PCs Offer 'Better Gaming Experience Than 100% of Mac Laptops,' Intel Claims in Ongoing Anti-Apple Campaign

[leadeater]

Um Intel? Who is buying a Mac for gaming?

 

[Moonzy]

Just now, leadeater said:

Um Intel? Who is buying a Mac for gaming?

 

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Um Intel? Who is buying a Mac for gaming?

 

I actually stopped buying macs because I like to game.  If they even did it almost as well I’d be back in a hot minute though.  Been a lot of years since they could do that though.

[decolon]

21 hours ago, Belgarathian said:

I feel like Intel has just annoyed someone in Apple who will now spend a lot of time, money, and effort to make Mac the best gaming experience.

Tim Cook sends his regards

[decolon]

16 hours ago, mecarry30 said:

I wasn't sure of that before as well, but after seeing that the M1 is already close to the 16 inch's base dGPU in performance I have no doubt that the GPUs Apple puts in their machines will be decent for laptops. I would estimate the 14/16" models to have something like an RTX 2070 in horsepower or something.

but don't they use onboard ddr4 ram for video memory on their gpus tho. that alone would cripple performance vs amd/nvidia dgpus

[mecarry30]

59 minutes ago, decolon said:

but don't they use onboard ddr4 ram for video memory on their gpus tho. that alone would cripple performance vs amd/nvidia dgpus

They do, but it hasn't really made a difference so far. I think that since it's unified it doesn't need to be that large, and the speed is pretty fast.

[Commodus]

Methinks Intel doth protest too much.

 

I'm a Mac user and I won't dispute that a Windows PC is better for computer gaming. But you don't buy a Mac for gaming unless you're really big into Apple Arcade (Sayonara Wild Hearts on a 5K iMac is glorious overkill). If anything, this shows how insecure Intel is — it doesn't like that Apple's first-gen computer silicon thrashes comparable Intel chips, so it's trying to find something, anything to hang its hat on. I wonder if Intel wouldn't have been better off pretending Apple wasn't in the room.

 

Mind you, I can see why Intel would do this. Somewhere, there's an executive dreading the day if and when someone says "if you want the fastest laptop, you have to get a Mac." And that might be coming soon... GPU performance notwithstanding, there's a real chance the next MacBook Pros will be faster than all Intel-based laptops, and possibly AMD ones as well.

[Spindel]

11 hours ago, Commodus said:

*snip*...If anything, this shows how insecure Intel is — it doesn't like that Apple's first-gen computer silicon thrashes comparable Intel chips, so it's trying to find something, anything to hang its hat on...*snip*

 

Marketing 101: If your product is good let it speak for itself. If your product is mediocre or crap compared to the competition still try to find angles without thrashing on the competition. 

 

Intel does neither of the above and just comes across as desperate. 

[LAwLz]

I am still amazed that this forum seems so obsessed with what marketing material says.

This is like the 5th thread I see about "Intel's marketing material says X!". Seriously, who the fuck cares if some company says their product is better than some competitor? Especially when it's such a vague and inane statement as "our product is better".

 

What's next, threads about how some burger joint doesn't actually have the data to back up their claim that they have "the best burgers in town"?

[Spindel]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am still amazed that this forum seems so obsessed with what marketing material says.

This is like the 5th thread I see about "Intel's marketing material says X!". Seriously, who the fuck cares if some company says their product is better than some competitor? Especially when it's such a vague and inane statement as "our product is better".

 

What's next, threads about how some burger joint doesn't actually have the data to back up their claim that they have "the best burgers in town"?

BREAKING NEWS APPLE SILICON IS A BETTER ARM CPU THAN AN INTEL OR AMD CPU!

 

EDIT:// I realize I'm brilliant and should get a high paying marketing job

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am still amazed that this forum seems so obsessed with what marketing material says.

This is like the 5th thread I see about "Intel's marketing material says X!". Seriously, who the fuck cares if some company says their product is better than some competitor? Especially when it's such a vague and inane statement as "our product is better".

 

What's next, threads about how some burger joint doesn't actually have the data to back up their claim that they have "the best burgers in town"?

If people don’t listen to marketing material it has no value.  Great lengths are gone to to get people to listen to it. 

[leadeater]

46 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

If people don’t listen to marketing material it has no value.  Great lengths are gone to to get people to listen to it. 

Also if there isn't some kind of public push back to obvious BS'ery then that's just leaving the door open for more of it. Obviously tech media is going to be a larger part of that, also through their PR contacts, but if we show that we don't care then the tech media doesn't have much to point to and will also have less incentive to push back as well since we don't show that we care.

 

Sure it's "only marketing", but like you said it doesn't do nothing otherwise companies wouldn't allocate money and resources to it.

[Video Beagle]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sure it's "only marketing", but like you said it doesn't do nothing otherwise companies wouldn't allocate money and resources to it.

 

I had some thoughts on the purpose of this marketing push (and other ones' they've done recently)...it ventures well off topic from the meat of this so I made it in general rather than here.

 

[maartendc]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:33 PM, Jet_ski said:

This will absolutely backfire on Intel and their marketing team. They might think they’ve outsmarted Apple with these slides but they are actually self-burns. Because what Intel is actually saying is that their previous gen CPUs were terrible and Apple was right to move away from them; it’s not Apple they are insulting here!

 

 

Exactly.

 

This is a very strange comparison, seeing as they are comparing to their old product, 2 generations ago... (9th gen)

 

Also strange because the GPU's are not even remotely similar. Apples to oranges. Of course a RTX3060 performs better than a Radeon 5600M mobile chip.

 

Maybe they should just spend their energy making good products. In my opinion, their competition isn't Apple anyways. People who buy Apple products are not interested in Windows laptops by and large, and vice versa. Having "1.24X better performance in War Thunder" isn't going to change that.

 

Their competition is AMD mobile chips, focus on beating those, Intel.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Also if there isn't some kind of public push back to obvious BS'ery then that's just leaving the door open for more of it. Obviously tech media is going to be a larger part of that, also through their PR contacts, but if we show that we don't care then the tech media doesn't have much to point to and will also have less incentive to push back as well since we don't show that we care.

 

Sure it's "only marketing", but like you said it doesn't do nothing otherwise companies wouldn't allocate money and resources to it.

I would say it's the opposite.

If nobody bats an eye when some company makes a claim then they will have no point in making such claims.

 

However, if Intel or some other company gets their name blasted all over the media as soon as they say anything then they get rewarded. What you have to realize is that marketing is often just about getting your name out there. Intel is probably thrilled that they get a ton of threads on tech news sites even if the comments are "lol Intel".

In this case there isn't even any BS to have pushback over. Nothing they said was even wrong.

 

Intel: "APEX and COD doesn't run on MacOS"

This forum: HOLY SHIT YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE WHAT INTEL JUST SAID!

 

Intel: "There are PCs with touch screens, and the Mac doesn't have that"

This forum: HOLY SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE INTEL JUST SAID THAT!

 

It's getting tiresome...

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

If nobody bats an eye when some company makes a claim then they will have no point in making such claims.

By that metric you wouldn't be able to prove whether it's because nobody heard or nobody objected, however if people object then you know for certain they are objecting. Rarely does the absence of something proving anything, where as the existence of something is proof it exists.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

What you have to realize is that marketing is often just about getting your name out there

Any publicity is good publicity is a complete fallacy, truly a complete an utter falsehood. I am not naïve, neither am I a fool either. "Getting your name out there" is not the same as making yourself look like a clown.

 

However the only way to show that this is the case is to point it out.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Nothing they said was even wrong

Everything they said was PR garbage of the highest spin doctoring, they DESERVE to be called idiots for doing it.

 

If Speedo made a media statement that their clothing is better to swim in than Levi's products I'd similarly call them idiots, not being incorrect does not make the statement not stupid.

 

Never forget #PoorVolta

Edited June 2, 2021 by leadeater

[hishnash]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:47 AM, Papercut Captain said:

Not sure they can beat AMD/Nvidia in graphics, but we will see.

In perf/W the M1s GPUs in fp32 is almost 2x AMD/Nvidia's best options, a lot of this is down to apple putting so much effort into perf/W. Building metal to match the hardware helps devs really get the most out of it but also the `Tile Based Deferred Rendering` pipeline apple user has its pain points for devs but does massively reduce memory bandwidth (a large power draw for GPUs) and also massively improves the ability for the gpu to do fragment culling in ways that `TileBased Imitate Rendering` GPUs just can't do without multiple render passes (even more memory bandwidth usage).

Apple could well ship a 32Core GPU in the next 16" MBP that in fp32 will be faster tan the 2080 desktop card in and in well optimised metal titles will be faster than a 2080ti. The key thing is well optimised metal titles since devs need to change how they think about the rendering to make the  most out of the TBDR pipelines.  

The rumoured 128Core GPU that will be in the macPro SoC and additional add in cards you can buy will likely significantly out-perform the RTX 3090 while drawing about 1/2 the power.  


 

 

On 6/1/2021 at 6:07 PM, mecarry30 said:

Metal is behind DirectX

In features etc metal is well ahead of DX and Vulkan.

There are good reasons why apple is not embracing Vulkan as vulkan as been designed by a group of GPU vendors that sell TBIR gpus so it has non of the features needed to make use of apples GPUs. Running code that expects a TBIR on a TBDR gpu is painful as it commonly results in needing the same memory bandwidth as it would on a TBIR GPU and these TBDR GPUs will not have that bandwidth. The tradeoff is developers need to write code explicitly for this hardware but the wins are big.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 6:07 PM, mecarry30 said:

They will be powerful for sure, but I think it will be more in productivity.

For sure Metal really shines in the mixture of compute and display, it is close to CUDA in compute but also has inline display support so you can directly from the GPU compute shaders issue draw calls without round trippign to the cpu.

 

 

[mecarry30]

5 hours ago, hishnash said:

In perf/W the M1s GPUs in fp32 is almost 2x AMD/Nvidia's best options, a lot of this is down to apple putting so much effort into perf/W. Building metal to match the hardware helps devs really get the most out of it but also the `Tile Based Deferred Rendering` pipeline apple user has its pain points for devs but does massively reduce memory bandwidth (a large power draw for GPUs) and also massively improves the ability for the gpu to do fragment culling in ways that `TileBased Imitate Rendering` GPUs just can't do without multiple render passes (even more memory bandwidth usage).

Apple could well ship a 32Core GPU in the next 16" MBP that in fp32 will be faster tan the 2080 desktop card in and in well optimised metal titles will be faster than a 2080ti. The key thing is well optimised metal titles since devs need to change how they think about the rendering to make the  most out of the TBDR pipelines.  

The rumoured 128Core GPU that will be in the macPro SoC and additional add in cards you can buy will likely significantly out-perform the RTX 3090 while drawing about 1/2 the power.  


 

 

In features etc metal is well ahead of DX and Vulkan.

There are good reasons why apple is not embracing Vulkan as vulkan as been designed by a group of GPU vendors that sell TBIR gpus so it has non of the features needed to make use of apples GPUs. Running code that expects a TBIR on a TBDR gpu is painful as it commonly results in needing the same memory bandwidth as it would on a TBIR GPU and these TBDR GPUs will not have that bandwidth. The tradeoff is developers need to write code explicitly for this hardware but the wins are big.

 

For sure Metal really shines in the mixture of compute and display, it is close to CUDA in compute but also has inline display support so you can directly from the GPU compute shaders issue draw calls without round trippign to the cpu.

 

 

Thanks for your response. I don't actually know much about Metal, but from like what I've read I heard it was behind DX/Vulkan. I know wit is probably more optimized too.

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, mecarry30 said:

I don't actually know much about Metal, but from like what I've read I heard it was behind DX/Vulkan. I know wit is probably more optimized too.

What you have read is very out of date, for developers that realy adopt metals features (these are normaly game engine devs not game devs) metal is fully featured with all the features you would expect, in many ways the M1 GPU has better support than almost any other GPU in things like pixel formats, texture formats, Tessellationm, Variable rate shading. For tasks the fact that metal is also much better compute api than Vulkan of DX you are able to write much more complex shaders. Much more of the rendering stack in modern apple GPUs is programable than in your desktop gpus (you can write lot of custom logic for doing your won type of MSAA or TAA that runs just as fast as the provieded MAAA or TAA solutions).

 

Even in the raytracing space Metal supports both aproaches, you can dispatch a load of rays and get a load of intercepts returned but you can also within any shader (comute, vertex, fragment, tile, blending) call a ray intersection tests. From a feature perspective this combines both the features exposed by DX and Vulkan and nvidias own API. Worth noting on macOS 11.4 when using these apis with an RDNA2 gpu they do make proper use of the hardware features in those GPUs.
 

 

1 hour ago, Papercut Captain said:

t there any dev targeting metal instead of Vulkan and using MoltenVK to translate it to metal? I don't think so, other than a few large studios who think it is worth and iOS developers.

Very few games use MoltenVK. Most will be using metal directly, the reason for this is most of the majore game engines have direct metal support so if your using that engine (unity, unreal etc) your using Metal even if your not aware of it.

Very few games these days write thier own engine from the ground up.

 

1 hour ago, Papercut Captain said:

Yup, 7/8nm vs 5nm. Apple next gen is 3nm + new arch vs 8nm + old arch of Nvidia. 

7nm vs 5nm is not a 40%+ power saving for the same perfomance. Maybe you can attribute at most 20%.

 

[Spindel]

Meanwhile Adobe releases Photoshop for Windows on ARM, a thing that would not have happened without Apple Silicon. 

 

Bye bye x86.

 

(blender also just released a ARM version for Mac so I guess this will also in time get an Windows on ARM version) 

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Meanwhile Adobe releases Photoshop for Windows on ARM, a thing that would not have happened without Apple Silicon. 

 

Bye bye x86.

 

(blender also just released a ARM version for Mac so I guess this will also in time get an Windows on ARM version) 

That x86’s time was limited has been known for 20 years. It’s been a question of when not if. There have been scares that x86 was on the way out before though and they pulled it out.  We shall see.  It will happen again or it won’t. 

[Roswell]

Uh, why are they comparing the (up to) 150W mobile RTX 3060 to a 50W workstation card?! This is dumb. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dumped 150W into the 5600m it would perform similarly, no?

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Uh, why are they comparing the (up to) 150W mobile RTX 3060 to a 50W workstation card?! This is dumb. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dumped 150W into the 5600m it would perform similarly, no?

Marketers will do the stupid stuff and hope not enough people notice.  It’s been known to work.