years when 8th/9th/10th gen parts are getting the 'magic reform' treatment if they ever do, they're on the 6th/7th gen at the moment.

 

Anyone know if OEM Win10 keys are eligible to upgrade to 11 free?

Given it's a free upgrade :

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/24/22546801/microsoft-windows-11-free-upgrade-details

 

Can't see why not. 

[Beerzerker]

10 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

The issue is that the hardware is only present in recent hardware, even then some cheaper motherboards don't have the option in bios, and everything older than Intel 8th gen or Ryzen 1st gen is going to be e-waste.

And forcing TPM 2.0 is pointless for Windows 11 home because it doesn't have bitlocker, forcing TPM is just marketing fluff and a blatant cashgrab from Microsoft.

I saw alot of this coming when Win 10 came out which is why back then I moved on to Linux. 
This isn't the first time MS has been behind trying to force us to a new Win version by hook or crook at our own expense.

The real hint I caught about these things was when for example:
If you had a copy of Win 7 and wanted to run it with Ryzen, by default you coudn't do that because the microcode in the chip itself blocks installs of chipset/USB drivers making the PC largely unuseable. The real proof of this microcode came after some figured out how to get around this, if you already had Win 7 working with everything, then decided later to upgrade the CPU to a newer one that would kick in and kill off most if not all your USB functionality. It happened to me so I know it's fact, not fiction. 
Attempts to reinstall the drivers would always fail even if I had popped the old chip back in, making it short of an entirely new OS install impossible to do.
And it's not like the OS or whatever else coudn't, it wasn't allowed to by default meaning they purposely tried to lock it down to force the OS upgrade. 

If you board did not have a full pair of PS2 ports or even a single PS2 port you were limited or effectively "Locked Out" of your own PC. The reliance on USB for everything is something I've never liked and also the weak link they were using to force upgrading, now they've moved on to an even worse tactic to force it.
In Win 10 you had forced updates, lack of user control out of the box with the OS itself, features you could not get rid of (Like that beyond annoying Cortana thing), user settings/preferences being changed or even zapped with each and every update and the same for drivers too getting borked.

And who's to say your TPM module drivers won't get nailed with a forced update too?
Just imagine trying to recover from that and it's not like you'd have any control (say) over it happening since it's a forced update.

The fact MS has began to do this, making these requirements known publicly was also an opportunity for the scalpers to have at it, just try to get one of these modules now for a fair price - You won't.

MS it seems, purposely likes to shat the bed and it's not getting any better anytime soon. Many have said "Enough is enough" and like myself back then, are now moving to Linux instead.
I've always refused to use Win 10 and now Win 11 and most likely Windows period from now on.

For those that may be wondering about Linux, two good distros to start with are Linux Mint and Peppermint, both have a "Very much like Windows" feel and use to them.
The only real caveat about Mint is with some of the newer/newest AMD GPU's it may not run them properly as it was with my Radeon VII but Peppermint picked it up and just ran it, no prob.
 

[Bitter]

Hey so anyone know what happens if you enable TPM in BIOS, install 11, then go back and disable TPM? Will it refuse to boot? Does it just inform you that some features are disabled now?

[Tieox]

1 minute ago, Beerzerker said:

I saw alot of this coming when Win 10 came out which is why back then I moved on to Linux. 
This isn't the first time MS has been behind trying to force us to a new Win version by hook or crook at our own expense.

The real hint I caught about these things was when for example:
If you had a copy of Win 7 and wanted to run it with Ryzen, by default you coudn't do that because the microcode in the chip itself blocks installs of chipset/USB drivers making the PC largely unuseable. The real proof of this microcode came after some figured out how to get around this, if you already had Win 7 working with everything, then decided later to upgrade the CPU to a newer one that would kick in and kill off most if not all your USB functionality. It happened to me so I know it's fact, not fiction. 
Attempts to reinstall the drivers would always fail even if I had popped the old chip back in, making it short of an entirely new OS install impossible to do.

If you board did not have a full pair of PS2 ports or even a single PS2 port you were limited or effectively "Locked Out" of your own PC. The reliance on USB for everything is something I've never liked and also the weak link they were using to force upgrading, now they've moved on to an even worse tactic to force it.
In Win 10 you had forced updates, lack of user control out of the box with the OS itself, features you could not get rid of (Like that beyond annoying Cortana thing), user settings/preferences being changed or even zapped with each and every update and the same for drivers too getting borked.

And who's to say your TPM module drivers won't get nailed with an update too...... Just imagine trying to recover from that.

The fact MS has began to do this, making these requirements known publicly was also an opportunity for the scalpers to have at it, just try to get one of these modules now for a fair price - You won't.

MS it seems, purposely likes to shat the bed and it's not getting any better anytime soon. Many have said "Enough is enough" and like myself back then, are now moving to Linux instead.
I've always refused to use Win 10 and now Win 11 and most likely Windows period from now on.

For those that may be wondering about Linux, two good distros to start with are Linux Mint and Peppermint, both have a "Very much like Windows" feel and use to them.
The only real caveat about Mint is with some of the newer/newest AMD GPU's it may not run them properly as it was with my Radeon VII but Peppermint picked it up and just ran it, no prob.
 

The moment I can enjoy all the games in my Steam library with RT etc I'm done with Windows. 

[RejZoR]

I guess this will really be a time when Linux takes off. Some will just switch straight away and not wait for 2025, but I'm certain a lot of people will switch then. People are just not in the mood of buying new OS because its maker got a sudden weird erection.

 

I know I won't have issues with my desktop with Ryzen 5800X, but laptop with Ryzen 2500U is already questionable given how many bizarre requirements they put there. And I'll have to check what TPM module it's even using. I know it has one, but I don't know the version. Then I have a netbook from ASUS, works fairly well given it has eMMC storage which is what drags it down, but I use it regularly to watch TV and movies in bed and it's fine. Would want to use Win11 on it since it's touch device and touch works better with Win11 from what I've seen.

[gjsman]

There are a few interesting things going on in the PC World right now.

 

- Microsoft is trying to get Windows streamed PCs to be a thing. They aren't ready yet, but Microsoft is trying to get it where you can provision a Windows computer on Azure and then stream the connection to a thin client. The thin client could be running anything, whether it be the abandoned Windows 10X, Linux, MacOS, or Chrome OS. 

 

- Mac is coming out more powerful variants of the M1 sometime this year, Apple recently acquired Fleetsmith which makes deploying Macs in the enterprise very easy (like, looking at Windows vs Mac deployment, it's so much better), and has guaranteed they'll have Xeon-competitive offerings by the end of 2022. They also added custom domain support to iCloud Mail and are redesigning it, which has caused rumors that they are looking at building a 365 / G Suite competitor. Perfect timing for nervous businesses in the Windows 11 transition. By 2023, Apple's pitch could literally be that we have the most powerful chips, quietest operation, simplest deployment, all in one web and client platform, and you can stream or run Windows VMs for the desktop software that isn't compatible. That could be a heck of a pitch.

 

- Chrome OS is still doing it's thing, but recently got the ability to deploy Windows virtual machines with Parallels. Some businesses might head that direction too instead of fighting to keep Windows 10 alive. Same for Linux, which might become a thin client for streamed Windows licenses or Windows VMs within it. 

[Tieox]

Just now, gjsman said:

There are a few interesting things going on in the PC World right now.

 

- Microsoft is trying to get Windows streamed PCs to be a thing. They aren't ready yet, but Microsoft is trying to get it where you can provision a Windows computer on Azure and then stream the connection to a thin client. The thin client could be running anything, whether it be the abandoned Windows 10X, Linux, MacOS, or Chrome OS. 

 

- Mac is coming out more powerful variants of the M1 sometime this year, Apple recently acquired Fleetsmith which makes deploying Macs in the enterprise very easy (like, looking at Windows vs Mac deployment, it's so much better), and has guaranteed they'll have Xeon-competitive offerings by the end of 2022. They also added custom domain support to iCloud Mail and are redesigning it, which has caused rumors that they are looking at building a 365 / G Suite competitor. Perfect timing for nervous businesses in the Windows 11 transition. 

 

- Chrome OS is still doing it's thing, but recently got the ability to deploy Windows virtual machines with Parallels. Some businesses might head that direction too instead of fighting to keep Windows 10 alive. Same for Linux, which might become a thin client for streamed Windows licenses or Windows VMs within it. 

So subscription based OS's confirmed.  

[gjsman]

11 minutes ago, Tieox said:

So subscription based OS's confirmed.  

And Microsoft wants it to be the OS that you can subscribe to. Microsoft thinks that this will enable low-cost Windows devices to be deployed and have adjustable resources for every device. However considering how well the Windows team management is at thinking, this could easily backfire and result in Chrome OS, MacOS, or Linux clients en-masse.

 

And also, if I'm an Enterprise, having all of my business apps on a remote server that could crash or get hacked doesn't actually sound very appealing. Maybe some businesses will like it, but I don't think Microsoft's thin-client dream is going to be as popular as they wish, at least not with Windows thin-clients. Microsoft thinks it's a valve so businesses can save on physical devices and have "cloud-based security" and easy updating and things like that, but thinks you'll use it with a matching Windows device. I'm a lot more skeptical - I think that if you give the ability to run Windows apps in the cloud, a lot of businesses are going to bolt from Windows clients. 

 

It's not that Windows on paper is a bad operating system. It's just so... touchy. My dad runs a business and every week the stupid printer won't work. It's new, made in the last two years, and doesn't require drivers. I have always been able to print from my Mac since day 1. He can't get the thing to last more than a few days without Windows losing the connection and requiring being set up again, if it even detects it. Windows is death by a thousand paper cuts. It's not that other operating systems don't also have paper cuts, it's that they have far less paper cuts and they add up.

[Tieox]

6 minutes ago, gjsman said:

And Microsoft wants it to be the OS that you can subscribe to. Microsoft thinks that this will enable low-cost Windows devices to be deployed and have adjustable resources for every device. However considering how well the Windows team management is at thinking, this could easily backfire and result in Chrome OS, MacOS, or Linux clients en-masse.

 

And also, if I'm an Enterprise, having all of my business apps on a remote server that could crash or get hacked doesn't actually sound very appealing. Maybe some businesses will like it, but I don't think Microsoft's thin-client dream is going to be as popular as they wish, at least not with Windows thin-clients. Microsoft thinks it's a valve so businesses can save on physical devices and have "cloud-based security" and easy updating and things like that, but thinks you'll use it with a matching Windows device. I'm a lot more skeptical - I think that if you give the ability to run Windows apps in the cloud, a lot of businesses are going to bolt from Windows clients. 

They want every single KB of your data on their servers, you basically have a damn screen and your OS everything is streamed to you.  

 

Ideal for some, but a bloody nightmare on the first outage, a literal eggs in one basket type scenario.  Least that is how I can see it working out, and as you say Linux and OSX or even Google with ChromeOS will capitalize on it and offer a installed OS on a owned device license with owner physical storage.

[Jet_ski]

Jus to expand on how ridiculous this TPM business is, it means Windows 11 will not support Microsoft’s own Surface devices released before 2018. Any device that’s older than 3 years is not supported. This is the list of Surface devices that Windows 11 will not support:

• Surface 3
• Surface Book
• Surface Book 2 (Core i5-7300U)
• Surface Go
• Surface Hub
• Surface Laptop
• Surface Pro
• Surface Pro 2
• Surface Pro 3
• Surface Pro 4
• Surface Pro (2017)
• Surface Studio
• Surface Studio 2

How can they not support Surface Book 2 or Surface Pro 4?!! SB2 was a $1800 device. Unless Windows 11 is hot garbage, everyone will want to ditch Windows 10. But most of those people won’t be able to. And just like that Microsoft destroyed any resale value those devices had.

If Apple can support 5-6 year old devices on the Big Sur which is made for ARM processors then why can’t Microsoft support x86?!

[Tieox]

1 minute ago, Jet_ski said:

If Apple can support 5-6 year old devices on the Big Sur which is made for ARM processors then why can’t Microsoft support x86?!

[gjsman]

Slight correction to your rant above, that's because they have processors earlier than 8th Gen Intel, not because they don't have TPMs (which were required in 2016). So some of those devices can be upgraded, but Microsoft will tell you that upgrading is "not recommended or supported" which for an IT Pro is as good as not being an option.

[gjsman]

Also what's so weird about this is that Windows fans used to say that Macs don't last as long as Windows PCs. They don't get as much support. They don't get as many updates because Apple eventually says you can't upgrade to the next version. This was somewhat BS because you'd typically get about 5-7 MacOS versions, followed by 2-3 years of security updates on the last version, and even then there were mods that could allow you to upgrade to newer versions that weren't supported.

 

This is taking that argument and flushing it down the toilet. I can buy a $3,500 Surface Studio 2, or spec it up to like $5,000, and have Microsoft tell me I shouldn't upgrade, but that if I don't upgrade I will have no security updates, and if I do upgrade I will be in an unsupported configuration. I'm unsupported either way. After only 4 years. On a $3,500+ machine brand new right now. That's lunacy. And Windows fans should not give Microsoft any sympathy for such nonsense. 

[Tan3l6]

I have a Core 2 Duo and DX10 iGPU system that runs fine from an external SSD. The official minimum requirements are not the lowest bar.

TPM is disabled in the BIOS.

[gjsman]

1 minute ago, Tan3l6 said:

I have a Core 2 Duo and DX10 iGPU system that runs fine from an external SSD. The official minimum requirements are not the lowest bar.

On the Windows 11 leaked build? Microsoft says only DirectX 12 compatible GPUs will be supported in the Minimum System Specifications, so you can scratch that in the final release.

 

Just because it works in the leaked build doesn't mean it will work in the final. 

[Tan3l6]

1 minute ago, gjsman said:

On the Windows 11 leaked build? Microsoft says only DirectX 12 compatible GPUs will be supported, so you can scratch that in the final release.

Yes the leaked build. I suppose the launch will tell what are actual requirements...

Yet the Intel® GMA 4500M displays W11 fine.

[gjsman]

How many people tried to watch the presentation but couldn't due to technical issues, already run the checker to find out they aren't compatible without explanation, heard about this TPM business, heard about 8th gen processors and newer being required, saw the controversial changes to Windows like the Start Menu moving, no folders, taskbar only on bottom, then TPM 2.0 is required and not 1.2, saw scalped eBay TPM prices for $99, Microsoft Accounts being required for all Home users, and said screw it! It's bad!

 

Way to bork an announcement Microsoft. I fail to see how this could get much worse. Like seriously, how could this get worse? I would not in a million years have expected them to release a compatibility checker that doesn't work. If you can't even tell me whether my PC will work with it, what does that say about your product? If you can't even figure that out, that actively shreds any iota of faith I had in your product. Or say that the initial requirements they posted were wrong and that it was stricter than previously stated while we were already complaining about how strict it was. 

[gjsman]

What's even more angering than this is the reaction from some Windows pundits. It's also unbelievable. I used to follow this guy, but he has actually proven himself a shill to the nth degree with this tweet.

 

 

 

[dizmo]

It's almost like you guys think you have to switch right away. You don't. By the time they stop supporting 10 these requirements likely won't even be an issue. You're crying over nothing.