After more than 8 years the first 13" MacBook Pro with a Retina display has been classified as 'obsolete' by Apple

[Sauron]

13 hours ago, ProjectBox153 said:

we still have the Retina display today.

It's literally just a buzz word for "high resolution" display, nowadays it's pretty trivial, what would not having it today even look like? Apple just slapping a 720p screen on a 1400$ machine for no reason? It was mildly impressive 8 years ago when a lot of even high end 13"ish laptops didn't have a 1080p screen, now it's whatever.

[paddy-stone]

I've never cared about apple products personally. But even less so after last year my brothers first gen Ipad mini  (2013) was made obsolete as it could no longer get software updates OR download any new apps... so basically it's still usable IF you only want to use the apps it already has on it.

[FmPhenom]

15 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

how well does Windows 10 run on those though....

I have windows 10 running on a athlon 2500 circa 2003 with 4 gigs of ram on a ssd  and purs along quite nicely. Wife uses it for her cricut machine and craft projects.

[bcredeur97]

19 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

it was already unsupported, those models do not run Big Sur. 

 

and to be honest i don't even mind. Catalina is a nightmare on my 2012 13" Unibody (identical in cpu and gpu to the Retina), and i'm debating rolling that back to High Sierra which is what the 2011's got dropped on, since that at least appears more stable on this kind of older hardware. 

 

like, you can't support a product forever, at some point it's better to stop updates because if you keep going the system will end up running like complete crap resulting in a bad experience for the user which you don't want if you're Apple. 

catalina in general was kinda bad. ive seen the word "Crashalina" thrown around a lot. Though I'm sure it's gotten better by now.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

57 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

catalina in general was kinda bad. ive seen the word "Crashalina" thrown around a lot. Though I'm sure it's gotten better by now.

earlier versions of it were actually fine for me, 10.15.4 it got bad and only worse from there

[dalekphalm]

Let's keep a few things in mind about this:

 

Apple and Microsoft have different business models regarding their Operating Systems. Just because Microsoft says "It'll run on systems from 2000" doesn't mean it'll run well or bug free. Many earlier systems will run fine. Many will not. Microsoft will let you install it on pretty much everything, but that doesn't mean they'll provide you with official support.

 

Hardware wise, this isn't even a comparison with Microsoft (unless you're talking like a Surface or something). A more accurate comparison would be vs Dell or HP. I know for a fact it's hard to find OEM 1st party parts for my 2017 HP Spectre x360, so Apple continuing hardware support (Note: Warranty and Hardware support are not the same thing. Do not conflate them) this long is exceptional.

 

Yes there are plenty of things Apple does wrong. They have some bad business practices. Some of the products they make suck.

 

This isn't one of those things.

[Sauron]

24 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Just because Microsoft says "It'll run on systems from 2000" doesn't mean it'll run well or bug free.

True, but in my experience Windows 10 does run quite well even on core 2 systems. They aren't 21 years old but they're significantly older than the retina MBP. Plus support for individual Windows versions (not all but most) has been quite a bit longer than 8 years, so your laptop from 2001 could continue to run Windows XP comfortably for 12 years without huge security concerns - and there's a good chance it could also run 7, which would extend its lifetime to almost 20 years.

 

I guess people can just install something else on their MBP if they want to...

[Distinctly Average]

22 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

look the thread:

>it's been long enough

>can't support something for ever

 

all excuse for what is clearly a bad practice

And your point is? One is a piece of hardware, the other is an operating system. You really cannot mix the two. Apple have stopped support of the hardware, but the OS will still run. There is not a lot of PC hardware supported after 8 years. You can buy spares on the used market, just like you will still be able to with this Apple product. 

[CorruptedTech]

my sister has a 9 year old mac and it still trudges through its workloads and gets things done, but she uses a 2018 mac, it still works perfectly fine.

[Distinctly Average]

5 hours ago, paddy-stone said:

I've never cared about apple products personally. But even less so after last year my brothers first gen Ipad mini  (2013) was made obsolete as it could no longer get software updates OR download any new apps... so basically it's still usable IF you only want to use the apps it already has on it.

7 years for what is essentially a throw away device is not too bad. The iPad mini was really just a big iPhone sans the phone bit. 

[dalekphalm]

9 hours ago, Sauron said:

True, but in my experience Windows 10 does run quite well even on core 2 systems.

I don’t doubt that. We have some Dell Optiplex C2D units at work running W10. 
 

But we also had other systems of similar age that were unstable or had poor performance with W10. 
 

Anecdotes aside, there is a wide variety of possible outcomes with older systems on W10. 

9 hours ago, Sauron said:

They aren't 21 years old but they're significantly older than the retina MBP.

True enough but we are also talking hardware support here too. Dell does better than most, but I’ve literally had problems buying replacement parts with a system just out of warranty (usually just after 5 years, sometimes just after 3 years), on chipsets far more modern than C2D. 

9 hours ago, Sauron said:

Plus support for individual Windows versions (not all but most) has been quite a bit longer than 8 years, so your laptop from 2001 could continue to run Windows XP comfortably for 12 years without huge security concerns - and there's a good chance it could also run 7, which would extend its lifetime to almost 20 years.

True for older versions. But Windows 10 currently has a support model closer to OSX in terms of earlier builds will lose support far quicker. 

9 hours ago, Sauron said:

I guess people can just install something else on their MBP if they want to...

Well the OS isn’t suddenly bricked. You can still use the OS it came with. 
 

You can also install Linux too of course, or even boot camp with Windows. 

[paddy-stone]

15 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

7 years for what is essentially a throw away device is not too bad. The iPad mini was really just a big iPhone sans the phone bit. 

You're missing the point. The device itself still works perfectly fine, so apple by forcing obsolescence on it is not right. This kind of behavior only re-enforces what a scummy company they truly are... and also adds to the land-fill problems that the world has.

At least when some Android products reach EOL in terms of updates, they can still be used... and a lot can also be flashed with a ROM to keep them somewhat up to date at least for security.

[AMD A10-9600P]

22 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

You're missing the point. The device itself still works perfectly fine, so apple by forcing obsolescence on it is not right. This kind of behavior only re-enforces what a scummy company they truly are... and also adds to the land-fill problems that the world has.

At least when some Android products reach EOL in terms of updates, they can still be used... and a lot can also be flashed with a ROM to keep them somewhat up to date at least for security.

Bud, Apple is only discontinuing hardware support, for 8 years that's actually very, very impressive. Find me a Windows laptop OEM that will take back and repair one of their laptops from 2013 in house to restore it to its original glory, I'll wait. It would be fair to say you're on your own after the usual 2 year warranty is up with any other laptop OEM, unless you want to take it to a third party shop and risk using dodgy parts. Apple isn't the only company that won't do hardware updates on computers that are 8 years old, for them to offer support for that long is actually impressive and miles better than the industry standard. To offer support for a machine this old isn't worth it for any company, and also for the user a lot of the time, as although the machine isn't e-waste yet, it ain't that far off. For the average user 8 years is a hell of a good run for a laptop, my last Windows laptop only did 2 and a half before packing in, and I couldn't send it to HP for repair, I had to give up and wait to buy a new one.

 

I'm afraid you're wrong again there. ROMs don't come from the manufacturer themselves, that's like jailbreaking an iPhone with an unofficial community tool and saying it's all thanks to Apple that you've managed to bypass their OS limitations. There are tools out there to bring older Macs up to the latest versions of MacOS, and just like with a ROM, they're unsupported and unofficial. No one is telling you not to use that old MacBook, it'll still work, it just won't update to the latest version, just like an old Windows laptop, or an old Android, or an old iPhone. The only difference is that you're not getting any official updates. Sure, you can still update Windows laptops from 2013 to the newest build, but that doesn't mean it will work well at all, or be officially supported. For what it's worth as well, Android phones generally only receive large feature updates for 1 or 2 years, whereas with iPhones, that continues for 5 or 6. Even after you've received your last iOS or MacOS feature update, Apple still provides you with official security patches, so although support for an entirely new build has gone, you still get security support on an older version of MacOS or iOS. Hell, I have an old iPad mini gen 1 that gets the odd security update, even though official support ended about 5 years ago. My dad has a MacBook Pro from 2009 that still works as it should, and has also had a few security patches. Apple does slow down older iPhones (but that's another debate, as this is about hardware support), but their support for older devices far surpasses that of any other large manufacturer.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no Apple shill, I live and breathe Windows, but in some ways they're just better.

[Blademaster91]

9 minutes ago, AMD A10-9600P said:

Bud, Apple is only discontinuing hardware support, for 8 years that's actually very, very impressive. Find me a Windows laptop OEM that will take back and repair one of their laptops from 2013 in house to restore it to its original glory, I'll wait. It would be fair to say you're on your own after the usual 2 year warranty is up with any other laptop OEM, unless you want to take it to a third party shop and risk using dodgy parts. Apple isn't the only company that won't do hardware updates on computers that are 8 years old, for them to offer support for that long is actually impressive and miles better than the industry standard. To offer support for a machine this old isn't worth it for any company, and also for the user a lot of the time, as although the machine isn't e-waste yet, it ain't that far off. For the average user 8 years is a hell of a good run for a laptop, my last Windows laptop only did 2 and a half before packing in, and I couldn't send it to HP for repair, I had to give up and wait to buy a new one.

It was mentioned in this thread that these laptops don't run the latest version of macOS either, so Apple is discontinuing software support too when the laptop would run just fine for basic daily use.

But this doesn't seem impressive to me at all, and it's the same company that sues anyone that tries to refurbish parts or make third party replacement parts, while you can go get parts for an HP,Dell or Lenovo for example.

[AMD A10-9600P]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

It was mentioned in this thread that these laptops don't run the latest version of macOS either, so Apple is discontinuing software support too when the laptop would run just fine for basic daily use.

But this doesn't seem impressive to me at all, and it's the same company that sues anyone that tries to refurbish parts or make third party replacement parts, while you can go get parts for an HP,Dell or Lenovo for example.

Yep, I covered them not running the latest version of MacOS. For an 8 year old laptop is that really surprising? It would likely struggle to run the most up to date version, which would degrade the overall experience for the average user; shorter battery life, more storage use, less free RAM, running hotter, more fan noise, less responsiveness, more taxing on the CPU, HDD, RAM and GPU. The average user doesn't need the most bleeding edge OS, they just need the machine to work as expected, which can mean staying on an older version that won't tax the system as much. Anyway, they still provide security patches, so the user isn't left totally alone. As for the competitors, Windows laptops usually only have official driver support for the first few months of being released, after which the OEM gives up. With my old laptop I was only able to use a graphics driver from 2016, the year and month of its release, anything newer made the machine unusable, and HP didn't release any drivers to fix those issues. I don't understand why it's surprising to people that an 8 year old laptop isn't officially supported on the latest OS. This isn't so much a scummy marketing tactic, just the machine aging as expected.

 

Apple's first party hardware support excels in comparison to other OEMs. I was unable to send my 2 year old HP laptop to them for a new display or battery, whilst Apple have only just discontinued hardware support for a machine that is 4 times as old. Admittedly, yes, a lot of their practices are scummy, like trying to stop third party replacements, but that doesn't detract from the quality of the services that they themselves provide.

 

Come on, 8 years! If you were using even a 5 year old Windows laptop today you'd have almost zero chance of finding reputable, first party OEM support. I know that for a fact, having looked up parts for my past two non-Apple laptops.

[paddy-stone]

37 minutes ago, AMD A10-9600P said:

Bud, Apple is only discontinuing hardware support, for 8 years that's actually very, very impressive. Find me a Windows laptop OEM that will take back and repair one of their laptops from 2013 in house to restore it to its original glory, I'll wait. It would be fair to say you're on your own after the usual 2 year warranty is up with any other laptop OEM, unless you want to take it to a third party shop and risk using dodgy parts. Apple isn't the only company that won't do hardware updates on computers that are 8 years old, for them to offer support for that long is actually impressive and miles better than the industry standard. To offer support for a machine this old isn't worth it for any company, and also for the user a lot of the time, as although the machine isn't e-waste yet, it ain't that far off. For the average user 8 years is a hell of a good run for a laptop, my last Windows laptop only did 2 and a half before packing in, and I couldn't send it to HP for repair, I had to give up and wait to buy a new one.

 

I'm afraid you're wrong again there. ROMs don't come from the manufacturer themselves, that's like jailbreaking an iPhone with an unofficial community tool and saying it's all thanks to Apple that you've managed to bypass their OS limitations. There are tools out there to bring older Macs up to the latest versions of MacOS, and just like with a ROM, they're unsupported and unofficial. No one is telling you not to use that old MacBook, it'll still work, it just won't update to the latest version, just like an old Windows laptop, or an old Android, or an old iPhone. The only difference is that you're not getting any official updates. Sure, you can still update Windows laptops from 2013 to the newest build, but that doesn't mean it will work well at all, or be officially supported. For what it's worth as well, Android phones generally only receive large feature updates for 1 or 2 years, whereas with iPhones, that continues for 5 or 6. Even after you've received your last iOS or MacOS feature update, Apple still provides you with official security patches, so although support for an entirely new build has gone, you still get security support on an older version of MacOS or iOS. Hell, I have an old iPad mini gen 1 that gets the odd security update, even though official support ended about 5 years ago. My dad has a MacBook Pro from 2009 that still works as it should, and has also had a few security patches. Apple does slow down older iPhones (but that's another debate, as this is about hardware support), but their support for older devices far surpasses that of any other large manufacturer.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no Apple shill, I live and breathe Windows, but in some ways they're just better.

 

I'm not on about hardware support and warranty. I'm on about the fact that the ipad mini now won't even let you install apps on it as you need a newer OS version. So it's basically useless.

That is not the same at all, as I and many other people can still run an older version of Android and install apps on it fine.

[Sauron]

9 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

But Windows 10 currently has a support model closer to OSX in terms of earlier builds will lose support far quicker. 

Well sure, but that comes with the assumption that newer builds will be compatible with the same hardware older builds were and that you can install the update on any hardware that could run the original build of windows 10. Maybe eventually they'll depart from that but so far that hasn't happened.

9 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Well the OS isn’t suddenly bricked. You can still use the OS it came with. 

Yeah but with no security updates that's not really a good idea.

[XenosTech]

9 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Dell does better than most

In my experience Dell can support hardware for over 10 years, IF you're a registered Dell Business partner. At my first job I've had to do services on legacy machines that were running windows 95 and 98 on some ancient optiplexs' that still got support from Dell but that comes at a cost. Not sure if HP and the likes have a similar thing with their business users.

[AMD A10-9600P]

1 hour ago, paddy-stone said:

 

I'm not on about hardware support and warranty. I'm on about the fact that the ipad mini now won't even let you install apps on it as you need a newer OS version. So it's basically useless.

That is not the same at all, as I and many other people can still run an older version of Android and install apps on it fine.

Just tested on my 1st gen iPad mini, and a 2nd gen my brother has; both allowed apps to be installed. My 1st gen mini is 8 years old.

 

I once had a Samsung Galaxy S4 mini, and after just 1 year of owning it I was unable to install some newer and more popular apps, as it required a new version of Android that Samsung never bothered to update the phone to. I was stuck on KitKat forever, with no way of ever updating past it. And that wasn't 8 years after it's release like the iPad mini, but only around a year or so. So yeah, it's definitely not the same thing. Android software support doesn't even come close to Apple, and that isn't the fault of Android itself (for what it's worth, I actually quite like the aesthetic of Android), but of the companies that make the devices.

 

You can also run an older version of iOS just fine; I used to use an iPhone 5s, and had to revert to it after I accidentally broke the screen on my iPhone 7 (which was a first party repair done for free, by the way!). At that point Apple had dropped support for the 5s (which was a long 6 years after its initial release), so it was stuck on iOS 12 and I was still able to use it perfectly fine, installing apps, taking photos I needed for coursework and transferring them to my PC, contacting friends and family, basically everything I needed it could do. And also installing security patches! Just because support for bleeding edge software ends, that doesn't mean the device dies. It worked exactly as expected, and still received security patches. Hell, I could go back to that 5s now! On the contrary, going back to my old S4 mini (released in 2013, the same year as the iPhone 5s) is not a possibility, as there were no security or feature updates, and app support was dwindling, even within the first year or so of me owning it (bought in very early 2014). That S4 mini was just one step down from a flagship, the lack of support was unacceptable. I got my iPhone 5s in 2016, 3 years after its initial release, and was able to happily use it for another 3 years with full software support as it as my daily driver. That S4 mini is well and truly dead, the 5s on the other hand could be ready to be used within an hour or so if ever I need it again.

 

I get that some people hate Apple, but at least make an effort to research the facts and fully read the argument you're opposing, you might learn something.

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, XenosTech said:

In my experience Dell can support hardware for over 10 years, IF you're a registered Dell Business partner. At my first job I've had to do services on legacy machines that were running windows 95 and 98 on some ancient optiplexs' that still got support from Dell but that comes at a cost. Not sure if HP and the likes have a similar thing with their business users.

That's definitely good, although it reinforces one of the things that bugs me about support in Windows and Android circles: this tendency toward short-lived support unless you pay a premium for it. Yeah, it's great that you can get help with a decade-old business PC through a pricey business contract, but if you just bought a $500 consumer laptop? Be thankful if you even get three years, plebe.

 

You see this also in how Android OEMs have long determined update schedules based on how expensive a device is. I've seen budget Android phones that never got a major OS update, and even ones that shipped with a year-old platform (that also never got updated).

 

Apple admittedly skews toward higher-end computers and mobile devices where lengthier support is easier, but that still makes its support more egalitarian. It doesn't matter whether you bought a Mac mini or a decked-out Mac Pro, you'll still get several years of OS updates. It varies a bit based on exact components, but there's rarely a huge gulf. In mobile, the original iPhone SE still runs the latest version of iOS, and will likely continue with security updates and new apps for a while after that; I can't imagine any Samsung phone from 2016 officially running Android 11, let alone the mid-tier models.

[Distinctly Average]

2 hours ago, XenosTech said:

In my experience Dell can support hardware for over 10 years, IF you're a registered Dell Business partner. At my first job I've had to do services on legacy machines that were running windows 95 and 98 on some ancient optiplexs' that still got support from Dell but that comes at a cost. Not sure if HP and the likes have a similar thing with their business users.

 Not always the case. Dell support usually X number of years past end of sales life. Fujitsu and HP do the same. Sometimes prolongation is available but not always. It depends on parts availability. Often it can be something like the custom PSU or a third party card that is no longer available new. They will not buy from the used market. I deal with this regularly. Often see kit purchased near end of sales, then it takes a year or two to actually put to use. By then it often only has three years before end of support. Network gear sometimes has a longer life but a lot of that is because it changes less over time. Brocade are a good example of that.

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

That's definitely good, although it reinforces one of the things that bugs me about support in Windows and Android circles: this tendency toward short-lived support unless you pay a premium for it. Yeah, it's great that you can get help with a decade-old business PC through a pricey business contract, but if you just bought a $500 consumer laptop? Be thankful if you even get three years, plebe.

 

You see this also in how Android OEMs have long determined update schedules based on how expensive a device is. I've seen budget Android phones that never got a major OS update, and even ones that shipped with a year-old platform (that also never got updated).

 

Apple admittedly skews toward higher-end computers and mobile devices where lengthier support is easier, but that still makes its support more egalitarian. It doesn't matter whether you bought a Mac mini or a decked-out Mac Pro, you'll still get several years of OS updates. It varies a bit based on exact components, but there's rarely a huge gulf. In mobile, the original iPhone SE still runs the latest version of iOS, and will likely continue with security updates and new apps for a while after that; I can't imagine any Samsung phone from 2016 officially running Android 11, let alone the mid-tier models.

That's also thanks to Apple only releasing very few models every year. Opposed to Samsung releasing 5 new phones just while I'm typing this post. And 5 more next week. No wonder they can't support so many phones when they are literally shitting them out of their factories.

[paddy-stone]

2 hours ago, AMD A10-9600P said:

I get that some people hate Apple, but at least make an effort to research the facts and fully read the argument you're opposing, you might learn something.

 

I don't need to research it, it's what actually has happened. I even reset it for him a few times to see if it fixed the problem, and it didn't. Just because someone has a different experience to yours doesn't mean they are wrong. And don''t be so arrogant, then you  might learn something too.

So I guess after experiencing these problems of my brother's and researching it to see if I could help him fix it wasn't enough then? what, I should go and buy another one or something?? 

 

Anyway, another arrogant prick on my ignore list. This site gets worse every bloody week. 

[Commodus]

25 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

That's also thanks to Apple only releasing very few models every year. Opposed to Samsung releasing 5 new phones just while I'm typing this post. And 5 more next week. No wonder they can't support so many phones when they are literally shitting them out of their factories.

That's true. Although I would add that Samsung is getting better about both device variety and support with promises that all new phones get at least four years of security updates, not just the nicer models. I do think Samsung still cuts its phone lineup a bit too fine, but it's difficult to completely avoid that when the company has to cater to everyone from a spare-nothing flagship buyer to someone for whom even a $150 phone is a huge expense.

[AMD A10-9600P]

3 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

 

I don't need to research it, it's what actually has happened. I even reset it for him a few times to see if it fixed the problem, and it didn't. Just because someone has a different experience to yours doesn't mean they are wrong. And don''t be so arrogant, then you  might learn something too.

So I guess after experiencing these problems of my brother's and researching it to see if I could help him fix it wasn't enough then? what, I should go and buy another one or something?? 

 

Anyway, another arrogant prick on my ignore list. This site gets worse every bloody week. 

Well I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that product then, but again, just because my experience was different to yours, that does not mean that every user will have had a negative experience with that older iPad. My brother still often uses a 1st gen iPad mini to watch BBC iPlayer, play music and watch videos with zero issues. My nan uses one for her emails, browsing and FaceTiming, and has done for the past 7 or so years, with, you guessed it, zero issues. I have only had positive experiences with them, even 8 years after their initial release.

 

Just because I won't bend to your argument, that does not mean I'm arrogant. I don't expect you to bend to my exact point of view, as you shouldn't expect me to bend to yours. You've had your experiences, you have your opinions, I've had my experiences, I have my opinions. Diversity and freedom of opinion and experience are amazing things. It's no skin off my back if you don't agree with what I've said, but I've presented a great deal of evidence to support the fact that Apple supports hardware and software a hell of a lot better than the majority of other brands. Besides, you're ignoring a lot of the facts anyway; I'd love for you to find an 8 year old Android tablet that works better than the 1st gen iPad mini does in 2021, I can guarantee the experience on the iPad is much more fluid, modern and safer, owing to longer software support and security patches. There's a reason Android tablets are hard to come by... (well, many reasons actually...) Anyway, you might learn something mate.......

 

Haha you're gatekeeping the Linus Tech Tips site now? Again, I'm not arrogant for not believing exactly what you do, what is arrogant though is wanting to gatekeep forums just because you've heard opinions and experiences that don't fit your own. Forgive me for adding to the discussion on an online forum! What a crime!