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Apple Is Letting Over 150 Countries Censor LGBTQ+ Content In The App Store

Centurius
18 hours ago, Centurius said:

My thoughts

Most companies changing their logos to Pride ones and supposedly supporting the LGTBQIA+ community tend to do it just because it's good marketing, when a company however actively participates in the oppression and silencing of members of the community they reach a new low of hypocricy.

It is like you didn't even read the article. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

-kp

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7 hours ago, StDragon said:

Don't conflate what is legal as being ethical. Just sayin.

Don't conflate non-genocide events/actions to the Holocaust just because something is morally questionable, Just Saying
Sincerely,

All Jews and many people who payed attention in history class and keep everything in perspective

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Well if some governments are not allowing  lgbtq related stuff, why should apple be held responsible? 

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On 6/17/2021 at 9:35 AM, valdyrgramr said:

My issue is, even if I'm a kinky type of pan, I don't have time for long ass acronyms.  The point of an acronym is to reduce, not increase, it doesn't mean you're being excluded either.  I'd rather keep them to 3 or 4 at max.  I'm not going to sit around and keep going with pi either.  Nothing against pi, but I'm sticking with 3.14 I'm aware of 159 and am fine with them being part of pi.  I'm just not a cheerleader.

Add to the that that if we keep adding to the acronym so every one is represented, then there is literally no point in the acronym, just refer to them as "people".

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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12 hours ago, BigDamn said:

This thread is so typical of populist society. People ready to pick up their pitchforks and berate Apple, but what solutions have been proposed? Do you want Apple to defy local law by promoting these apps? 

Allow side loading, like on Android? If the person install whatever they want, Apple isn't responsible for that...

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Meh, shitholes will always exist. It's sad but not much they could do

 

It's still crazy how the app store is so region restricted, even the reviews are restricted to be only from your own country, which really sucks if you don't live in a large one

🙂

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On 6/17/2021 at 12:08 AM, Centurius said:

While Apple may hide behind compliance with local laws, it would not be the first company to take a moral stand on a human rights matter

Try legislating, say, the right to repair and see if Apple just silently complies... 🙄

 

The obvious truth is they don't give a shit about people having rights and only pretend to care when there's a profit to be made.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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36 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Try legislating, say, the right to repair and see if Apple just silently complies... 🙄

 

The obvious truth is they don't give a shit about people having rights and only pretend to care when there's a profit to be made.

I think Apple cares... but like many companies, has decided that it's better to operate in a country that might oppose LGBT rights than not. Let's be honest: those countries aren't going to change their minds simply because people can't buy iPhones.

 

Remember, Apple is not only led by an openly gay CEO, but publicly opposed Proposition 8 (a ballot measure that opposed same-sex marriage in California) back when it wasn't the "safe" choice. This is a company that hasn't been afraid to stick its neck out a bit, even if it's not as firm as we might like.

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9 hours ago, Caroline said:

Time to support Apple then

 

mild /s

Wow you got the whole squad laughing 😐

 

 

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9 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Allow side loading, like on Android? If the person install whatever they want, Apple isn't responsible for that...

Apple actually IS responsible for this. When people infect their devices with malware and aren't equipped with tools to fix it, Apple will be responsible for fixing this. If devices are under warranty they may be unable to charge for this service.

 

To be clear, I don't disagree with your proposal, but it's because of this that I use Android. Apples ecosystem is locked down and they control the software that runs on it.

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2 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

Apple actually IS responsible for this. When people infect their devices with malware and aren't equipped with tools to fix it, Apple will be responsible for fixing this. 

They are not. This is just their excuse to get away with their app monopoly + anti-repair stance + complying to authoritary governments.

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1 hour ago, Commodus said:

Remember, Apple is not only led by an openly gay CEO

This is completely irrelevant, Cook is wealthy and none of this directly affects him.

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

but like many companies, has decided that it's better to operate in a country that might oppose LGBT rights than not.

Meaning they care more about money than people's rights, as I said.

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11 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

They are not. This is just their excuse to get away with their app monopoly + anti-repair stance + complying to authoritary governments.

Just how Microsoft isn't responsible for the malware issues that have plagued Windows for years? This implies negative reputation, time spent on actively fighting software they can't control, and repairing devices that they are indeed responsible for, despite the fact that Forbidden Wafer doesn't think they are.

 

Again, I don't agree with Apple here, but have some perspective. There's a reason their ecosystem is built the way it is.

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56 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

Just how Microsoft isn't responsible for the malware issues that have plagued Windows for years? This implies negative reputation, time spent on actively fighting software they can't control, and repairing devices that they are indeed responsible for, despite the fact that Forbidden Wafer doesn't think they are.

 

Again, I don't agree with Apple here, but have some perspective. There's a reason their ecosystem is built the way it is.

There ecosystem is built that way because they want to control the flow of money.  Sure, some added security is also added in doing so but don't pretend that that is the reason.  With Apple taking the 15-30% share per sale of an App, they have little incentive to want to open it up to third-party installs.  (Looking at the balance sheet, it almost seems as though it makes up for 25% of their total profit).

 

It's an unfair characterization to say Window's reputation for getting malware is because of the openness of it.  Windows initially was a lot more vulnerable of a system because back in Win 98 days with the introduction of the internet (to most people), the system wasn't really protected (I mean this is the OS that you hit cancel to login in most consumer cases).  Then with Win XP, it made significant improvements to security but you could still pretty much run whatever you wanted without any warnings or prompts telling you it wasn't safe.  Then came the Apple commercials, which promoted the misconception that Macs don't get viruses (which I think is where the real negative connotation came from).

 

Basically, if Apple wanted to they could do it without gaining any negativity.  (i.e. You have to go into the settings, and enable it...password required and a warning message.  Once you enable third-party any time you try installing it again requires a password and has a warning.  I think at this stage, most users would accept it as their own risk and wouldn't blame Apple if their device got infected).

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Meaning they care more about money than people's rights, as I said.

It's not like it's a black and white situation here.  Under your logic, assuming you are saying they should pull out of the countries that ban LGBTQ apps, then they should pull out of the United States as well (back when TikTok as to be removed from the App store, out of government censorship).

 

The fact is, the laws exist in the countries and Apple has to abide by them.  Abiding by local laws doesn't mean that the companies support those policies, and it doesn't mean they aren't trying to enact change.  The other issue become where do you draw the line?

 

Let me put it in this perspective.  Do you believe in climate change?  If so, do you eat meat?  If so, why don't you stop? [Cows contribute more than cars do].  Does eating meat mean you are against climate change?  [No]

 

The tl;dr.  Apple is required by law to not publish those Apps, that doesn't mean they are anti LGBTQ.

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1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Abiding by local laws doesn't mean that the companies support those policies...

Yes it does. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

 

Apple has a choice to not do business with China. Whether they do or not is their prerogative; just as it's a consumer right to purchase from Apple. But just so you know the fact of the matter...

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32 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Yes it does. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

 

Apple has a choice to not do business with China. Whether they do or not is their prerogative; just as it's a consumer right to purchase from Apple. But just so you know the fact of the matter...

Nope, not how publicly traded business works.

 

They have an obligation to shareholders to make as much money as possible. If they randomly pull out of China because of some conflict of morality they would get sued into oblivion by shareholders.

 

They have no choice but to stay. If they want to pull out they would need to prove to stockholders that they would make more money by leaving rather than staying. Which… is never going to be the case.

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Specific countries have specific laws that must be followed to do buisness in said countries. Apple can say they don't agree with a countries law, but if they violate it they get taken to court and possibly banned in said country. Apple is a publicly traded company whose CEO does not get to ignore a market for moral or ethical reasons. 

 

That's how the world works. 

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1 hour ago, StDragon said:

Apple has a choice to not do business with China.

No it does not. Tim Cook is not allowed to dictate what markets Apple does buisness with based on how he feels. Apple is a publicly traded company, stockholders demand profits and pulling out of China simply because an LGBTQ+ app was not allowed in China is not a valid reason. 

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On 6/17/2021 at 8:33 AM, BigDamn said:

This thread is so typical of populist society. People ready to pick up their pitchforks and berate Apple, but what solutions have been proposed? Do you want Apple to defy local law by promoting these apps? Is that not culturally insensitive? Do you want Apple to pack up their bags and leave? If so, why are you not upset with Google, Microsoft, and others for operating in these countries?

But....but Apple bad! 

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2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It's not like it's a black and white situation here.  Under your logic, assuming you are saying they should pull out of the countries that ban LGBTQ apps

You're already assuming a lot. First of all I don't think all these countries make it illegal for Apple to provide such apps on their store; this is corroborated by Apple's own statement

Quote

An Apple spokesperson told Motherboard that four of the apps of the 61 Fight for the Future monitored were removed from a country’s App Store for specific legal reasons.

which means in most cases where the apps weren't intentionally region locked by the developers it was a """gentlemen's agreement""" between Apple and the local government to remove them. Presumably in exchange for favorable legislation or easier access to the market.

 

In this situation, Apple could easily refuse such agreements without "pulling out" - though it might cost them some of their profit.

 

Even if there were legal threats, Apple has been known to litigate far pettier things for decades. The only difference being they stood to make money out of those. If Apple cared they could sue these governments or aggressively lobby for legal change, as they do for other things. It may not be feasible in places like China (though again I don't think they make this stuff illegal for the most part) but it definitely is in a lot of other countries that are at least somewhat democratic.

 

If there were legal threats and litigation wasn't an option or failed, Apple could at the very least allow app sideloading on their system. But that would cost them money because they couldn't leech off of app store purchases (or not as much as they'd like to, which is 100% of all iOS app purchases).

 

And if push came to shove, why not leverage a threat of "pulling out"? Do you think a company the size of Apple ceasing to operate in a country wouldn't deal significant damage to the local economy and destabilize the local government? A lot of governments already bend over backwards to accommodate corporate interest under the premise that they can't afford them leaving (though I don't really consider that a good thing).

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Let me put it in this perspective.  Do you believe in climate change?  If so, do you eat meat?  If so, why don't you stop? [Cows contribute more than cars do].  Does eating meat mean you are against climate change?  [No]

First of all this isn't an argument; even if I were a hypocrite that wouldn't make me wrong on this.

 

I only have the power of a single person when it comes to changing the world for the better. There is no life I could live in the current system where I would not be doing something that is at least indirectly unethical, like wearing clothes most likely made in a sweatshop or using a computer for which minerals are mined by de-facto slaves (and before you argue I could do without it, my income depends on using a computer almost every day - I may not need to eat meat, but I need to eat something).

 

Apple is a corporation, an incredibly wealthy one at that, and it actively participates in creating and worsening the problems that are caused by everyday life in our society. I don't get to decide how electronics are produced, Apple literally does. I can't bully around governments to get my way, Apple does it constantly. I don't get to litigate an issue in court for 15 years with a legion of lawyers until my opponent goes broke, Apple made it their bread and butter.

 

So no, me eating meat is not even comparable to Apple silently complying with under-the-table requests for anti-LGBT censorship.

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The tl;dr.  Apple is required by law to not publish those Apps, that doesn't mean they are anti LGBTQ.

When Apple has exhausted all options I detailed above and has been threatened by a full ban from a government for not complying, THEN and only then will I accept that they may not be actively anti-LGBT. Right now the effort they have put in is 0, and so is my charitability towards them.

 

Now as an aside, obviously it's not just Apple. Every corporation pretending to care about LGBT rights is lying to your face. They'll always do whatever is most profitable.

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7 hours ago, Commodus said:

I think Apple cares... but like many companies, has decided that it's better to operate in a country that might oppose LGBT rights than not. Let's be honest: those countries aren't going to change their minds simply because people can't buy iPhones.

 

Remember, Apple is not only led by an openly gay CEO, but publicly opposed Proposition 8 (a ballot measure that opposed same-sex marriage in California) back when it wasn't the "safe" choice. This is a company that hasn't been afraid to stick its neck out a bit, even if it's not as firm as we might like.

It's naïve to think that Apple or other corporations actually care about these societal issues. Whenever they promote the movement, their primary motive is purely to gain money from it nothing more. It can however have some 'positive' effects by making the community louder, though it mainly depends on the situation etc. Whatever Tim Cook did in his personal life to fight for the community is of no relevance in this particular case. Corporations abused the movement time and time again, and it's going to continue happening just because there's people that think they care about these problems.  

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There's a lot of noise to sift through on this one.

 

Multi-nation spanning laws, local area versions of "right" vs "wrong", western vs eastern idealism. 

So many sides, none of which really have Apple as a common factor outside being the host of an app store.

 

This, to me, is not about Apple at all, it's misrepresentation of the realities outside the western world.

 

The hot topic is going after Apple but what about Microsoft, Google, all the other app stores and web hosts who follow the same local laws and censorship rules?

But what about western censorship of international sites and apps? We need VPNs to get real out of country news unfiltered by western ISPs.

 

I've travelled all over the world, the west has the loudest but by far the least honest groups fronting these issues. When the end result is true equality with the freedom to do and be anyone anywhere in the country, the west has a short distance (if at all) to go. If it's to appease the groups who demand celebrations and disproportionate representation, the world will never see the goal posts regardless of the steps being made/taken.

 

Apple does not have a hand in that game, they need to follow the local rules and that's what they are doing, does it make sense to the western idealistic people? No, but they also haven't been there and seen the harm of forcing western ideals. Governments use those same apps to track and persecute users, other even worse groups use user account data to do the same. Apple is stuck between allowing locally unlawful apps or potentially dangerous apps for their users or "censor".

Given what I've seen, censoring is protecting until the laws change and more steps are taken in those areas.

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17 hours ago, Master Delta Chief said:

It's naïve to think that Apple or other corporations actually care about these societal issues. Whenever they promote the movement, their primary motive is purely to gain money from it nothing more. It can however have some 'positive' effects by making the community louder, though it mainly depends on the situation etc. Whatever Tim Cook did in his personal life to fight for the community is of no relevance in this particular case. Corporations abused the movement time and time again, and it's going to continue happening just because there's people that think they care about these problems.  

I'm not naive, I'm just saying they're not indifferent to it. They make contributions and promotions in the countries where they can and hope things get better in the countries where they can't. Check Apple's newsroom and you'll see contributions to causes where they either expect only indirect returns (say, teaching Black kids to code) or none outside of goodwill, like donating millions to the LGBT group Encircle. If it was strictly a sales ploy, Apple could have ignored groups like Encircle and likely wouldn't have been any worse for it.

 

Of course, money ultimately dictates where Apple and other companies go. But what is Apple going to accomplish by refusing to sell in a given country? It's not going to convince some former Russian republic to allow Pride parades because the people suddenly can't buy iPhones. Apple isn't like Google, where its technology could directly enable abuses if it's officially available in a country (you just know China would get its hands all over Google search if it was available).

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6 minutes ago, Commodus said:

say, teaching Black kids to code

Teaching people just because the color of their skin is racist,since they discriminate against people of other races in this act.

Equality means equal treatment to all,and that act is just special treatment to a certain race.

On 6/17/2021 at 3:33 PM, BigDamn said:

This thread is so typical of populist society.

Well,populism is a huge part of society,always has been that way.

Populism most of the time is illogical because people just follow the herd,but in this case it's not necessarily populism,there is logic here - censorship is bad,

And in the free world there will always be people who would oppose censorship and fight it even if it happens in other countries,it isn't about the herd mentality,but about freedom.

And if we can prevent it,even at a cost - we should prevent it,it's about morals and ideals,which capitalism never follows - in capitalism there are no morals,only money.

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