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Nvidia Unhackable RTX 3060 anti-miners driver has just been hacked (this time for real)

Wail3Y
3 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

Of course it is a bit hypocritical, but why not? The same could be said for a vegan like me who is driving a car with parts that may have come from animals, Thing is, we have to start somewhere or nothing will ever change. We cannot endlessly consume for nothing but wealth. I am sure the fossil fuel and electricity generation industry are investing heavily in crypto at the moment. Hopefully etherium are right and the industry will change, as the exponential rise cannot continue forever.

Saying "I am a vegan and I am trying my best, but some things like my car is out of my control and may have some parts that comes from animals in it" is fine by me. You're trying to your best and doing what you believe in.

 

My problem are with the people who are complaining about miners using a lot of power, and then refuse to change anything about their own habits which contributes just as much to destroying the environment (or around 90% as much, at least). They aren't trying their best to minimize their damage. They want everyone else to do it instead.

They only make the argument for environment protection when it is convenient for them. When the same argument might be used against them they ignore it or don't think it's important.

 

If you want an analogy, it's like watching a person who dislikes the taste of beef crusade against beef-eaters saying the beef-industry is harming the environment, while holding a KFC bucket of chicken in one hand and a porkchop in the other. When questioned about why that person thinks eating beef is wrong but eating pork and chicken is okay they start talking about how they enjoy eating pork and chicken and since it's not as bad it's totally fine and should not be questioned or restricted in any way shape or form.

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4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Saying "I am a vegan and I am trying my best, but some things like my car is out of my control and may have some parts that comes from animals in it" is fine by me. You're trying to your best and doing what you believe in.

 

My problem are with the people who are complaining about miners using a lot of power, and then refuse to change anything about their own habits which contributes just as much to destroying the environment (or around 90% as much, at least). They aren't trying their best to minimize their damage. They want everyone else to do it instead.

They only make the argument for environment protection when it is convenient for them. When the same argument might be used against them they ignore it or don't think it's important.

 

If you want an analogy, it's like watching a person who dislikes the taste of beef crusade against beef-eaters saying the beef-industry is harming the environment, while holding a KFC bucket of chicken in one hand and a porkchop in the other. When questioned about why that person thinks eating beef is wrong but eating pork and chicken is okay they start talking about how they enjoy eating pork and chicken and since it's not as bad it's totally fine and should not be questioned or restricted in any way shape or form.

I’ve not eaten meat since I was 12 and am now heading for the wrong end of my 40s. In all that time I can honestly say I have never evangelised to anyone. In fact most people don’t know of my dietary choice. Same for would apply to gaming and mining, I would feel hypocritical to bemoan mining as someone with multiple computers and consoles in my home. I do feel Etherium have made a good decision as anything to reduce consumption has to be good.

 

I do think the whole industry needs to consider their position. It would be good marketing to have more compute power for less electricity, Apple have shown that with the M1 to some extent as have mobile x86 CPUs these last couple of generations. I am not looking forward to needing a 2KW PSU in my desktop. It was only a couple of years ago on these very forums I was lambasted for buying an 850w for my new build, something now essential for many assuming you can actually buy a PSU, CPU or GPU these days.

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19 hours ago, leadeater said:

Not that miners would do it but that means (potentially) all you need is a PCIe backplane with a PCIe switch SoC in it that gives each slot x8 connectivity and just shares a larger uplink to a PCIe HBA in the system. That along with VGA converters and you could have multi GPU mining again, unless there is another condition you were not able to check for and that is multiple GPUs (of 3060's), if hash rate drops for 2nd or 3rd even with all these other conditions met.

Well stuffs like these exists, but they're extremely niche and probably aren't electrically x8 anyways as there was never a need for that

image.png.af9d50779f862cc77b1fc1ec10dc3258.png

 

HDMI dummy plugs seems to alleviate the limits.

So if people truly wanted to mine on a 3060, they could just plug them all onto this kind of board with 3.0 x8 lanes electrically

 

Next question is, are they limiting the amount of 3060 in a single system? If they haven't already then it's too late, there's already a driver without the limit

 

But, from my testings, I would place the 3060 as the same tier as 3090 for mining, it's a shit card for the job compared to other offerings of the same generation

But in the end it depends on availability of other cards and the adjusted pricing of the 3060 after this news broke (for my region, price jumped by roughly 5% overnight of this news)

 

Personally I wouldn't bother, the slot can be used by a 3080 which has about the same efficiency but double the hash per slot used, without any of the headaches

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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29 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

But, from my testings, I would place the 3060 as the same tier as 3090 for mining, it's a shit card for the job compared to other offerings of the same generation

I'd also say it's good for someone that built a budget rig(when you can get them at MSRP) and want to recoup costs. 

Yeah you won't get rich, but run it at night and thats your next CPU. 

Not sure if you saw, but I went on a bit of a rant earlier about people blaming the wrong people. This kind of ties into that.

Yeah, it's not great for the environment. Yes a portion is used for crime, but in reality stuff we all do from day to day uses much more electricity with little to no personal gain. Makes more sense to me to cut back on that stuff instead. 

I'm not actually trying to be as grumpy as it seems.

I will find your mentions of Ikea or Gnome and I will /s post. 

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3 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

I'd also say it's good for someone that built a budget rig(when you can get them at MSRP) and want to recoup costs. 

Definitely agree, I'm talking from a purely mining perspective

 

3 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Yeah you won't get rich, but run it at night and thats your next CPU. 

People think clicking few buttons to get money isn't worth their time apparently, I won't argue with that, their PC, their time, their resources, their choices

 

What I don't understand is that why people (I assume gamers) are bashing Nvidia for unlocking a feature that 99% benefits them even if you don't mine, other people can use it as a tool to recoup the cost, while large scale miners can't, what more do you want?

 

8 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Not sure if you saw, but I went on a bit of a rant earlier about people blaming the wrong people. This kind of ties into that.

I did not 👀 -digs-

 

8 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Makes more sense to me to cut back on that stuff instead

Eh, pot calling kettle black, there's no end to it if we're trying to discuss "worth", especially when the one party is defending themselves while the other party knows less about what they're talking about and keeps being hypocrites.

As spotty requested, the discussion about ethicality of mining ends.

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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Not gonna do much as it primarily is only good for gamers who wanna mine as it only works with one gpu in the system and a display plugged in apparently.

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3 hours ago, Pastelle said:

Not gonna do much as it primarily is only good for gamers who wanna mine as it only works with one gpu in the system and a display plugged in apparently.

But that's the thing, it doesn't help gamers either!

If you wanna game on this thing, you will want to stay on relatively recent drivers.
But if you do that, then you can't mine because that only works on this one particular beta driver, which might not even be entirely stable for gaming.

 

Only way this can kinda work is if you keep 2 separate Windows installations and one of them stays perpetually on the beta drivers, and you keep having to change from one installation to the other depending on what you're doing with the computer. I mean, sure, it's doable, but it's also kind of a pain in the ass.

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6 minutes ago, Rauten said:

But that's the thing, it doesn't help gamers either!

If you wanna game on this thing, you will want to stay on relatively recent drivers.
But if you do that, then you can't mine because that only works on this one particular beta driver, which might not even be entirely stable for gaming.

 

Only way this can kinda work is if you keep 2 separate Windows installations and one of them stays perpetually on the beta drivers, and you keep having to change from one installation to the other depending on what you're doing with the computer. I mean, sure, it's doable, but it's also kind of a pain in the ass.

I'm assuming that it'll roll out to stable version of the driver from now on

But for now, yea it's only in this particular driver

 

What I'm concerned about is that Nvidia decides to can this "feature" because of the community backlash based on the misunderstanding of the beta driver.

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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12 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I'm assuming that it'll roll out to stable version of the driver from now on

But for now, yea it's only in this particular driver

 

What I'm concerned about is that Nvidia decides to can this "feature" because of the community backlash based on the misunderstanding of the beta driver.

With how quickly they took down the driver (pointless) and their plans to include the same limiter in future cards, yeah... I think this is here to stay.

Unless someone manages to bust this open using the current driver as a basis, with some reverse engineering magic.

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19 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

 


Yeah, it's not great for the environment. Yes a portion is used for crime, but in reality stuff we all do from day to day uses much more electricity with little to no personal gain. Makes more sense to me to cut back on that stuff instead. 

When trying to change anything, you have to come at it from all angles. You cannot say “my bit is alright”  and suggest another is not when intrinsically they are the same thing.

 

Things being used for crime? That will always happen and there is little we can do to stop that, but we can all reduce our carbon footprint. Here it is asking both GPU makers and crypto providers to change tack and consider their position environmentally. One or two crypto providers are planning just that, moving away from a work based model. nVidia seem to be making a token gesture here and nothing more. When they have more bang for crypto options available it seems a very odd move to target a product few will buy, even if/when they are actually on the shelves.

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8 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Yeah, clearly that was rather naïve to check that the port was populated rather than check that the port has an actual monitor on it.

 

https://www.geeks3d.com/20170609/simple-display-emulator-with-an-hdmi-vga-adapter/

 

Like this shouldn't be possible and the GPU should be treating it as a short and shutting the GPU down. 

 

There's also a pretty clear fix. For HDMI ports, if the device doesn't have HDMI 2.0, HDCP, it's not a monitor. Already monitors that don't support HDCP tend to force all ones that do to not support HDCP either. So the less-naïve way of doing this is to query for an invalid configuration, and if it's accepted, it's not a monitor. Query the DDC EDID for the DisplayID, and Product Identification and don't accept "empty" parameters that don't make sense. 

 

Now of course, someone making a HDMI emulator would never implement HDCP. Even existing ways of splitting HDMI do not implement it. So if the device says it's use case is anything that requires HDCP, and can't perform it, then it's not a real monitor. Many Chinese monitors and tablet screens do not support HDCP either. So that might prevent those from working as well. But the point still stands that Nvidia didn't really test this on a real-world scenario, only a very naive "someone bought 2 gpu's and put them in a pc", because this was unlikely to affect those willing to put up the money to make them work (Eg those motherboards with a dozen PCIe 1 links.) 

 

Which I have to repeat, nvidia doesn't know your use case, what if your use case was legitimately running signage in an airport and each exit to the building had a dozen monitors on it. If this limiter was imposed on it, suddenly the performance would be pretty terrible for no reason other than HDCP was disabled.

 

So I think if the limiters were to continue to be used on new products just to dissuade people from buying pallets of them, they have to focus on the PCIe link and number of GPU's in the system and if they're being virtualized and just plain ignore if a monitor is attached or not. Clearly any GPU running at 1X is not being used (realistically) for gaming, but that doesn't mean it's being used for mining. It could be any kind of distributed rendering system or folding@home or something else that comes out 5 years from now that is more valuable than cryptocoins. Like for the x50, x60 and x70 parts, the lack of the nvlink is reason enough to "cripple" additional GPU's from a SLI scenario if the link isn't 8 lanes to the CPU anyway.

 

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