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AMD prevents motherboard manufacturers from releasing beta BIOS for Ryzen 5000 on X370

Do people actually think that AMD does it to "avoid confusion", "protect from MoBo failures", "they were poor quality so Zen3 wouldn't work anyways" or "not high enough quality"???

 

It is a motherboard I OWN and whose MANUFACTURER wants to update it.

 

It's my motherboard as I said, I see no reason why shouldn't I be allowed to take the risk of updating. Just make me tick the box "This BIOS is unoffical version, might be unstable and even destroy the board. I am aware of the risk". And AMD could always say "we newer said it is officially supported, if it doesn't work it's not our fault" - just like ECC RAM support.

 

Yes you might not get RAM speeds that you would on new board. And you can probably forget about overclocking a 5950X on such a board. But again, AMD doesn't have to officially bring support.

 

Confusion already exists - mostly due to  motherboard manufacturers. Some call Ryzen 5000 series a 3rd gen, contrary to popular counting it as a 4th gen. Some even list APUs as "2nd generation Ryzen processors with Radeon Vega graphics" and repeat it every other sentence when discussing compatibility. I couldn't even make this up. This also makes people think that 3000 series CPUs and APUs are same generation (it's also partly AMD's fault tho).

 

This situation, where AMD blocks software to force buying a new product to old hardware, can be summed up with 1 sentence: "AMD pulled an Intel"

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38 minutes ago, Ydfhlx said:

Do people actually think that AMD does it to "avoid confusion", "protect from MoBo failures", "they were poor quality so Zen3 wouldn't work anyways" or "not high enough quality"???

 

It is a motherboard I OWN and whose MANUFACTURER wants to update it.

 

What would have solved this is a socketed A/B/C firmware chip. Eg the socketed (A) firmware chip can be replaced with a larger model for larger firmware update, and the onboard (B) firmware only supports the one-generation of cpu the chipset was designed for, and the (C) firmware is the stock firmware the board comes with and can't be flashed.

 

Obviously motherboard manufacturers would rather save a few pennies and only have one bios, but many non-budget boards, including OEM systems like Dell, have two bios's, but update both of them (updating the second bios after the first bios passes the checksum.) This creates a potential problem of flashing a firmware upwards, and removing support for the CPU it was booted from.

 

Like another solution here, would have been to put a microSD slot on the motherboard, and have the MB use the SD-card's firmware, at the expense of some boot time, with a physical jumper flipped that makes it replace the default bios.

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/257201/bios-rom-size-limitations-almost-derail-amds-zen2-backwards-compatibility-promise?cp=2

 

Quote

The scary part? Many other motherboard brands appear to be using 16-megabyte EEPROMs on their older socket AM4 motherboards. These companies are bound to run into similar ROM capacity issues unless they keep their UEFI setup programs lightweight. Motherboards based on the latest X570 chipset feature 32-megabyte EEPROMs. The AMD X570 chipset lacks support for not just "Bristol Ridge," but also first-generation Ryzen "Summit Ridge" and "Raven Ridge" processors.

 

Like how much does a 16MB or 32MB EEPROM cost? Probably a difference of $1.00 at most. Why not just stick a 128MB EEPROM on the board and fill the rest of the space with a Linux rescue/diagnostic OS that can be jettisoned if the space is ever needed.

 

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1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

and no one complains when Intel makes you buy a new motherboard, for example theres plenty of decent Z270 boards that could've handled Intel 8th gen cpu's but no have to buy a new mobo.

..... Yes they do, where have you been? 

 

Every thread that has been about a new generation of CPU from Intel (and even some AMD threads) within the first few replies it's always someone saying something about how it needs a new motherboard (and the ever hilarious never-get-old-joke "lol 14nm+++++++, I'm so original") 

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1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

Nobody knows AMD's reasoning behind this decision.

Or do we??

 

Looks like they are looking for some attention. 

People griped about the B450 chipset and cpu support, AMD said no.

Then everyone got in an uproar and AMD said yes.

 

Cat and mouse games. Free publicity. Just take this thread as an example.

They then later release support and everyone gets all "Aww look how awesome AMD is"

 

Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Because:

1) AMD are telling motherboard manufacturers what they can and can't support on their boards. I think motherboard manufacturers should be free to do whatever with their boards. 

 

2) It makes it so that some customers will need to buy a new motherboard despite there being 0 technical reasons for it. Very similar to what Intel has been doing and constantly getting shit on for the last decade or so. Except with Intel there are actually some (small or not) technical reasons for it. 

1. AMD still has to make the code for the MB makers to put on.

2. thats a pretty rare case

3x0  boards were mostly bad, have some real issues and certainly almost all were not built for the 16 cores. They also failed to put in a big enough bios chip so you can end up making it even more of a mess. I'm fine with 3x00 being zen1,zen+andzen2. leave it at that. 4x0 gets zen1-3 except for the early APUs and 5x0 supports zen2-3

you'd rather not have 3x0 boards that support zen2-3 but not zen1 or zen+ it already is a pain

I hate and I gave the flack that sky and kaby lake couldn't be upgraded to coffee. intel majorly said FU to 6/7th gen owners for 0 reason.

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I can see AMD giving support for 5th gen, but not for the Ryzen 9's. They're just too high power and if someone tried to use them on the weaker VRMs of B350 boards (such as mine - 4 CPU power phases, and there are weaker boards) they could damage their board and/or CPU.

 

They may also exclude the 5800X and only do it for Ryzen 5 and lower, or just not do it at all.

 

I don't know. I'm not AMD.

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1 minute ago, FakeKGB said:

I can see AMD giving support for 5th gen, but not for the Ryzen 9's. 

They may also exclude the 5800X and only do it for Ryzen 5 and lower, or just not do it at all.

Putting only 1/2 of a gen on would make it even more of mess. Better to just leave 5000 off of 300

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1 minute ago, GDRRiley said:

Putting only 1/2 of a gen on would make it even more of mess. Better to just leave 5000 off of 300

I dunno. A guy with a 1600X and X370 might just purchase that AMD 5600X while he waits out for DDR5..... It's not a bad move either way. Flash the board, swap the chips.... it's really not that hard or big of a deal for people that already have these systems. And a total no brainer upgrade duh.

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51 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Like how much does a 16MB or 32MB EEPROM cost? Probably a difference of $1.00 at most. Why not just stick a 128MB EEPROM on the board and fill the rest of the space with a Linux rescue/diagnostic OS that can be jettisoned if the space is ever needed.

 

Gamers Nexus went over this during the uproar over the B450 beta bios, 16MB bios chips are much more common than 32MB chips.

23 minutes ago, Arika S said:

..... Yes they do, where have you been? 

 

Every thread that has been about a new generation of CPU from Intel (and even some AMD threads) within the first few replies it's always someone saying something about how it needs a new motherboard (and the ever hilarious never-get-old-joke "lol 14nm+++++++, I'm so original") 

Enough to get threads in tech news? My point is everyone is quick to give Intel a pass and just use the stability excuse, with AMD everyone seems to be "just gimme a bios anyway who cares if it breaks the board".

And socket compatibility, Intel didn't let 6th and 7th gen owners have a beta bios to upgrade to 8th gen, even though the CPU would have fit in the socket.

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11 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Enough to get threads in tech news? My point is everyone is quick to give Intel a pass and just use the stability excuse, with AMD everyone seems to be "just gimme a bios anyway who cares if it breaks the board".

And socket compatibility, Intel didn't let 6th and 7th gen owners have a beta bios to upgrade to 8th gen, even though the CPU would have fit in the socket.

Yes, the news section of this very forum, you're views seem to be completely swapped than how this forum normally operates

 

Intel = bad

AMD = good

 

People will rag on intel at any chance they get and defend AMD as hard as they can. 

There will always be people on both sides, but on this forum, AMD get WAY more passes than Intel

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4 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Actually that's entirely true. You only need a certain chip, and you can get it free.

 

I believe, and anyone may feel to find the information to correct me.....

 

The 200ge and 1200 (not super sure for the 1200) are supported through all bios revisions which may actually include one or two more. Just not exactly sure without a tad bit of research, but I sent my 200ge to Mr.Scott from my benching team to update the bios on his X570 chipset, which would be the same cpu used from X370 and up and also the same chip that AMD would send during the RMA process to request a free bios update cpu for when the issue occured with factory shipped bios's that didn't support 3000 and 5000 series chips.

 

Short term processor loan boot kit.

At the bottom of the page from the link below.

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-100

my dad has R3 1200 in a B350 board and it's not supported all the way to the newest BIOS, it's the ASrock ITX board.

I believe that both the B350 and X370 variants of this board share the same upgrade path. Need to double check.

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On 5/1/2021 at 3:31 PM, TrigrH said:

This is bullshit, originally I was 100% okay with AMD not having ryzen 5000 support.... Then we all found out THEY USE THE SAME IO DIE as ryzen 3000.

 

There is no reason why AIB's shouldn't have the OPTION to add support.

Much more important is that Ryzen doesn’t need a chipset at all to work. ( there is the so called A300 chipset which doesn’t contain an actual chipset, just a little chip that is needed to activate the processor. theoretically there could be a motherboard with support for all AM4 chips. The problem with Ryzen 5000 on 400series chipsets wasn’t compatibility of cpu and chipset  but actually the size of the bios chips(where the bios is stored). The bios chips on most boards were too small for a bios that would enable support for Ryzen 1000; 2000; 3000 and 5000.

Hi

 

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hi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

no one complains when Intel makes you buy a new motherboard

Didn't know you were an ostrich. How else could you have your head so much in the sand

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11 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

1. AMD still has to make the code for the MB makers to put on.

No they don't.

The news here is that AMD are preventing motherboard manufacturers who has already developed the code from releasing BIOS updates.

 

11 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

2. thats a pretty rare case

Even more reason to not restrict it.

 

11 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

3x0  boards were mostly bad, have some real issues and certainly almost all were not built for the 16 cores. They also failed to put in a big enough bios chip so you can end up making it even more of a mess. I'm fine with 3x00 being zen1,zen+andzen2. leave it at that. 4x0 gets zen1-3 except for the early APUs and 5x0 supports zen2-3

Just because some boards were bad does not mean it is okay to prevent all of them from being updated.

You are also making generalizations about the boards here. My motherboard which is an X370 does not have a small BIOS chip. Why cater to the lowest common denominator? 

 

11 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

you'd rather not have 3x0 boards that support zen2-3 but not zen1 or zen+ it already is a pain

Why? We already have later motherboards that doesn't support zen1 and zen+.

Doesn't really make the landscape anymore confusing than it already is.

 

11 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

I hate and I gave the flack that sky and kaby lake couldn't be upgraded to coffee. intel majorly said FU to 6/7th gen owners for 0 reason.

But you forgive AMD when they do a similar thing...

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11 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Thoughts?

Thats a common tactic, especially in gaming related sector, so you're probably not too far off!

 

*cries into non existent resizable BAR support for b350 boards*

 

 

I'm actually one of those people who thinks that anonymity is overrated. Some people confuse privacy and anonymity and think they go hand in hand, and that protecting privacy means that you need to protect anonymity. I think that's wrong. Anonymity is important if you're a whistle-blower, but if you cannot prove your identity, your crazy rant on some social-media platform shouldn't be visible, and you shouldn't be able to share it or like it.

 

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10 hours ago, Arika S said:

Yes, the news section of this very forum, you're views seem to be completely swapped than how this forum normally operates

 

Intel = bad

AMD = good

 

People will rag on intel at any chance they get and defend AMD as hard as they can. 

There will always be people on both sides, but on this forum, AMD get WAY more passes than Intel

I don't think it's even worth convicting him that he got the world completely backwards.

If someone is so delusional that they truly believe that Intel never gets any flack for only supporting 2 generations of CPUs on their boards, then he is either lying, living in a parallel universe or doesn't really read many threads on this forum. Which is weird because Blademaster91 has literally said that people complain about Intel cutting chipset support sooner than they should before:

On 5/8/2020 at 5:39 PM, Blademaster91 said:

The people that bought the B450 boards because B550 got delayed should be upset and give the same grief people give Intel for cutting chipset support sooner than they should.

  

 

 

10 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Enough to get threads in tech news? My point is everyone is quick to give Intel a pass and just use the stability excuse, with AMD everyone seems to be "just gimme a bios anyway who cares if it breaks the board".

And socket compatibility, Intel didn't let 6th and 7th gen owners have a beta bios to upgrade to 8th gen, even though the CPU would have fit in the socket.

I have the complete opposite view of this forum. People are very quick to give AMD a pass and take their words in good faith, while people go on witch hunts to find reasons why Intel are bad and take everything they said in bad faith.

Also, why are you trying to push the narrative that these BIOS updates that are blocked are breaking boards? Nothing in the story indicates that they are. The fact that they are labeled as beta does not really meaning anything either other than them being in early development. If AMD hadn't forced motherboard manufacturers to stop distributing them then they would presumably stop being beta versions down the line.

If we assume that "beta => bad => don't developing it" then no software would ever get released. The BIOSes that are currently used on release boards, including those that X370 launched with, were also beta versions once. It's just that they were further developed on instead of cut off by AMD.

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11 hours ago, Arika S said:

Yes, the news section of this very forum, you're views seem to be completely swapped than how this forum normally operates

 

Intel = bad

AMD = good

 

People will rag on intel at any chance they get and defend AMD as hard as they can. 

There will always be people on both sides, but on this forum, AMD get WAY more passes than Intel

It really wasn't that long ago when people where smashing Intel for only supporting two generations per motherboard. At the time I was trying to illustrate that AMD's platform "longevity" was really not as solid as people made out.  It seems as I predicted back then that the whole AM4 socket has turned out to be pretty much a repeat of the AM2+ and AM3 deal from a decade back.  I say that meaning the confusion that ensued and the various features that some support but that others don't etc etc.

 

I think the reality is that the tech economy moves so fast that even if AMD/Intel where on the ball 100%, there would still be issues they couldn't  100% mitigate.  Anyway, in this case I don't know why anyone would give AMD a pass though, it seems a very arbitrary and anti consumer move.

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1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Thats a common tactic, especially in gaming related sector, so you're probably not too far off!

 

*cries into non existent resizable BAR support for b350 boards*

 

 

Lol.

 

Not sure what all the hoopla is over resizable bar on modern desktop platforms. OC the gpu 100mhz probably gain the same fps if not more....

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18 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Not sure what all the hoopla is over resizable bar on modern desktop platforms. OC the gpu 100mhz probably gain the same fps if not more....

Tbh, me neither and i think i wouldn't be able to use it anyway on win ver 1809...

 

But yeah, i *undervolted* my GPU, 2025mhz  instead of ~1930mhz or so stock (interesting concept, give the GPU less power, itll boost higher 🤔)

20210505_145939.thumb.jpg.cc44e5b06cab8d63aa7866ec6a3084bf.jpg

(aso i really dont do unlocked framerates often, higher frequencies are still good for recording and stuff I wager)

 

so I really do wonder what resizable BAR would even do or if it maybe is just snake oil after all 

 

I'm actually one of those people who thinks that anonymity is overrated. Some people confuse privacy and anonymity and think they go hand in hand, and that protecting privacy means that you need to protect anonymity. I think that's wrong. Anonymity is important if you're a whistle-blower, but if you cannot prove your identity, your crazy rant on some social-media platform shouldn't be visible, and you shouldn't be able to share it or like it.

 

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5 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

(interesting concept, give the GPU less power, itll boost higher 🤔)

It'll boost higher only because less voltage = less heat generated. So it's more headroom for clock increase. But, there's a point to where if you starve the chip of power, it will become very unstable under load. In some cases, it will actually perform worse even though it shows as being clocked higher. It's really walking on a knifes edge.

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Not very cash money of you AMD 😧

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

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A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

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Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

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Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, StDragon said:

It'll boost higher only because less voltage = less heat generated. So it's more headroom for clock increase. But, there's a point to where if you starve the chip of power, it will become very unstable under load. In some cases, it will actually perform worse even though it shows as being clocked higher. It's really walking on a knifes edge.

I know, i actually set it to higher clock, at less voltage tho, so its really an overclock-under voltage , and ive tested it a lot, its stable and improves performance (not sure, depending on application 5-10% im guessing)

i can go much lower, i think this GPU is an undervolting  champion 😅 but then itll clock lower obviously, it can do still above advertised boost at around idle voltage (so ~700mv)  but that indeed becomes unstable in some games.  And yeah heat is why i did this, i have just been surprised at how high it clocks, ive never got any GPU above 2000mhz *stable* before 😮 

 

 

I'm actually one of those people who thinks that anonymity is overrated. Some people confuse privacy and anonymity and think they go hand in hand, and that protecting privacy means that you need to protect anonymity. I think that's wrong. Anonymity is important if you're a whistle-blower, but if you cannot prove your identity, your crazy rant on some social-media platform shouldn't be visible, and you shouldn't be able to share it or like it.

 

Linus Torvalds 

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As someone using a community backported X470 BIOS on X370.

 

image.png.3bb2896ed48b891ce3809088f46334fb.png

 

The community will step up as always, still upsetting to here this officially condemmed though

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Desktop Build: Ryzen 7 1800X @ 4.0GHz, AsRock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming, 32GB Corsair DDR4 @ 3000MHz, RX480 8GB OC, Benq XL2730 1440p 144Hz FS

Retro Build: Intel Pentium III @ 500 MHz, Dell Optiplex G1 Full AT Tower, 768MB SDRAM @ 133MHz, Integrated Graphics, Generic 1024x768 60Hz Monitor


 

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4 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

As someone using a community backported X470 BIOS on X370.

 

 

 

The community will step up as always, still upsetting to here this officially condemmed though

Does this support Ryzen 5000 series processors?? If not, how is this bios useful to you specifically?

- If it ain't broken, don't fix it! - - Your post codes and beep codes in the drop down below -

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Just now, ShrimpBrime said:

Does this support Ryzen 5000 series processors?? If not, how is this bios useful to you specifically?

Yep!

PLEASE QUOTE ME IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME

LinusWare Dev | NotCPUCores Dev

Desktop Build: Ryzen 7 1800X @ 4.0GHz, AsRock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming, 32GB Corsair DDR4 @ 3000MHz, RX480 8GB OC, Benq XL2730 1440p 144Hz FS

Retro Build: Intel Pentium III @ 500 MHz, Dell Optiplex G1 Full AT Tower, 768MB SDRAM @ 133MHz, Integrated Graphics, Generic 1024x768 60Hz Monitor


 

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