Freon Cooling?

[UltraNerd]

Can anyone tell me why gas-to-liquid cooling hasn't caught on yet?

I mean, the whole system wouldn't  be so much more expensive than water cooling; the cost of all the pipes being metal, and a better pump, yes, but anyone who is willing to fork over the dough for water cooling is obviously dedicated. 

And, not all the coolants are conductive! You spill some, whatever. 

So why do I have to model my own custom cooler, & then have it printed in metal, & then find my own pump, & then route my own cooling... you get the idea. ?

[geo3]

Loud and heavy.

[CommanderAlex]

You talking about something like this?? LTT did a video on this a long time ago... just keep in mind, its basically a refrigerator that has a tiny compressor in it. Also, costs and this being a niche market, is the limiting factor of it being more expensive. 

 

[Levent]

1 minute ago, UltraNerd said:

the whole system wouldn't  be so much more expensive than water cooling

Because refrigerants are under strict control? developing a gas-liquid based cooling system is much harder and expensive too.

[SorryBella]

2 minutes ago, UltraNerd said:

Can anyone tell me why gas-to-liquid cooling hasn't caught on yet?

Do you mean phase change? Linus have done a build log to this, but this was very back then. But the concern is still the same as this video eluded:

Tl;Dr is simple: Subambient surface touches ambient air creates condensation, condensation means water, water bad on PC.

 

The challenge to keep condensation out pretty much keep it away from the normal consumer's eye, or even enthusiast as LN2 cooling is better for short term extreme overclocks. The focus now is more towards peltier and "Thermosiphon" heatpipe design as theyre more efficient than water and heatpipe design of yesteryear without the condensation shitstorm.

 

 

[tkitch]

So, phase change is already a thing, and yeah....

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-28-core-cpu-5ghz,37244.html

 

That cooler was something like 1200W or 1500W on its own?  

Meaning, the 1600W PSU and that should NOT be on one 10A 110V breaker.

[LogicalDrm]

-> Moved to Custom Loop and Exotic Cooling

[SolarNova]

If you use a BPHE for effective heat transfer between refrigerant and coolant, u can do subzero liquid cooling using a refrigeration system and a more standard 'looking' liquid loop.

 

Problem is however that refrigeration systems that use the 'usual' industry refrigerant r134a, are terrible for subzero target temps.

 

Refrigerants get less efficient at cooling as the target temp gets closer to the refrigerant boiling temp. As such refrigerants like r134a while very good for the environment, cheap, and readily available, which only boils at -26c wont be as good as something like r1270 (Propene) which boils at -47c.

 

Next you need to consider the way your going to protect the system your cooling. You would need a dry gas environment or Chill box to build the system in to all but remove the chances of condensation. Or heavily insulate all the components and still run the risk of moisture building up over time in areas such as the CPU socket which causes Pin-rot.

 

So...you have to build a refrigeration system (phase change system) deciding on how big and loud ur prepared to have it, the smaller and quieter it is the more expensive it will be. Then you need to build a custom case and/or go mad with things like conformal coatings on components.

 

You ALSO have to consider the materials used in the liquid loop side of things. Going subzero means ull need to check all the o-rings used in the blocks and fittings can handle subzero temps, and ull have to avoid using acrylic top blocks and reservoirs which get brittle and crack under subzero temps. you'll also have to use either glass or metal tubings, or specialized soft tubing that can handle subzero temps. And ofc ull need to choose a coolant. Thankfully things like mayhems XT1 work till something like -50c though it will likely get more viscous which means ull have to consider using a Glycol pump instead of a standard D5.

 

So basically, the end reason its not done, is cost.

[UltraNerd]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:11 PM, SpiderMan said:

You talking about something like this?? LTT did a video on this a long time ago... just keep in mind, its basically a refrigerator that has a tiny compressor in it. Also, costs and this being a niche market, is the limiting factor of it being more expensive. 

 

Exactly like that. That video was actually the first I ever watched by LTT.

Yeah, more expensive, but liquid Nitrogen is more extreme, as Linus says in the video, & that's a thing. And it's more expensive than Freon so...

[UltraNerd]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:14 PM, SorryClaire said:

Do you mean phase change? Linus have done a build log to this, but this was very back then. But the concern is still the same as this video eluded:

Tl;Dr is simple: Subambient surface touches ambient air creates condensation, condensation means water, water bad on PC.

 

The challenge to keep condensation out pretty much keep it away from the normal consumer's eye, or even enthusiast as LN2 cooling is better for short term extreme overclocks. The focus now is more towards peltier and "Thermosiphon" heatpipe design as theyre more efficient than water and heatpipe design of yesteryear without the condensation shitstorm.

 

 

Very true.

But on a solderd on design, it seems to me that all you would need to convert say a GPU to Freon would be a dehumidifier and some epoxy to seal the chips up in a no water environment. 

Also, as I said in another reply, isn't that a problem with liquid Nitrogen as well? Honest question, not being sarcastic or anything. 

[For Science!]

2 minutes ago, UltraNerd said:

Very true.

But on a solderd on design, it seems to me that all you would need to convert say a GPU to Freon would be a dehumidifier and some epoxy to seal the chips up in a no water environment. 

Also, as I said in another reply, isn't that a problem with liquid Nitrogen as well? Honest question, not being sarcastic or anything. 

Liquid nitrogen is cheaper than milk, so not that expensive at least in the scales that we get in the lab

 

You can look at the EVGA device to see a legit liquid nitrogen CLC.

 

[UltraNerd]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:11 PM, geo3 said:

Loud and heavy.

Yes, very heavy. 

But "whisper quiet," or whatever, pumps do exist, at least google says they do.

But yes. I have had to lug a fridge around a couple times in my life. No fun.

[UltraNerd]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:28 PM, tkitch said:

So, phase change is already a thing, and yeah....

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-28-core-cpu-5ghz,37244.html

 

That cooler was something like 1200W or 1500W on its own?  

Meaning, the 1600W PSU and that should NOT be on one 10A 110V breaker.

Good point.

[UltraNerd]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:05 PM, SolarNova said:

If you use a BPHE for effective heat transfer between refrigerant and coolant, u can do subzero liquid cooling using a refrigeration system and a more standard 'looking' liquid loop.

 

Problem is however that refrigeration systems that use the 'usual' industry refrigerant r134a, are terrible for subzero target temps.

 

Refrigerants get less efficient at cooling as the target temp gets closer to the refrigerant boiling temp. As such refrigerants like r134a while very good for the environment, cheap, and readily available, which only boils at -26c wont be as good as something like r1270 (Propene) which boils at -47c.

 

Next you need to consider the way your going to protect the system your cooling. You would need a dry gas environment or Chill box to build the system in to all but remove the chances of condensation. Or heavily insulate all the components and still run the risk of moisture building up over time in areas such as the CPU socket which causes Pin-rot.

 

So...you have to build a refrigeration system (phase change system) deciding on how big and loud ur prepared to have it, the smaller and quieter it is the more expensive it will be. Then you need to build a custom case and/or go mad with things like conformal coatings on components.

 

You ALSO have to consider the materials used in the liquid loop side of things. Going subzero means ull need to check all the o-rings used in the blocks and fittings can handle subzero temps, and ull have to avoid using acrylic top blocks and reservoirs which get brittle and crack under subzero temps. you'll also have to use either glass or metal tubings, or specialized soft tubing that can handle subzero temps. And ofc ull need to choose a coolant. Thankfully things like mayhems XT1 work till something like -50c though it will likely get more viscous which means ull have to consider using a Glycol pump instead of a standard D5.

 

So basically, the end reason its not done, is cost.

Very helpful. I did not think of hardly any of that.

[UltraNerd]

4 minutes ago, For Science! said:

Liquid nitrogen is cheaper than milk, so not that expensive at least in the scales that we get in the lab

 

You can look at the EVGA device to see a legit liquid nitrogen CLC.

 

Oh, my bad. I just assumed it was expensive 'cause...well...it's so cool.

[geo3]

29 minutes ago, UltraNerd said:

Yes, very heavy. 

But "whisper quiet," or whatever, pumps do exist, at least google says they do.

But yes. I have had to lug a fridge around a couple times in my life. No fun.

A refrigerator is no where near powerful enough to cool a PC.  They are highly insulated so the compressor can be efficient and quiet.  

 

For a PC you need something like an AC compressor and those are not quiet.