Starlink dishes go into “thermal shutdown” once they hit 50°C

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Arika S said:

thats such a difference just across the pond

 

40 ping

250 down

40 up

 

My adsl was about the same though

On a good day Ive seen 300 down and 70 up. I think it depends a lot on the land relay stations. Infrastructure in NZ is garbage.

 

28 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Damn I'm happy I live where I live from this regard. 

 

Now I have fiber, but even with ADSL I would get waaaaaaaaaay better than those numbers (except that I have cut all incoming copper to my house  )

Unfortunately, where I live the government just doesn't care. 

[Tech Enthusiast]

 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:31 PM, Eaglerino said:

Where the heck is it hitting 50C/122F in Germany on a regular season basis?

About everywhere the sun is shining from about June to August / September.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:43 PM, BabaGanuche said:

Nowhere. The record is 41.2 C.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_temperatures_in_Germany

Ambient temperatures are not exactly what the issue is here. Surface Temps are.

 

Don't confuse ambient air and surface temperatures.

Surfaces get A LOT hotter than the air. Just put your phone on the table, in the sun on a 30degree day.

It will shut down due to reaching 90c and more. Just touch it.

Enter your car at such a day. Touch the interior. Hell, the steering wheel.

 

This dish is looking at the sun, without obstacles, for the entire day. Its temperatures will easily be double the ambient temperatures on days without any clouds.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

On a good day Ive seen 300 down and 70 up. I think it depends a lot on the land relay stations. Infrastructure in NZ is garbage.

How is it garbage? I live in a town of 16,000 people, have fibre, get 950/950 and actually get that. Maybe your ISP just isn't paying enough connectivity bandwidth where you are but there certainly is not a shortage of UFB infrastructure bandwidth from the top of the country to the bottom on of it.

 

Worst case is VDSL2 on the tail end of a copper run but the UFB deployment specifications regulate a much shorter maximum length so you can get reasonably decent speeds, and that a limitation of the technology itself, existing copper cable quality and ability to route existing lines to new road side exchanges.

 

UFB network is completely standardized, you aren't getting anything worse or better where you are in the country other than if you are in a fibre deployment zone or VDSL2 only (for now).

[Guest]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

How is it garbage? I live in a town of 16,000 people, have fibre, get 950/950 and actually get that. Maybe your ISP just isn't paying enough connectivity bandwidth where you are but there certainly is not a shortage of UFB infrastructure bandwidth from the top of the country to the bottom on of it.

 

Worst case is VDSL2 on the tail end of a copper run but the UFB deployment specifications regulate a much shorter maximum length so you can get reasonably decent speeds, and that a limitation of the technology itself, existing copper cable quality and ability to route existing lines to new road side exchanges.

 

UFB network is completely standardized, you aren't getting anything worse or better where you are in the country other than if you are in a fibre deployment zone or VDSL2 only (for now).

There is no fibre or VDSL where I live. There will be no fibre or VDSL ever. They stopped the fibre 5km down the road. We used to pay around 115 a month for ADSL, easy to switch to Starlink. Welcome to Dunedin. 

[Eaglerino]

11 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

 

About everywhere the sun is shining from about June to August / September.

 

My ground doesn't magically gain 12F above ambient outside on its own, and a white dish more or less suspended with 360 degree airflow isn't either

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Eaglerino said:

My ground doesn't magically gain 12F above ambient outside on its own, and a white dish more or less suspended with 360 degree airflow isn't either

Of course.  The shining sun isn’t magic though.  Arizona (or was it Nevada?) are more or less deserts. Very low humidity, few clouds, extremely variable ambient temps for day/night.  Where is Death Valley again? I forget.  Could well be in one of those states though.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

There is no fibre or VDSL where I live. There will be no fibre or VDSL ever. They stopped the fibre 5km down the road. We used to pay around 115 a month for ADSL, easy to switch to Starlink. Welcome to Dunedin. 

You must be on the dreaded city boundary zone (or further out) then. I mean there's not much to tell you than it has nothing to do with Dunedin and it is how it is everywhere like that.

 

Long term solution for people like yourself is fixed 5G, whenever that comes.

[Tech Enthusiast]

48 minutes ago, Eaglerino said:

My ground doesn't magically gain 12F above ambient outside on its own, and a white dish more or less suspended with 360 degree airflow isn't either

You have never walked on street bare food?

Never touched a garden table? A chair?

 

There is no magic involved, that is only normal physics. Heat does not just vanish; it cumulates if you don't get rid of it somehow.

And the sun certainly is not just stopping to pump out more heat, just because the dish has reached ambient temp.

[Forbidden Wafer]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Long term solution for people like yourself is fixed 5G, whenever that comes.

Or to convince nearby neighbors to create and fund a local ISP, which it fairly troublesome but also works.

[Bombastinator]

Just ran across an article that may play into this. Apparently there a rather terrifying heat wave in the southwestern US atm.  Trying to link but it’s proving problematic.  It’s a cnn article that got picked up by Apple news which isn’t good at doing link referrals

https://apple.news/ADE4EE0bcSSWZdEInFzsm2Q

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Or to convince nearby neighbors to create and fund a local ISP, which it fairly troublesome but also works.

Not much point here, if you aren't in UFB range for fibre or VDSL then you are actually in a very cost prohibitive area so very unlikely joe public could fund it unless they rich AF. 

 

UFB network is government funded, paid by the tax payer. Retail ISP buy access to the network to sell to consumers, infrastructure is separate from the ISPs so they actually in a way push for more coverage as it does not cost them capital investment and any expansions means larger customer base.

 

Creating an ISP here isn't actually difficult at all, there is or were a lot of small ISPs that offered long range wireless services but they either largely went away or moved over to offering RBI (Rural Broadband) services which is the 700MHz fixed 4G which is actually pretty good though obviously not perfect nor everywhere but coverage can easily be described as vast. 4G/5G is the most cost effective solution to low density long range services.

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Not much point here, if you aren't in UFB range for fibre or VDSL then you are actually in a very cost prohibitive area so very unlikely joe public could fund it unless they rich AF. 

 

UFB network is government funded, paid by the tax payer. Retail ISP buy access to the network to sell to consumers, infrastructure is separate from the ISPs so they actually in a way push for more coverage as it does not cost them capital investment and any expansions means larger customer base.

 

Creating an ISP here isn't actually difficult at all, there is or were a lot of small ISPs that offered long range wireless services but they either largely went away or moved over to offering RBI (Rural Broadband) services which is the 700MHz fixed 4G which is actually pretty good though obviously not perfect nor everywhere but coverage can easily be described as vast. 4G/5G is the most cost effective solution to low density long range services.

Neighborhood internet system can function well in cities but that they can is well known and gets prevented.  This has been tried in the US and worked great the few times it was done.  It terrified the big providers enough they lobbied and laws were passed in red states to make it illegal.

 

the standard method is running fiber through the municipal sewer system with robots.  Every house’s stack connects to it so it’s easy and cheap to do.  Gets a lot harder if sewer systems aren’t connected though.  Septic tank based stuff basically destroys the whole concept.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Neighborhood internet system can function well in cities but that they can is well known and gets prevented.  This has been tried in the US and worked great the few times it was done.  It terrified the big providers enough they lobbied and laws were passed in red states to make it illegal.

My comment is directly about my country and that situation, such a thing does not happen here (we have more than 80 ISPs). If any person wants to start an ISP they can, there is some regulation compliance requirements obviously but absolutely no other business has to power or ability to stop you from doing it. Whether or not you'll succeed is another matter.

 

Someone proposed a potential solution to the problem that was being talked about here for someone, and anyone like them, and I gave an answer as to why it is not feasible and why they don't get service now.

 

I am no advocate for leaving people behind and making them deal with sub standard internet access but neither I am an advocate for my government to put billions more in to the UFB network to lay fibre or put in new VDSL cabinets to increase the coverage from 95% to 98%, just an example percentages but it's likely close to that anyway. It is not economically viable to do such a thing and I as a voter will not allow such an extreme expenditure for so little gain when that money could go elsewhere for vastly better outcomes. We have a solution for these situations it's just not in place yet, 5G fixed broadband.

 

The sole provider of internet infrastructure (the new modern one) in New Zealand for consumers is the government through the Ultra-Fast Broadband (UFB) network. This project was managed by a crown owned entity called Crown Fibre Holdings Limited who contracted out the laying of fibre, new cabinets, new exchanges and upgrade to anything existing that was to be brought in to the UFB network. To make a really long story short there are no ISPs that own any part of the UFB network, you are either one of the chosen UFB network providers or you are an ISP, both is not allowed.

 

Anyone is free to deploy their own network and peer with UFB or any of the internet exchanges in NZ but unless it's wireless like the many that already exist then it simply will not happen, it's too costly and there is little reason to either compete with UFB or try and service the areas the UFB does not as it's not viable to do so, hence why they don't have converge. If coverage does come then great, UFB network is constantly being evaluated and upgraded.

[Bombastinator]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

My comment is directly about my country and that situation, such a thing does not happen here (we have more than 80 ISPs). If any person wants to start an ISP they can, there is some regulation compliance requirements obviously but absolutely no other business has to power or ability to stop you from doing it. Whether or not you'll succeed is another matter.

 

Someone proposed a potential solution to the problem that was being talked about here for someone, and anyone like them, and I gave an answer as to why it is not feasible and why they don't get service now.

 

I am no advocate for leaving people behind and making them deal with sub standard internet access but neither I am an advocate for my government to put billions more in to the UFB network to lay fibre or put in new VDSL cabinets to increase the coverage from 95% to 98%, just an example percentages but it's likely close to that anyway. It is not economically viable to do such a thing and I as a voter will not allow such an extreme expenditure for so little gain when that money could go elsewhere for vastly better outcomes. We have a solution for these situations it's just not in place yet, 5G fixed broadband.

 

The sole provider of internet infrastructure (the new modern one) in New Zealand for consumers is the government through the Ultra-Fast Broadband (UFB) network. This project was managed by a crown owned entity called Crown Fibre Holdings Limited who contracted out the laying of fibre, new cabinets, new exchanges and upgrade to anything existing that was to be brought in to the UFB network. To make a really long story short there are no ISPs that own any part of the UFB network, you are either one of the chosen UFB network providers or you are an ISP, both is not allowed.

 

Anyone is free to deploy their own network and peer with UFB or any of the internet exchanges in NZ but unless it's wireless like the many that already exist then it simply will not happen, it's too costly and there is little reason to either compete with UFB or try and service the areas the UFB does not as it's not viable to do so, hence why they don't have converge. If coverage does come then great, UFB network is constantly being evaluated and upgraded.

Different countries are different countries.  I don’t know which one the comment maker was talking about.  You described an issue in yours, I described the issue in mine.  They seem to have somewhat similar effect in this case.  Both countries are large and have difficulties with rural broadband.  For all I know the commenter lives in a country where neither applies.

[Vanderburg]

Could it not also be an issue with thermal expansion, instead of just "overheated electronics"? Is it possible that the thermal expansion throws off the geometry of the dish enough that it messes up the phased array such that the interference patterns are no longer correct?

[StDragon]

5 minutes ago, Vanderburg said:

Could it not also be an issue with thermal expansion, instead of just "overheated electronics"? Is it possible that the thermal expansion throws off the geometry of the dish enough that it messes up the phased array such that the interference patterns are no longer correct?

Not likely. The dish has a rigid aluminum backplate; so not much flex would be involved.

 

A little warping might occur, but that should only be enough to (in theory) effect bandwidth, but not absolute connectivity.

[Bombastinator]

30 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Not likely. The dish has a rigid aluminum backplate; so not much flex would be involved.

 

A little warping might occur, but that should only be enough to (in theory) effect bandwidth, but not absolute connectivity.

I don’t remember what the heat expansion rate of aluminum is.  My memory is that it’s larger than average for a metal but that doesn’t make it a whole lot.  The things are made of multiple materials though and each has their own expansion rate.  In extreme cases like the sr-71 the heat level change was so severe that in order to make the fuel tanks liquid tight in flight they had to be NOT liquid right at rest.  So the question becomes what the tolerances are for different systems in the antenna.  I do agree that it is more likely to be something else besides heat expansion.  I don’t think heat expansion should necessarily be ignored though.  I’ve seen heat expansion become a major thing for electrical components in PCs. Specifically with cracked solder joints that expand to become electrically conductive when warm but not when cool.  Talking thous though. Extremely tight tolerance.  Jaguar the car manufacturer was famous for having cars with particularly demonic electrical problems.  This was solved by Ford in the 90’s one of the things about the British isles is being an island they have one of the most stable climates in the world: cool and wet. It’s not a climate that humans are especially fond of, but it’s very stable.  This allowed Jaguar to have unusually tight tolerances in their wiring harnesses that in very cold temperatures actually tightened enough to snap. It frequently did it in the middle of long wiring runs beneath the electrical insulation where it couldn’t BT be seen, and if the car was warm enough (like in a mechanics garage) the wires would expand enough to become conductive again.  The solution was simple: longer wiring harnesses with more play in them.  Hasn’t been a problem for Jaguar in over 20 years.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Bombastinator

[leadeater]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I don’t know which one the comment maker was talking about.  You described an issue in yours, I described the issue in mine.

Well then like I said I was talking about our actual conversation which was clear it was about a specific country, you should have taken more notice of that. It was pretty clear in my response and the original comment it was about a country, not just any country. Look before you leap 

 

Unless it's about the US then near as much no other country has the ISP problems you have.