Time dilation and teleportation

[Master Disaster]

3 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

If the entire universe can be simulated it can be done. And that's not what teleportation really is. 

Correct because teleportation is fictional. Its pointless trying to apply scientific method to something that (almost certainly) will never be possible.

 

I say almost certainly because, as a scientifically minded person I recognise the importance of never saying never but in this case, its pretty much never.

[Wictorian]

1 hour ago, Eigenvektor said:

Whether you imagine teleportation as moving matter from point A to point B or destroying matter at point A and recreating an exact duplicate at point B, in both cases something has to travel between these points. You can't move or recreate something without some kind of information being shared between these two locations.

 

In either case you would, at the very least, be limited to the speed of light. Something would disassemble/destroy your particles here, turn them into "data", transmit this data to the remote location where it gets reassembled/recreated.

 

Light years is a measure of distance, not time.

That's not teleportation, in that case you are right except you wouldn't experience time dilation because you wouldn't be alive. 

[Tan3l6]

What would contain the area of teleportation? Matter or just void with target in it? I mean - how to contain teleportation area?

But yeah, it's just as fiction as dividing by zero. 

[Wictorian]

Just now, Tan3l6 said:

What would contain the area of teleportation? Matter or just void with target in it? I mean - how to contain teleportation area?

But yeah, it's just as fiction as dividing by zero. 

I don't know but if you were to teleport someone in a room full of air I think the air would just move to other parts of the room. Like dropping an object in water

[Master Disaster]

2 minutes ago, Tan3l6 said:

What would contain the area of teleportation? Matter or just void with target in it? I mean - how to contain teleportation area?

But yeah, it's just as fiction as dividing by zero. 

You can divide anything you want by zero...

 

1 / 0 = 0

2 / 0 = 0

5 / 0 = 0

69420.1337 / 0 = 0

 

*sorry, at this point I'm almost trolling

[Wictorian]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

You can divide anything you want by zero...

 

1 / 0 = 0

2 / 0 = 0

5 / 0 = 0

69420.1337 / 0 = 0

 

*sorry, at this point I'm almost trolling

Tbh that's how science fiction works

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, Eigenvektor said:

I understand how time dilation works. I'm not sure what this has to do with the sentence I was pointing out as incorrect.

 

You said it would "take X light years". The word "take" implies time, which makes this sentence nonsensical. As I said, you would travel whatever distance you want your teleport to cover and it would take whatever time it takes for light to travel between these points (from our perspective).

 

The particles/information going from A to B would certainly be subject to time dilation. Whether the person being teleported would (consciously) experience this, I cannot say. Ultimately it doesn't matter. As soon as the person arrives, their reference frame matches ours again and whatever time has passed in "our reality" becomes their new reality.

 

They might experience travel from Earth to Proxima Centuri as instant, but once they arrive 4 years have passed regardless.

I did say clearly to an external observer. And yes, I meant 4 years, not 4 light years. You could've just said that and I would've understood what you are talking about.

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Read your first post again, that's what @Eigenvektoris referring to when he claims that you've confused the term "light year" as a temporal unit instead of a spatial unit.

 

Also, your entire interpretation of teleportation just being travel at light speed defeats the purpose of it being instantaneous teleportation, because that's not what's being asked. Instantaneous means that if it's 8pm on June 7th 2021 on Earth and you're invited to dinner with friends in Alpha Centauri the same day, if you teleport there, its local time is also 8pm on June 7th 2021 and not 4 years in the future. The same way how, if you return from that dinner later that evening, it's not suddenly 2029, but you're not older. This has never been the conventional interpretation of what "teleportation" is.

As for my interpretation of teleportation, I intetionally interpreted about something that is more closer to reality with our current laws of physics (I assumed so because he was talking about time dialtion - involving something to do with speed or acceleration). Teleportation in the conventional definition cannot work and whatever we do right now we will be bound by the speed of causality.

 

At shorter distances it can may be appear as almost instant, but then we open the second can of worms about destructing and reconstructing matter

[tikker]

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

As for my interpretation of teleportation, I intetionally interpreted about something that is more closer to reality with our current laws of physics (I assumed so because he was talking about time dialtion - involving something to do with speed or acceleration). Teleportation in the conventional definition cannot work and whatever we do right now we will be bound by the speed of causality.

According to our current understanding of the laws of physics actual teleportation indeed isn't possible, but this was more a thought experiment if and how much would experienced with actual teleportation. If you replace teleportation with "traveling at light speed" then it is no longer teleportation, but simply travelling at light speed..

  

3 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Going instantly means travelling at the speed of light. But from an outside observer, you will take x amount of years (the amount of years light would take) to reach your destination. But for you, it will be pretty much instant, hence feel like teleporting

Going instantly means going instantly, no time will pass, not travelling at the speed of light. So yes, to us for short enough distances it will feel like teleporting, but it is not.

 

[Eigenvektor]

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

I did say clearly to an external observer. And yes, I meant 4 years, not 4 light years. You could've just said that and I would've understood what you are talking about.

Sorry for being unclear, that was not my intention. It did not occur to me that you meant years rather than light years.

 

I think we're on the same page otherwise. It's somewhat nonsensical to discuss a real world physical effect in the context of a fictional world that does not follow our current understanding of physics. If you declare instant transport of matter across any distance as possible, then you can also make it have any effect on time that you want.

 

21 minutes ago, tikker said:

According to our current understanding of the laws of physics actual teleportation indeed isn't possible, but this was more a thought experiment if and how much would experienced with actual teleportation. If you replace teleportation with "traveling at light speed" then it is no longer teleportation, but simply travelling at light speed.

Let's accept for a second that a person can disappear at one location and instantly (from an outside observer's perspective) reappear at another location. Does the person being transported experience time dilation?

 

If no time passes for the outside observer and for the person being transported also, then there is no time dilation. Time dilation means the speed of time is experienced differently by two observers. Since the time that has (not) passed is the same for both, no time dilation is happening.

 

If, on the other hand, for the person being transported time does indeed pass, then there is time dilation. You could explain it this way: The person being teleported is actually standing still, while it is the universe that moves at light speed. Once the universe stops moving the person "reappears" somewhere else "instantaneously" because it was actually the observer for whom time stood still in the meantime, so they were unable to experience their own movement. To us it was the person being teleported who moved, while in reality we were the ones moving.

[tikker]

19 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

The person being teleported is actually standing still, while it is the universe that moves at light speed.

This subtly assumes teleportation works at light speed. We cannot mix the assumptions of a person disappearing and reappearing instantly and things travelling at light speed. Either teleportation works at light speed, or it's instantly.

 

Time dilation (if I remember correctly) occurs for frames moving with respect to each other at a certain velocity. The problem with instant teleportation is that I think there is no well defined (rest)frame for the one being teleported. There is nothing moving with respect to you. The person being teleported / their frame vanishes and then reappears somewhere else. It will create a discontinuity, which I'm not sure the equations are equipped to handle as we assume (and so far have seen) that spacetime is continous.

[Wictorian]

20 minutes ago, tikker said:

This subtly assumes teleportation works at light speed. We cannot mix the assumptions of a person disappearing and reappearing instantly and things travelling at light speed. Either teleportation works at light speed, or it's instantly.

 

Time dilation (if I remember correctly) occurs for frames moving with respect to each other at a certain velocity. The problem with instant teleportation is that I think there is no well defined (rest)frame for the one being teleported. There is nothing moving with respect to you. The person being teleported / their frame vanishes and then reappears somewhere else. It will create a discontinuity, which I'm not sure the equations are equipped to handle as we assume (and so far have seen) that spacetime is continous.

Then I thought it would cause no time dilation, basically be the same as not teleporting.

[Eigenvektor]

23 minutes ago, tikker said:

This subtly assumes teleportation works at light speed. We cannot mix the assumptions of a person disappearing and reappearing instantly and things travelling at light speed. Either teleportation works at light speed, or it's instantly.

I was merely trying to explain "instantaneous" transport in a way that would not break conventional physics while also involving time dilation. Instant to us does not necessarily mean instant to the person (or data?) being teleported. It just means the people observing the teleport don't experience time passing in the meantime.

 

In my understanding time dilation can only be used as a comparative term. You can only experience time dilation relative to something else. Which typically involves two things moving at different velocities.

 

If you change your location without moving and no time has passed for either of us then there is no time dilation, because the same amount of time has passed for both of us (none). Time dilation only enters the equation when you and I experience a different amount of time as having passed in the meantime.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Eigenvektor said:

I was merely trying to explain "instantaneous" transport in a way that would not break conventional physics while also involving time dilation. Instant to us does not necessarily mean instant to the person (or data?) being teleported. It just means the people observing the teleport don't experience time passing in the meantime.

 

In my understanding time dilation can only be used as a comparative term. You can only experience time dilation relative to something else. Which typically involves two things moving at different velocities.

 

If you change your location without moving and no time has passed for either of us then there is no time dilation, because the same amount of time has passed for both of us (none). Time dilation only enters the equation when you and I experience a different amount of time as having passed in the meantime.

Right, that's fine, but I stand by my earlier point that then we aren't talking about teleportation anymore. You are right about time dilation being comparative, or rather, relative. Regarding your last statement, we both experience our own time normally. It's just you looking at me that'll see my clock move slower or faster from yours and vice versa. This is why we need relativistic corrections for GPS. The clocks on satellites run a combination of faster relative to our clocks on Earth due to the lower gravitational potential and slower because they are moving. If we would visit one up there, our clocks would be similar again because we would be moving at the same speed and reside in the same potential.

 

I think in the end we're saying the same thing haha. You won't experience time dilation because you don't experience it yourself and because nothing is moving (smoothly/continously) with respect to each other in the case of true teleportation.