Time dilation and teleportation

[Wictorian]

How would time dilation be if you were to instantly teleport from point A to point B?

[Sauron]

your speed would be infinite so time dilation would be infinite.

[Tan3l6]

Through a "wormhole"?

[Wictorian]

22 minutes ago, Tan3l6 said:

Through a "wormhole"?

No

[Wictorian]

27 minutes ago, Sauron said:

your speed would be infinite so time dilation would be infinite.

Well what does that mean? And is your speed infinite? Let's say you teleported 1m, and I teleported 2m, who is faster? And can we really calculate it? Because the time is 0 and we can't divide by 0.

[tikker]

9 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

Let's say you teleported 1m, and I teleported 2m, who is faster? And can we really calculate it? Because the time is 0 and we can't divide by 0.

And there's your problem. You're trying to apply certain laws of physics to something those laws weren't designed for or don't work for. Time dilation happens for moving objects. Teleportation in the definition of instantly transporting between two places isn't moving, it's teleporting.

[Vishera]

4 minutes ago, tikker said:

Teleportation in the definition of instantly transporting between two places isn't moving, it's teleporting.

It is moving!,as long as you move from one place to another you still move.

"Instant" teleportation  is not really instant,but a relative thing.

For example if a human teleports from point A to point B in 0.1 seconds the human will perceive it as instant while it really is not.

[tikker]

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

It is moving!,as long as you move from one place to another you still move.

"Instant" teleportation  is not really instant,but a relative thing.

For example if a human teleports from point A to point B in 0.1 seconds the human will perceive it as instant while it really is not.

That's assuming teleporting will take time.Instant teleportation is instant teleportation, or it will just be not-instant teleportation. Of course in reality we don't know what it'll be like if it's even ever possible.

 

Even if it would take some time, you would still be stuck with the fact that you disappear at one spot an reappear at another and will have a hard time creating a reference frame for that.

[Sauron]

25 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

Well what does that mean?

Nothing, this is a meaningless question because it's impossible to teleport.

25 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

And is your speed infinite? Let's say you teleported 1m, and I teleported 2m, who is faster?

Speed is distance over time. Distance in this case would be a meter or two. Time would be 0. You tell me what the speed is.

26 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

And can we really calculate it?

We can't, both speeds would be infinite which isn't a thing that is allowed in our universe - at least as far as we know.

[Vishera]

28 minutes ago, Sauron said:

We can't, both speeds would be infinite which isn't a thing that is allowed in our universe - at least as far as we know.

@tikker

If your speed is infinite - Time will be infinite as well.

So moving at infinite speed,for an infinite amount of time - You might as well say that it doesn't exist since you will never reach the destination with those numbers.

[Inelastic]

Looking at the equation for time dilation given here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ/tdil.html

 

The Lorentz factor would be sqrt(-infinity), which means you're dividing time by imaginary infinity. WolframAlpha tells me that's 0 for anything where time is finite.

[tikker]

26 minutes ago, Vishera said:

@tikker

If your speed is infinite - Time will be infinite as well.

So moving at infinite speed,for an infinite amount of time - You might as well say that it doesn't exist since you will never reach the destination with those numbers.

That is true, infinities are always nasty. This is just replacing one problem (teleportation) with another (infinities) though. I think the devil is (as usual) in the details.

 

Velocity is defined as a change of position with respect to time: v = dx / dt. If you move from x1 to x2 instantly, your velocity will be indeed be infinite (well technically undefined, because we can't divide by zero). On the other hand, what happens if teleportation does indeed take like 0.1 ms? Let's stick to the definition of teleporting as the "transfer of matter or energy from one point to another without traversing the physical space between them". The problem that now arises is that dx/dt is undefined because there is no dx that is travelled in the time interval dt, hence your velocity is still undefined/infinite. We only know that x(t=0ms) = <position A> and x(t=0.1ms) = <position B>. Anything in between doesn't exist, because you are not at any of those positions in that time interval. So I think you cannot define a proper "speed of teleportation" anyway, because the math doesn't work out.

 

Interestingly there would be the point of conservation of momentum etc. to think about:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/144215/velocity-difference-from-teleportation

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/131575/teleportation-keeping-momentum-on-arrival

making teleportation over great distances potentially rather dangerous.

[Vishera]

12 minutes ago, tikker said:

Let's stick to the definition of teleporting as the "transfer of matter or energy from one point to another without traversing the physical space between them".

Yep,that definition is impossible.

The closest thing to it is taking an object and convert it to something that can be transferred really fast - like a laser light in an optic fiber cable.

That way the object is travelling as light,then at the destination it's converted back to it's original shape.

[tikker]

3 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Yep,that definition is impossible.

The closest thing to it is taking an object and convert it to something that can be transferred really fast - like a laser light in an optic fiber cable.

That's kind of the point of it no   We don't know of anything currently that will ever allow teleportation.

4 minutes ago, Vishera said:

That way the object is travelling as light,then at the destination it's converted back to it's original shape.

Not sure what would be easier. Inventing teleportation, or inventing a way to build stuff form light.

[Vishera]

3 minutes ago, tikker said:

or inventing a way to build stuff form light.

Well,energy can be converted to other types of energy - and light is a type of energy.

So by conversion of different types of energy we can make things,for example we take electricity convert it to light and then we get a picture on a computer monitor.

We can also convert it to heat,convert the heat to movement by heat and convert that movement to electricity again.

While pictures are not originally an energy - We managed to take energy and build a picture with it.

There is potential here.

[tikker]

13 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Well,energy can be converted to other types of energy - and light is a type of energy.

So by conversion of different types of energy we can make things,for example we take electricity convert it to light and then we get a picture on a computer monitor.

We can also convert it to heat,convert the heat to movement by heat and convert that movement to electricity again.

While pictures are not originally an energy - We managed to take energy and build a picture with it.

There is potential here.

Sure I can see the potential, but using electricity to show a picture on a monitor is still miles away from actually manufacturing that actual picture from light and far from teleporting something. We're not talking light to heat or electricity here, but converting your atoms to light and vice versa on the other end. For teleporting inanimate objects we have the benefit that a copy will likely do, if we can accept the philosphical problem the ship of Theseus, aka faxing. But even if we conquer the laws of physics and do manage to teleport something, teleporting living things will probably still be in another league.

[Vishera]

27 minutes ago, tikker said:

faxing

Faxing is indeed like teleportation - The teleportation of documents.

[Amias]

42 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Faxing is indeed like teleportation - The teleportation of documents.

No.

 

Faxing is producing an electronic representation of an image of the surface of paper and sending that via phone lines to a printer where it's decoded and used to reproduce that image onto the paper using toner.

 

The original stays in place, and the replacement is only a visual representation of the original.

[Wictorian]

10 hours ago, Sauron said:

Nothing, this is a meaningless question because it's impossible to teleport.

Speed is distance over time. Distance in this case would be a meter or two. Time would be 0. You tell me what the speed is.

We can't, both speeds would be infinite which isn't a thing that is allowed in our universe - at least as far as we know.

I was asking if it meant the time would be slower or faster for the one who teleported. Why do you think it is impossible? 
 

Also if I am not wrong time dilation wouldn't exist because as far as I know it is a matter of acceleration, and you are not accelerating in this case, even if it is a case of speed, again, your speed is 0.

[Wictorian]

10 hours ago, Vishera said:

@tikker

If your speed is infinite - Time will be infinite as well.

So moving at infinite speed,for an infinite amount of time - You might as well say that it doesn't exist since you will never reach the destination with those numbers.

This is just a cover story of why infinite speed cant exist

[Wictorian]

10 hours ago, Inelastic said:

Looking at the equation for time dilation given here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ/tdil.html

 

The Lorentz factor would be sqrt(-infinity), which means you're dividing time by imaginary infinity. WolframAlpha tells me that's 0 for anything where time is finite.

So no time dilation?

[Wictorian]

10 hours ago, tikker said:

That is true, infinities are always nasty. This is just replacing one problem (teleportation) with another (infinities) though. I think the devil is (as usual) in the details.

 

Velocity is defined as a change of position with respect to time: v = dx / dt. If you move from x1 to x2 instantly, your velocity will be indeed be infinite (well technically undefined, because we can't divide by zero). On the other hand, what happens if teleportation does indeed take like 0.1 ms? Let's stick to the definition of teleporting as the "transfer of matter or energy from one point to another without traversing the physical space between them". The problem that now arises is that dx/dt is undefined because there is no dx that is travelled in the time interval dt, hence your velocity is still undefined/infinite. We only know that x(t=0ms) = <position A> and x(t=0.1ms) = <position B>. Anything in between doesn't exist, because you are not at any of those positions in that time interval. So I think you cannot define a proper "speed of teleportation" anyway, because the math doesn't work out.

 

Interestingly there would be the point of conservation of momentum etc. to think about:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/144215/velocity-difference-from-teleportation

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/131575/teleportation-keeping-momentum-on-arrival

making teleportation over great distances potentially rather dangerous.

So again time dilation doesnt exist?

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, Vishera said:

Yep,that definition is impossible.

The closest thing to it is taking an object and convert it to something that can be transferred really fast - like a laser light in an optic fiber cable.

That way the object is travelling as light,then at the destination it's converted back to it's original shape.

It is not impossible and that's not really it, what is the point of doing what you say? And in reality what you say is impossible. 

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, Vishera said:

Well,energy can be converted to other types of energy - and light is a type of energy.

So by conversion of different types of energy we can make things,for example we take electricity convert it to light and then we get a picture on a computer monitor.

We can also convert it to heat,convert the heat to movement by heat and convert that movement to electricity again.

While pictures are not originally an energy - We managed to take energy and build a picture with it.

There is potential here.

Objects are not kinds of energy tho

[tikker]

37 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

So again time dilation doesnt exist?

Time dilation most certainly exists. What I'm saying is that for teleportation our math breaks down, so either it doesn't happen (since you aren't moving with respect to something else) or other weird stuff happens.