Apple Executive Wanted iMessage On Android; Shot down by other Executives

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

Summary

A deposition released by Epic Games today in advance of the the widely reported on Epic V. Apple court battle cites a conversation between two Apple executives, Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi, about the topic of iMessage on 3rd party platforms (specifically Android). Cue reportedly wanted iMessage on Android in 2013 to compete with WhatsApp, a product that Google was allegedly going to buy at the time. Federighi then argues that he is "...concerned [that] iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones." Cue initially wanted to devote a full team to iMessage on Android.

 

This comes on the heels of a report citing Phil Schiller saying iMessage on Android would "hurt us more than it would help us" in 2016.

 

Quotes

Quote

Cue: We really need to bring iMessage to Android. I have had a couple of people investigating this but we should go full speed and make this an official project.... Do we want to lose one of the most important apps in a mobile environment to Google? They have search, mail, free video, and growing quickly in browsers. We have the best messaging app and we should make it the industry standard. I don’t know what ways we can monetize it but it doesn’t cost us a lot to run.

 

Federighi: Do you have any thoughts on how we would make switching to iMessage (from WhatsApp) compelling to masses of Android users who don’t have a bunch of iOS friends? iMessage is a nice app/service, but to get users to switch social networks we’d need more than a marginally better app. (This is why Google is willing to pay $1 billion — for the network, not for the app.)...In the absence of a strategy to become the primary messaging service for [the] bulk of cell phone users, I am concerned [that] iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones.

 

My thoughts

Firstly, Steve Jobs's "vision" was to have iMessage and Facetime an open API for all devices to use, not just iPhones. Of course we all know how FaceTime is locked on the iPhone due to a patent troll, making it more trouble than I assume Apple thinks it's worth to do it, but there's nothing stopping iMessage. Up until now, we never actually got any reason why iMessage was not on 3rd party platforms. It's interesting to see the way they word it. Federighi of course says the obvious, that it would just be a way for "iPhone families to give their kids Android devices" (which I don't think is the case, especially outside of America where other 3rd party messaging services are prevalent), but he also implies that there would be no point as there are already 3rd party messaging services available. I guess that thinking makes sense, I always imagined iMessage on Android being hooked into the default Android messages app and never considered for a second that it would be a separate app. In that case, what's stopping you from just downloading WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger? If you're already going to download a 3rd party app, why not just use those? That being said, I'm still in favor of iMessage all the things, Android, PC, a web portal (since iMessage is already stored in iCloud) but it looks like that isn't going to happen for a long time, or at least until Apple's executive team is shaken up.

 

As for the case, I have no idea how iMessage will budge a judge/jury on anything that pertains to the App Store. Apple Music also wasn't available on Android and PC until a few years ago, does that also mean the App Store is anti-competitive? iBooks? Apple Arcade? I don't even know how you would relate the two things. Unlike the App Store, you do not need to use iMessage for messaging. There's SMS, and there's the hundreds, if not thousands of other messaging apps that are in the App Store that Apple's APIs support (this isn't like you get a degraded experience on other apps vs. iMessage, you get the exact same experience with the Share Sheet, Siri Suggestions, etc.)

 

Sources

Apple exec Eddy Cue wanted to bring iMessage to Android in 2013 - The Verge

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

 

My thoughts

Firstly, Steve Jobs's "vision" was to have iMessage and Facetime an open API for all devices to use, not just iPhones. Of course we all know how FaceTime is locked on the iPhone due to a patent troll, making it more trouble than I assume Apple thinks it's worth to do it, but there's nothing stopping iMessage. Up until now, we never actually got any reason why iMessage was not on 3rd party platforms. It's interesting to see the way they word it. Federighi of course says the obvious, that it would just be a way for "iPhone families to give their kids Android devices" (which I don't think is the case, especially outside of America where other 3rd party messaging services are prevalent), but he also implies that there would be no point as there are already 3rd party messaging services available.

Yeah, that's exactly what happens. If the person I am communicating can't do iMessage, we switch to Discord.

 

This is literately a case where Microsoft (Skype (everyone), Teams(Enterprise)), WeChat (Chinese languages), Jabber (Enterprise Softphone)/WebEx (Cisco version), Snapchat (Teens), Discord (gaming), and Slack (Enterprise/small biz) already exist for.

 

Like if imessage was on Android and had the feature set that was on the iPhone (eg exact same emoji, sticker, and game features)

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pancake-milkshake/id1434497287

And stuff like this legitimately existed (link will be dead), that's the actual pancake milkshake game from Ralph Breaks the Internet.

 

Yes, it was actually made. It also had it's own fake currency (the hearts in the corner, to upgrade things you feed the bunny and kitty.) So just think about the logic needed to drive a game from within iMessage and what has to exist on an Android version to drive this. Now, it could just be a HTML5 game driven the OS webview, then it should just work on other platforms.

 

Also, why stop there. iMessage is available on MacOS, why not put it on Windows and Linux desktops as well.

 

 

[Zmimgo]

6 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Up until now, we never actually got any reason why iMessage was not on 3rd party platforms.

The reason is quite simple. It's because of the ecosystem.

Why did Apple make AirPods work so well for Apple devices, but not for other devices? It's because they want people to get locked into their ecosystem.

If you want iMessage, you will need an Apple device (or hackintosh, but most people won't do that). When you buy like an iPhone, you are also buying all the services Apple offers, with iMessage being one of the biggest ones.

[suicidalfranco]

So making the same decision blackberry did with BBM.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Yeah, that's exactly what happens. If the person I am communicating can't do iMessage, we switch to Discord.

 

This is literately a case where Microsoft (Skype (old people and office workers), Teams(Forced by IT) WeChat (Chinese languages), Jabber (wtf is this)/WebEx (What), Snapchat (Everyone thank you), Discord (people who have three monitors and no gym membership), and Slack (Cool people) already exist for.

fixed /s 

Also;

Parler (white nationalists) Kik (people from 2010. Don’t use if found on Tinder) WhatsApp (literally the whole world) FB messenger (Everyone) Telegram (Didn’t this get shut down? Also Russia) Signal (no one. Opposite of WhatsApp)

[RejZoR]

And I'm sitting here, a former Android user with an iPhone hoping more users would prefer Signal over garbage ass WhatsApp and the likes, a neutral 3rd party so it doesn't matter what OS you're using and an app that has privacy in mind... Yet getting people to use it is incredibly difficult. So I just stick with SMS...

 

@Zongohihello

I keep reading these conspiracy theories about evil Apple wanting to lock people into their ecosystem and I can't get annoyed more by this bullshit. It's totally fabricated nonsense claim and I can't believe it's STILL being repeated like some sort of truth. As an AirPods 2 user who exclusively uses them on Windows 10 systems (I only have them paired with iPhone to see battery levels) I can tell you it's a big fat lie. Sure, AirPods 2 work amazing on iPhone with its magical connecting and proximity popup status display. But they work equally great on Windows 10. Connecting them with computer is another thing which is pretty buggy and not really Apple's fault because I'm experiencing same issues with SoundPEATS that I also have (situations when they refuse to pair, I'm suspecting BT chipsets in PC's or Windows itself is the reason). But once connected, they work great. I can even use touch gestures on them to control MPC HC video player or MusicBee music player. And I also bought Dolby Access for additional audio enhancements which work amazingly well for gaming and movies. In fact AirPods have ridiculously low latency to a point I can super comfortably game with them and I do so very often actually because they are more comfy than big over the ear headphones that I also have. Of all "locked" things, AirPods are the least locked to anything. They work like ANY other bluetooth earbuds with any device. And despite how people constantly whine how they sound terrible, they are actually really well balanced and sound great given they need to lossy compress audio to transmit it.

[Zmimgo]

24 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

 

@Zongohihello

I keep reading these conspiracy theories about evil Apple wanting to lock people into their ecosystem and I can't get annoyed more by this bullshit. It's totally fabricated nonsense claim and I can't believe it's STILL being repeated like some sort of truth. As an AirPods 2 user who exclusively uses them on Windows 10 systems (I only have them paired with iPhone to see battery levels) I can tell you it's a big fat lie. Sure, AirPods 2 work amazing on iPhone with its magical connecting and proximity popup status display. But they work equally great on Windows 10. Connecting them with computer is another thing which is pretty buggy and not really Apple's fault because I'm experiencing same issues with SoundPEATS that I also have (situations when they refuse to pair, I'm suspecting BT chipsets in PC's or Windows itself is the reason). But once connected, they work great. I can even use touch gestures on them to control MPC HC video player or MusicBee music player. And I also bought Dolby Access for additional audio enhancements which work amazingly well for gaming and movies. In fact AirPods have ridiculously low latency to a point I can super comfortably game with them and I do so very often actually because they are more comfy than big over the ear headphones that I also have. Of all "locked" things, AirPods are the least locked to anything. They work like ANY other bluetooth earbuds with any device. And despite how people constantly whine how they sound terrible, they are actually really well balanced and sound great given they need to lossy compress audio to transmit it.

I also own a pair of AirPods 2, and own an iPhone as well. I did not say that Apple devices doesn't work with third-party bluetooth-enabled devices, nor did I say that Apple devices work very badly with third-party bluetooth-enabled devices. I also regularly use my AirPods 2 with a Windows laptop.

What I said is that Apple devices work very good with other Apple devices. I never said that they don't work with other devices. I don't think anyone would argue that the AirPods experience with Windows is better than using them with a Mac.

And about the ecosystem, I didn't say that Apple is evil. But it is true, every choice that may seem akward to the community are ways to lock people in the ecosystem. Why didn't Apple releace iMovie and Garageband, as well as Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro to other platforms? Why did Apple make the Apple Watch practically unusable if you didn't own an iPhone to set it up?

I usually stay away from drama, especially about fanboying for companies, but I feel it's important to clarify what I mean. I am not saying that this is fanboying, but I personally feel it's at the very least simular to fanboying.

[WolframaticAlpha]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

keep reading these conspiracy theories about evil Apple wanting to lock people into their ecosystem and I can't get annoyed more by this bullshit

Just because your airpods work on windows, doesn't mean that they are a free ecosystem messiah. Read any book. From the digital hub strategy, apple has been all about building an ecosystem. Steve jobs, was literally quoted in his book, as saying that one of the motivation behind icloud was the ecosystem. He didn't want ipod on windows. And the list goes on and on, including Craig Federighi, Phil Schiller etc

 

Try using iservices, apple pencil(which technically is USI compliant), apple watch, apple tv through official means on Android. Oh, that's right, you can't.

 

Your Airpods work, because they use the bluetooth protocol. I am pretty sure, if apple wanted to, they could take that away. But it would probably cost them too much money, and very few people are actually buying ipads and iphones because of airpods.

 

Oh, but your AirPods 2 work, so it means that apple is a free ecosystem company, and everything else is fake news.

[Laborant]

If one company generates a device, that works exceptionally well in cooperation with other devices of the same company but they only work in a "standard" way with the rest of the ecosystem. Why blame the company that does it RIGHT? 

Samsung could do the AirPod-Pairing (or Galaxy Buds in this case) just as magical as Apple does it. Do they?
Google could even implement an open API to enable that for manufacturers like Sennheiser. Do they?
With the AirPods technically having three batteries to monitor, it's probably not that straightforward to implement like the battery level of my "not fully wireless"-Phones showing it in the Bluetooth settings. (Or is it? I'm not that well educated regarding Bluetooth Protocol stacks and the Android API)

I mean... they fulfill the minimum standard on non-Apple devices. That should be sufficient. No? 

 

If iMessage is THAT much better than WhatsApp, Signal, Threema or Telegram, why don't the other messenger just "git gud"? Get that awesome, that iMessage gets obsolete? Apple is not to blame for keeping something good for Apple users alone. 
At this point, I would say, opening iMessage would be a huge enabler for the Apple Ecosystem - I mean, if I buy an iPhone, iMessage would be pretty much worthless to me. In my inner social circle, no one uses Apple.

They could have benefit from that Whatsapp-Facebook outrage some weeks ago and could have added possible future customers to Apple.

[Spindel]

13 minutes ago, Laborant said:

If one company generates a device, that works exceptionally well in cooperation with other devices of the same company but they only work in a "standard" way with the rest of the ecosystem. Why blame the company that does it RIGHT? 

Samsung could do the AirPod-Pairing (or Galaxy Buds in this case) just as magical as Apple does it. Do they?
Google could even implement an open API to enable that for manufacturers like Sennheiser. Do they?
With the AirPods technically having three batteries to monitor, it's probably not that straightforward to implement like the battery level of my "not fully wireless"-Phones showing it in the Bluetooth settings. (Or is it? I'm not that well educated regarding Bluetooth Protocol stacks and the Android API)

I mean... they fulfill the minimum standard on non-Apple devices. That should be sufficient. No? 

 

If iMessage is THAT much better than WhatsApp, Signal, Threema or Telegram, why don't the other messenger just "git gud"? Get that awesome, that iMessage gets obsolete? Apple is not to blame for keeping something good for Apple users alone. 
At this point, I would say, opening iMessage would be a huge enabler for the Apple Ecosystem - I mean, if I buy an iPhone, iMessage would be pretty much worthless to me. In my inner social circle, no one uses Apple.

They could have benefit from that Whatsapp-Facebook outrage some weeks ago and could have added possible future customers to Apple.

If apple opened up iMessage it would, in an instant, be targeted for a load of antitrust filings. Poor poor facebook would say they can't compete with a free service that doesn't harvest the user data. 

 

Personally i use iMessage when available and SMS otherwise with people not on iOS. I would never install a 3rd party app for texts (particularly not from FB). 

[Arika]

24 minutes ago, Laborant said:

If iMessage is THAT much better than WhatsApp, Signal, Threema or Telegram, why don't the other messenger just "git gud"? Get that awesome, that iMessage gets obsolete?

 

wont happen because the standard on iOS is iMessage. if everyone of your family and friends are using 1 platform, it doesn't matter how good another is unless you convince EVERYONE to switch, and they would only switch if ALL of their own contacts also switch. it's about convenience all in 1 place. people would rather stick to 1 messaging platform than have to hop between multiple different platforms for different people regardless of how good a different option is.

 

I mainly use telegram, Yes signal is better, but it's pointless to use Signal if no else in my friends group uses it.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Spindel said:

If apple opened up iMessage it would, in an instant, be targeted for a load of antitrust filings. Poor poor facebook would say they can't compete with a free service that doesn't harvest the user data.

If ever there was a company that would not put up with facebook's shit, it would be Apple

 

I imagine their response to such a filing would be very close along the lines of

 

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Just because your airpods work on windows, doesn't mean that they are a free ecosystem messiah. Read any book. From the digital hub strategy, apple has been all about building an ecosystem. Steve jobs, was literally quoted in his book, as saying that one of the motivation behind icloud was the ecosystem. He didn't want ipod on windows. And the list goes on and on, including Craig Federighi, Phil Schiller etc

 

Try using iservices, apple pencil(which technically is USI compliant), apple watch, apple tv through official means on Android. Oh, that's right, you can't.

 

Your Airpods work, because they use the bluetooth protocol. I am pretty sure, if apple wanted to, they could take that away. But it would probably cost them too much money, and very few people are actually buying ipads and iphones because of airpods.

 

Oh, but your AirPods 2 work, so it means that apple is a free ecosystem company, and everything else is fake news.

No one ever said they are messiah of openness. But they sure as hell aren't all the crap people keep on saying they are. If that was the case I wouldn't remain with Apple for 2+ years after being on Android for almost 10 years before it.

 

Sure, Apple Watch only works with iPhone. I wonder why Apple Watches are light years ahead of everyone else. It just might be the reason in super tight integration with phone that makes it work this exceptionally well and not some conspiracy theory to lock users in? It just happens to do that by itself and Apple obviously doesn't mind it. Would you as a company when that puts you into a benefiting position?

 

The whole sideloading stuff and custom ROM's for Android that's always the never-ending praising orgy are pointless and worthless and only come in handy in very tiny super specific cases. Within functioning stock OS, iOS is perfectly open and usable. I use everything on it that I have on Android and same apps are often of better quality on iOS than on Android (visually and usability wise). In fact Android is actually worse. It's either "Google everything" or it's nothing. Coz as soon as you unlock the bootloader or degoogle it, you enter the world of fuckery and dealing with really stupid things that prevent you from doing basically anything. Even if you don't use ANY Google apps or services, whole Android is one big giant data hording machine. Yuck. And basically that's the reason I went with iPhone and quite frankly never looked back. Did try Android again like a month ago by migrating everything back to it and it was just meh. Especially knowing it's the Google's rot snooping underneath it even though I wasn't using any of their apps.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

WhatsApp (literally the whole world) FB messenger (Everyone)

Nobody I know uses these, heck the family that use facebook doesn't have a device that can use facebook messenger. The family that doesn't have Apple devices, use text messages. Everyone else, Discord. 

 

Honestly, each chat app has a niche age group and language group. We didn't even get into what's popular in Japan (LINE) or Korean (KAKAOTALK) , and the fact that nobody outside that country or language group uses it, tells you exactly why it's relegated to that language group.

 

Let's see... https://www.messengerpeople.com/global-messenger-usage-statistics

India -  WhatsApp 70%

USA -  FB Messenger 55%

UK - WhatsApp 81%

China - WeChat (1.2billion users, including 100m outside China)

 

So if this is suggestive of anything, who really gives a care if Apple iMessage was available on everything, all it could do is hurt Facebook so that's a plus.

 

 

 

 

[Curufinwe_wins]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Nobody I know uses these, heck the family that use facebook doesn't have a device that can use facebook messenger. The family that doesn't have Apple devices, use text messages. Everyone else, Discord. 

 

Honestly, each chat app has a niche age group and language group. We didn't even get into what's popular in Japan (LINE) or Korean (KAKAOTALK) , and the fact that nobody outside that country or language group uses it, tells you exactly why it's relegated to that language group.

 

Let's see... https://www.messengerpeople.com/global-messenger-usage-statistics

India -  WhatsApp 70%

USA -  FB Messenger 55%

UK - WhatsApp 81%

China - WeChat (1.2billion users, including 100m outside China)

 

So if this is suggestive of anything, who really gives a care if Apple iMessage was available on everything, all it could do is hurt Facebook so that's a plus.

 

 

 

 

So I'm going to be the first one to say I think the 'benefits' of iMessage are hugely overrated on the whole, but I do believe that if iMessage was actually platform agnostic, basically none of these (except maybe WeChat in China) would have ever gotten the market/mind share to become relevant competition. Releasing it now wouldn't do much, releasing it 10 years ago would have changed a TON.

 

Well except that I guarantee you US mobile providers would have bitched super hard about losing revenue streams in SMS charges (domestic and international) on all devices instead of just one company that can basically say 'don't like it? good luck keeping users in the US when we take away apple devices from your platform.'

 

Worth noting to people outside the US, Apple is not only the largest market share, it's literally a super majority, and has been continuously since Jan '11, with Samsung being the only other maker to be above 10%. In Europe, Apple hasn't been in the majority since 2012 and hasn't been the #1 since 2014.

[AMD A10-9600P]

I generally like Apple products, but overall iMessage is just a bit meh. It works and it works over WiFi but that's pretty much it. It wouldn't have been a huge win for Android users to gain iMessage, as services like WhatsApp are generally much better, but I can see why the appeal is there. It would have been fairly pointless for Apple to do this though, and it would have actually hurt them if they ported iMessage to Android; I am not surprised or even disappointed that it never happened.

[WolframaticAlpha]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

No one ever said they are messiah of openness. But they sure as hell aren't all the crap people keep on saying they are. If that was the case I wouldn't remain with Apple for 2+ years after being on Android for almost 10 years before it.

 

Sure, Apple Watch only works with iPhone. I wonder why Apple Watches are light years ahead of everyone else. It just might be the reason in super tight integration with phone that makes it work this exceptionally well and not some conspiracy theory to lock users in? It just happens to do that by itself and Apple obviously doesn't mind it. Would you as a company when that puts you into a benefiting position?

 

The whole sideloading stuff and custom ROM's for Android that's always the never-ending praising orgy are pointless and worthless and only come in handy in very tiny super specific cases. Within functioning stock OS, iOS is perfectly open and usable. I use everything on it that I have on Android and same apps are often of better quality on iOS than on Android (visually and usability wise). In fact Android is actually worse. It's either "Google everything" or it's nothing. Coz as soon as you unlock the bootloader or degoogle it, you enter the world of fuckery and dealing with really stupid things that prevent you from doing basically anything. Even if you don't use ANY Google apps or services, whole Android is one big giant data hording machine. Yuck. And basically that's the reason I went with iPhone and quite frankly never looked back. Did try Android again like a month ago by migrating everything back to it and it was just meh. Especially knowing it's the Google's rot snooping underneath it even though I wasn't using any of their apps.

1. oof, It doesn't work that well because it is tied to an iphone. It is light years ahead of everyone because apple makes it's own chips and software. If they made it open to android, it would work just as well.

 

2. You can have Google Apps on a rooted android device.

 

3. iOS doesn't have the ability to sideload apps. So, apple has full control over your apps. If they wish to remove an app(FortNite) for example, they have the power to do it. On android, I can use great FOSS apps like waistline that are not on the app store. And guess what? A forntite-like situation cannot happen. You can write your own apps and run them on your own device. ANd unlike iOS, you actually can modify your theme. So you don't have to wait for 14 fucking years for app menus and widgets. Also, not everyone likes the stock ios look or even the stock android look. You can customize that. Close to 62.1% of the users were running a cistom skin on their phone in India in 2018. So Android IS more open and provides more power to the user than iOS.

 

4. Lol. you think apple is not mining your data?

[WolframaticAlpha]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

No one ever said they are messiah of openness. But they sure as hell aren't all the crap people keep on saying they are. If that was the case I wouldn't remain with Apple for 2+ years after being on Android for almost 10 years before it.

 

Sure, Apple Watch only works with iPhone. I wonder why Apple Watches are light years ahead of everyone else. It just might be the reason in super tight integration with phone that makes it work this exceptionally well and not some conspiracy theory to lock users in? It just happens to do that by itself and Apple obviously doesn't mind it. Would you as a company when that puts you into a benefiting position?

 

The whole sideloading stuff and custom ROM's for Android that's always the never-ending praising orgy are pointless and worthless and only come in handy in very tiny super specific cases. Within functioning stock OS, iOS is perfectly open and usable. I use everything on it that I have on Android and same apps are often of better quality on iOS than on Android (visually and usability wise). In fact Android is actually worse. It's either "Google everything" or it's nothing. Coz as soon as you unlock the bootloader or degoogle it, you enter the world of fuckery and dealing with really stupid things that prevent you from doing basically anything. Even if you don't use ANY Google apps or services, whole Android is one big giant data hording machine. Yuck. And basically that's the reason I went with iPhone and quite frankly never looked back. Did try Android again like a month ago by migrating everything back to it and it was just meh. Especially knowing it's the Google's rot snooping underneath it even though I wasn't using any of their apps.

Hey, but if ios works for you then great. And you also are entitled to your opinion.

 

I am putting this, so I don't come off looking as an asshole who hates apple products. I use an iPad Air 4 and I love it. 

[RejZoR]

28 minutes ago, AMD A10-9600P said:

I generally like Apple products, but overall iMessage is just a bit meh. It works and it works over WiFi but that's pretty much it. It wouldn't have been a huge win for Android users to gain iMessage, as services like WhatsApp are generally much better, but I can see why the appeal is there. It would have been fairly pointless for Apple to do this though, and it would have actually hurt them if they ported iMessage to Android; I am not surprised or even disappointed that it never happened.

I don't think it would hurt them. No one is going to buy an iPhone specifically for iMessages only. No one. In fact in some regions you'd have more incentive to buy an iPhone then if others would communicate with it because it's Apple's system. It would actually be a threat to Whatsapp, Facebook messenger and stuff. SMS is too basic at this point and MMS is pretty dated for photos coz it shrinks them too far and is often charged per message even though we have gigabytes of data plan. Situation is reversed in USA where most have iPhones. Until it's standardized and built into OS itself, there won't be any uniform usage. SMS had that because it was by default on ALL phone without exception. Now we have 2 hands full of different incompatible messengers and it's quite a mess.

[Commodus]

8 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

So making the same decision blackberry did with BBM.

There is that concern, but I'd argue BlackBerry's problem was that it made BBM proprietary and lost the plot in smartphone design. It locked people in without giving them other reasons to stay. Apple is boing doing well now and unlikely to go south any time soon.

[Curufinwe_wins]

1 minute ago, Commodus said:

There is that concern, but I'd argue BlackBerry's problem was that it made BBM proprietary and lost the plot in smartphone design. It locked people in without giving them other reasons to stay. Apple is boing doing well now and unlikely to go south any time soon.

Noteworthy as well is that iMessage works 'well enough' with other systems from the perspective of an iphone user (fallback to and from with sms/mms). BBM never had that fallback system so it walled the garden in a hard-fashion instead of a 'soft' one.

[Tenelia]

8 hours ago, Kisai said:

-snip-

Yes, it was actually made. It also had it's own fake currency (the hearts in the corner, to upgrade things you feed the bunny and kitty.) So just think about the logic needed to drive a game from within iMessage and what has to exist on an Android version to drive this. Now, it could just be a HTML5 game driven the OS webview, then it should just work on other platforms.

 

Also, why stop there. iMessage is available on MacOS, why not put it on Windows and Linux desktops as well.

In all honesty, executive soundbites are great, but actual operations often suck in more resources and create more emergent complexity than management can predict.

 

Take the history of Android: Pixel and Android were meant to set a baseline performance for the ecosystem, so that consumers know what to expect from Android especially comparing against other brands. Sounds good right?

 

In reality, tribal loyalty and fanaticism means that the majority of consumer segments simply stick to the product lines they use and upgrade unless the subsequent product became such a massive failure that they really have to look elsewhere. Reality is a lot messier than executive soundbites, and I think technology can't truly evolve in a way that serves complex demographics until it accounts for all that.

[Commodus]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Noteworthy as well is that iMessage works 'well enough' with other systems from the perspective of an iphone user (fallback to and from with sms/mms). BBM never had that fallback system so it walled the garden in a hard-fashion instead of a 'soft' one.

That's true. And BBM's advantages evaporated as soon as companies developed end-to-end encrypted messaging and read receipts.

[Kisai]

18 minutes ago, Tenelia said:

 

 

In reality, tribal loyalty and fanaticism means that the majority of consumer segments simply stick to the product lines they use and upgrade unless the subsequent product became such a massive failure that they really have to look elsewhere. Reality is a lot messier than executive soundbites, and I think technology can't truly evolve in a way that serves complex demographics until it accounts for all that.

Android has thus far been the VHS tape of the smartphone world. Those that have one, hate it, it's only selling point is that it's cheap, and those that chose the alternative, can't share tapes/messages.

 

Like it's kinda funny how upside down this all is. You'd think that Google would have had everyone using a Google messenger service, but somehow utterly blew this, and instead directs people to use gmail. Hangouts was there, and they... keep rebranding and refactoring it... to what ends? Confuse the snot out of people that they have a messaging service?

 

The one time I was directed to use google hangouts, I could not get the program to work on the phone at all.

[RejZoR]

5 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

1. oof, It doesn't work that well because it is tied to an iphone. It is light years ahead of everyone because apple makes it's own chips and software. If they made it open to android, it would work just as well.

 

2. You can have Google Apps on a rooted android device.

 

3. iOS doesn't have the ability to sideload apps. So, apple has full control over your apps. If they wish to remove an app(FortNite) for example, they have the power to do it. On android, I can use great FOSS apps like waistline that are not on the app store. And guess what? A forntite-like situation cannot happen. You can write your own apps and run them on your own device. ANd unlike iOS, you actually can modify your theme. So you don't have to wait for 14 fucking years for app menus and widgets. Also, not everyone likes the stock ios look or even the stock android look. You can customize that. Close to 62.1% of the users were running a cistom skin on their phone in India in 2018. So Android IS more open and provides more power to the user than iOS.

 

4. Lol. you think apple is not mining your data?

1. It's almost as if actually having an ecosystem matters. Would you look at that? Ecosystem is combination of software and hardware. Not just awesome specs on paper and Swiss cheese like software. Which is how everything Android is. All out specs on paper and very little substance beyond that. It's all about bigger numbers are better and its users are obsessed with it.

 

2. You can use Google Apps. You can't Netflix or pretty much any banking app from my country because they block them from running on just phones with unlocked bootloaders. Not even rooted phones. Having all finances managed online, I need the app even if I want to do it via browser because of 2FA part of the app. So, all phones with custom ROM's are just straight up useless.

 

3. Sideloading of apps is overrated. Very few vendors offer APK's directly and getting them from unverified sources is terrible way of doing things. I've seen modified legit apps posing as legit apps down to just straight up ripoffs that just use name to pretend they are something they are not. When I ran them it was something entirely different.

 

4. No, Apple is not mining user data. They don't really have to because people actually pay for their things. Where with Google, everything is "free" shit. There is a big difference when you have control over that and where it's solely used for purpose of making their own products better (which doesn't need such extensive data mining). Google just does it to appease advertisers better and goes into really creepy depths of analyzing your habits and you as a person. Apple just doesn't do that and from my knowledge never has. Google always has and it's toning down because people are slowly realizing their personal data matters. Why else do you think they (allegedly) stoppe dcombing through GMail? Or why they are introducing the FLoC thing instead of their good old data hoarding on personal level?

[Curufinwe_wins]

15 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Android has thus far been the VHS tape of the smartphone world. Those that have one, hate it, it's only selling point is that it's cheap, and those that chose the alternative, can't share tapes/messages.

 

Like it's kinda funny how upside down this all is. You'd think that Google would have had everyone using a Google messenger service, but somehow utterly blew this, and instead directs people to use gmail. Hangouts was there, and they... keep rebranding and refactoring it... to what ends? Confuse the snot out of people that they have a messaging service?

 

The one time I was directed to use google hangouts, I could not get the program to work on the phone at all.

Spoiler

 

What? Google indeed being incompetent at just sticking with a service and dealing with it (admittedly the biggest issue has actually been US mobile carriers that don't want to support anything that cuts into their revenue and Google lacking the same power in the US as Apple to say 'well f you if you don't want to do this, good luck without us')....

 

But that analogy is ridiculous. Like the fall back sms/mms is bad by comparison to any modern application, but works perfectly fine for 99.999% of what people use them for, and honestly I wouldn't personally swap to iOS for free given how bad and assbackwards Apple's "my way or bugger off" attitude is. iOS STILL fills left to right, top to bottom on home-screens ffs (just to name one). iOS 14 is finally sort of giving hacks around it, but WHAT THE FLYING FUCK APPLE!

 

Rant over. Not trying to derail threat, just couldn't let that pass unchallenged.

 

Regardless, already said my piece in a response to you earlier that was on-topic.