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First professional review of Intel's Rocket Lake (11700K) is out.. and it's a disaster

10 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

The thing though is that due to all the 10nm woes, Intel’s engineers have also spent a lot of those 5 years polishing the absolute heck out of the 14nm Skylake-based architecture to the point where it would be a herculean task for the 10nm-based parts to even come close to the clockspeed and overall desktop performance it could muster. Though the fact they backported the Sunny Cove cores from Ice Lake on 14nm does kind of show that Skylake was already running into hard limits. 

 

Not defending them here, but the general reaction to Rocket Lake well before Intel showcased seems to be a collective “meh”, because we knew Alder Lake is coming soon with a lot of changes and Rocket Lake is really just a gap-closer in a sense. Unless one needs AVX-512 or PCIe Gen4 in an Intel platform right now, Comet Lake or even Coffee Lake’s still more than fine.

 

Everyone’s already said it; Rocket Lake is a bad release relative to what we’ve seen in the last few. There’s no need to keep beating a dead horse when the horse itself is already dying before it even reached the racetrack. Is it a bad product? Not necessarily but it’s not compelling enough for people to just not wait for Alder Lake/Zen 4 or buy discounted Comet Lake parts when they really need something from Intel right now.

I guess I'm just baffled they even bothered releasing this thing. They would've been better off just taking the L for a year while Alder Lake finishes, especially since the gap between the two is seemingly going to be less than six full months. All Rocket Lake does is further the perception that Intel has become a joke in the desktop market, it's also negatively impacted the last thing Intel had going for them (gaming performance).

 

I mean could you imagine if Nvidia went five years just releasing refreshes of Pascal on 14nm, and then they finally come out with a new architecture.. and the best thing you could say about it is that its just marginally better in some areas? I'm not even going to mention performance regressions in this analogy because apparently that ticks people off because "CpUs ArE CoMpLeX" even though there have been countless releases throughout history that were across the board better in real world tasks than their predecessors.

 

I feel for the engineers that had to waste their time on this.

15 minutes ago, comander said:

Speculation - internal cache timings suck. 

 

Intel made the uarch on the assumption that it would be used with 10nm. 

 

14nm, naively, is 40% longer. If you have a block of cache, getting an electron from one end to the other will take 40% longer if you're going left/right. If you're doing manhattan distance from opposite ends of the block it's +80% relative to 10nm. 

 

If you hadn't to slow down timings so that the electrons have time to move across the cache... Well... There goes most of your IPC uplift. 

 

It's possible that clocking the design to the moon will help a bit but...

Just another reason why Rocket Lake should've never been released. Low latency was one of Intel's big strengths, and they blew it here.

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29 minutes ago, illegalwater said:

I feel for the engineers that had to waste their time on this.

Just another reason why Rocket Lake should've never been released. Low latency was one of Intel's big strengths, and they blew it here.

To be fair, I'm speculating. 

 

With that said, this could be practice for future designs that aren't as tied down to any one process. 

 

There's also the possibility that new BIOSes will generate some uplift. 

 

Beyond that the flagship is the 10900k not the 10700. 

 

At the end of the day though, this is a 5800x released half a year late with extra watts and in no way competes with the 5950x except in AVX512. 

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I feel like 11th gen was made just for the sake of having at least 2 generation of cpu's on this socket before they move to whatever else they've got. Still 225W power consumption in POV-Ray and as high as 290W in AVX512 is quite ridiculous. And from the looks at gaming performance, AMD may not have to lower their prices, let's hope that maybe a BIOS update will improve gaming performance at least. Regardless, things don't look so great at the moment for Intel.

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25 minutes ago, comander said:

Beyond that the flagship is the 10900k not the 10700K. 

The 10900K is also 8C/16T, and from my understanding, will just be a cherry-picked 10700K.

REFRESH BEFORE RESPOND, I EDITED MY POST

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8 minutes ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

And from the looks at gaming performance, AMD may not have to lower their prices...

That's the disappointing part.

 

I really, really hope Intel doesn't have the nerve to insist on charging a premium over the already significant premium AMD has put on Zen 3 for RKL-S, for a product that, so far, looks to be the inferior option in performance outside of some fringe cases like AVX-512.

 

Before Zen 3, Intel had a point to why its products tend to cost a bit more than the equivalent Ryzen; they were the best choice for gaming. Now though, I don't think even Intel's reliability factor is significant enough to warrant paying more for their products at this point.

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Well, RIP Intel.

 

Soon there will be literally no reason for most users to choose them over AMD.

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21 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

The 10900K is also 8C/16T, and from my understanding, will just be a cherry-picked 10700K.

10900K? I know Intel naming is bad but releasing new products with the exact same name as current products, wow that is bad.

 

Spoiler

I think you both mean 11700K/11900K :old-smile:

 

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On 3/5/2021 at 11:21 PM, TrigrH said:

121878.png

No further comment necessary. 

Apple Silicon just entered the chat

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3 hours ago, illegalwater said:

I'm not even going to mention performance regressions in this analogy because apparently that ticks people off because "CpUs ArE CoMpLeX" even though there have been countless releases throughout history that were across the board better in real world tasks than their predecessors.

Well since you did mention it, and since you did mock me I'll respond by quoting the article you apparently didn't even read before posting:

 

 

Quote

All workloads at their core, even when browsing the web or word processing, can be split into integer (whole numbers, most workloads) and floating point (numbers with decimal places, workloads with math). In our testing, we saw the following:

  • Single thread floating point: +19.0%
  • Multi-thread floating point: +19.5%

Sounds great, right?

  • Single thread integer: +13.0%
  • Multi-thread integer: +7.3%

Oh. While Intel’s claim of +19% is technically correct, it only seems to apply to math-heavy workloads. The benefits of non math-based throughput are still better than average, 7-13%, but vary rarely do Intel’s big claims come with an easily identifiable asterisk.

When we look at our real-world data, in almost every benchmark the 11700K either matches or beats the 10700K, and showcases the IPC gain in tests like Dolphin, Blender, POV-Ray, Agisoft, Handbrake, web tests, and obviously SPECfp. It scores a big win in our 3DPM AVX test, because it has AVX-512 and none of the other CPUs do.

 

Let me repeat that.

in almost every benchmark the 11700K either matches or beats the 10700K, and showcases the IPC gain in tests like Dolphin, Blender, POV-Ray, Agisoft, Handbrake, web tests, and obviously SPECfp

 

Can you please stop pretending like there is a performance regression when there isn't? It is slightly slower in some benchmarks, mostly games, where it it doesn't even matter because it's like 200 FPS vs 190 FPS, or within margin of error.

Meanwhile you completely ignore most benchmarks where there is a ~10% performance integer performance increase, and about a 20% fp performance increase.

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42 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Well since you did mention it, and since you did mock me I'll respond by quoting the article you apparently didn't even read before posting:

 

 

 

Let me repeat that.

in almost every benchmark the 11700K either matches or beats the 10700K, and showcases the IPC gain in tests like Dolphin, Blender, POV-Ray, Agisoft, Handbrake, web tests, and obviously SPECfp

 

Can you please stop pretending like there is a performance regression when there isn't? It is slightly slower in some benchmarks, mostly games, where it it doesn't even matter because it's like 200 FPS vs 190 FPS, or within margin of error.

Meanwhile you completely ignore most benchmarks where there is a ~10% performance integer performance increase, and about a 20% fp performance increase.

You say there isn't performance regression then immediately proceed to say it's slightly slower in some benchmarks. Sounds like regression to me, but okay?

 

Oh and FYI Rocket Lake caps out at 8 cores, so compared to Comet Lake it's literally going to be a regression in performance for any workload that scales with cores, the IPC gains just aren't enough to make up a 2 core deficit.

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1 hour ago, illegalwater said:

You say there isn't performance regression then immediately proceed to say it's slightly slower in some benchmarks. Sounds like regression to me, but okay?

You: The new Intel CPUs are slower than the old ones!

Me: No they aren't. On average they are 10-20% faster. They are slower in some meaningless tests and in those it's an unnoticeable difference.

You: So you agree with me! I am right!

 

You are correct in the same sense that I would be correct in saying Zen 3 performs worse than Zen 3. It is technically correct in some specific scenarios, but it is incorrect if we are talking about performance in most scenarios, which is what matters.

 

 

1 hour ago, illegalwater said:

Oh and FYI Rocket Lake caps out at 8 cores, so compared to Comet Lake it's literally going to be a regression in performance for any workload that scales with cores, the IPC gains just aren't enough to make up a 2 core deficit.

Yes, and what is your point?

Again, you are talking about very specific scenarios (programs that fully utilize more than 8 cores), and comparing CPUs in two different price brackets (the 8 core Rocket Lake chip will most likely be significantly cheaper than the 10 core Skylake processor) and trying to make it out as if that's the overall chip.

 

Why are you not satisfied with giving an accurate depiction of these new chips? 10-20% faster than the old ones on average, but not enough to catch up with AMD's offerings.

Intel is still slower and uses more power. There is no need to exaggerate the power draws by looking at AVX512 numbers. There is no reason to cherry pick benchmarks to try and paint them in worse light than necessary. 

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8 hours ago, illegalwater said:

You say there isn't performance regression then immediately proceed to say it's slightly slower in some benchmarks. Sounds like regression to me, but okay?

 

Oh and FYI Rocket Lake caps out at 8 cores, so compared to Comet Lake it's literally going to be a regression in performance for any workload that scales with cores, the IPC gains just aren't enough to make up a 2 core deficit.

They’ve got a point though. There were numerous productivity benchmarks that showed the increased IPC. However, the dip in overall latency was apparent in the gaming benchmarks though they were also mostly apparent at the 1080p low benchmarks, especially with a 2080 Ti. Hardware Unboxed’s Steven Walton also made a point that some games may not be nearly as latency dependent, so there may be some titles where the IPC gain is apparent.

 

For a lot of CPUs, it’s kind of a give-and-take situation. Not everything is going to be universally better in a new generation and some things will have to give. It’s mostly a question of whether what is gained is significant enough to offset what’s being taken away. 

 

With Rocket Lake, the goal of it is very clearly to extract as much IPC out of it as possible. The move to Cypress Cove cores, which are backported 10nm Sunny Cove cores on 14nm mixed in with Xe execution units hints at hard limitations on extracting more out of the now 5+ year old Skylake micro-arch. Whilst they certainly hit that goal, we’d be remiss if we also didn’t look at what they had to sacrifice. Is it noticeable in the real-world? Honestly, not really, but it’s also hugely disappointing in the sense that it’s not really any better than Comet Lake in a manner that makes it significant.

 

The big question mark is the price. With the performance we saw, and assuming these hold up at launch, then I personally think the best they do is suck it up, swallow their pride and undercut Zen 3. While there will be reasons to buy Intel, in a pure numbers and performance sense, AMD has the superior product. This is especially true for the Core i9 11900K, where it most likely has a significant disadvantage in both gaming and productivity. The disappointment will grow if Intel decides to charge a premium over Zen 3 for what looks like an inferior product. Remember that AMD already had a significant premium on their Zen 3 parts over Zen 2. Even more expensive CPUs will be an even tougher pill to swallow.

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12 hours ago, illegalwater said:

I guess I'm just baffled they even bothered releasing this thing. They would've been better off just taking the L for a year while Alder Lake finishes, especially since the gap between the two is seemingly going to be less than six full months. All Rocket Lake does is further the perception that Intel has become a joke in the desktop market, it's also negatively impacted the last thing Intel had going for them (gaming performance).

 

I mean could you imagine if Nvidia went five years just releasing refreshes of Pascal on 14nm, and then they finally come out with a new architecture.. and the best thing you could say about it is that its just marginally better in some areas? I'm not even going to mention performance regressions in this analogy because apparently that ticks people off because "CpUs ArE CoMpLeX" even though there have been countless releases throughout history that were across the board better in real world tasks than their predecessors.

 

Basically, Intel has to. They need to keep investors happy and the only way to do that is to keep releasing product. They also need to appease system integrators and retail parents. Not to mention that simply not releasing Rocket Lake would mean tens of millions of dollars just flushed down the toilet from a completed design never being used. Plus, these things will sell. With AMD’s stock still being rough and the Intel name, Rocket Lake will push units. It will give them time to, hopefully, get something competitive to market. Leaving the market bare for an entire cycle would be disastrous.

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31 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Basically, Intel has to. They need to keep investors happy and the only way to do that is to keep releasing product. They also need to appease system integrators and retail parents.

I'll give you that.

 

Although I don't feel like it would've been that offensive to investors and system integrators if they had asked for an extra six months on Comet Lake. They could've sold it as a marketing thing by advertising Alder Lake as having a colossal performance bump over Comet Lake. Then again maybe Intel will just ignore Rocket Lake in the marketing anyway and plaster "~40% performance boost over Skylake!" everywhere.

36 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Not to mention that simply not releasing Rocket Lake would mean tens of millions of dollars just flushed down the toilet from a completed design never being used.

That's pocket change to Intel, companies their size write off losses like that all the time.

36 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Plus, these things will sell. With AMD’s stock still being rough and the Intel name, Rocket Lake will push units. It will give them time to, hopefully, get something competitive to market.

AMD's stock situation is getting better though, the 5600X and 5800X are coming in stock more frequently and for longer, Intel can't bank on that for much longer.

41 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Leaving the market bare for an entire cycle would be disastrous.

They wouldn't be leaving it bare though, Comet Lake is still competitive in the low end to mid range markets, especially for gaming. Plus AMD has nothing new coming this year unless you believe that sketchy rumor of a Zen 3 refresh in Q4, which wouldn't be relevant anyway because that'd be competing with Alder Lake, not Rocket Lake.

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17 minutes ago, illegalwater said:

I'll give you that.

 

Although I don't feel like it would've been that offensive to investors and system integrators if they had asked for an extra six months on Comet Lake. They could've sold it as a marketing thing by advertising Alder Lake as having a colossal performance bump over Comet Lake. Then again maybe Intel will just ignore Rocket Lake in the marketing anyway and plaster "~40% performance boost over Skylake!" everywhere.

 

Six months? Alder Lake isn't scheduled to go into volume production until the second half of the year, assuming there are no delays. If it even manages to launch this year it won't be until Q4, maybe super late Q3. 2022 is entirely possible for Alder Lake at this point.

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55 minutes ago, Derangel said:

 

Six months? Alder Lake isn't scheduled to go into volume production until the second half of the year, assuming there are no delays. If it even manages to launch this year it won't be until Q4, maybe super late Q3. 2022 is entirely possible for Alder Lake at this point.

Comet Lake-S release date: April 30th 2020

Comet Lake-S one year anniversary plus six months: October 30th 2021

 

Literally in the middle of Q4..

 

Why is Intel so opposed to longer product cycles anyway? They seem to have worked pretty well for AMD. They work just fine in the GPU market too.

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4 hours ago, illegalwater said:

Comet Lake-S release date: April 30th 2020

Comet Lake-S one year anniversary plus six months: October 30th 2021

 

Literally in the middle of Q4..

 

Why is Intel so opposed to longer product cycles anyway? They seem to have worked pretty well for AMD. They work just fine in the GPU market too.

I'm going to say the Spectre/Meltdown had something to do with all these revisions of the Skylake 14nm

 

First of all, there wasn't enough testing done on Skylake, thus all these exploits wound up in every version of the chip on 14nm up to the 10th gen cpu. Second of all, they aren't (apparently) using the same dies on the mobile parts, and Intel has been prioritizing mobile parts, despite how utterly terrible the performance is.

 

See Apple's ARM CPU. There is something wrong with everything you're doing when an ARM part can run circles around it. So because Apple has decided to release ARM based laptops (not just tablets) now, that lights a fire under HP, Dell, Lenovo, Samsung, etc's butts to release an ARM laptop as well, and that requires relying on Microsoft to release an ARM OS, and we've all seen what's happened before with Windows RT.

 

If you like Mac's in general, the ARM based laptop kicks the Intel laptop's behind in every way except RAM. Release a 32GB RAM model laptop, and you'll likely have most mid-tier professionals willing to replace their existing laptop in a heartbeat.  High-end laptops (and desktops) however still aren't going to be at parity with an ARM part for probably 2 years. So Intel still has some time to catch up, but AMD has already beaten Intel to that punch. Unless Intel has been working on 3nm all this time is is going to put out chips on 3nm before AMD gets to, they're going to get lapped.

 

Intel kept putting stuff out on 14nm because that's their stable platform, and desktops/servers aren't quite as sensitive to TDP, unlike laptops. But I would not buy a 14nm cpu unless it was the only CPU available.

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feels like i've been reading of a new intel release every 3 months now

One day I will be able to play Monster Hunter Frontier in French/Italian/English on my PC, it's just a matter of time... 4 5 6 7 8 9 years later: It's finally coming!!!

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On 3/6/2021 at 4:07 AM, porina said:

There is one test result in that review that really doesn't make sense to me, and it is the one you're looking at. That perf increase seems too much but we don't have enough context into understanding it.

its his PHD code optimized by intel and AMD for AVX512

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On 3/6/2021 at 7:40 AM, illegalwater said:

Skylake is over five years old, so I'm sorry but there's no excuse for Rocket Lake performing worse anywhere, it should be better in every scenario. It's disappointing that this is the best Intel can offer after half a decade of stagnation on architecture.

skylake is really 6-7 years old (they were done designing at least 12 months beforehand)

and this is already 2-3 years old.
14nm has been at its limits for 2-3 gens now, its got nothing left to give and the backport clearly didn't help them gain more than a few % in workloads

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On 3/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, MightyMishka said:

I feel bad for Intel, AMD is crushing them right now, even with the silicon shortages and stock problems.

don't feel bad, last time intel was like this they paid to keep their spot as best they could.
 

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"Stupidity is like trying to find a limit of a constant. You are never truly smart in something, just less stupid."  @CircleTech

Camera Gear: Canon SL2, 60D, T5, 24-105 F, 50mm F1.4, 75-300 III, rokinon 25 T1.5, Helios44-m, Sony FS700R, 2 Cos-11D lavs

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It still amazes me how common Intel-based laptops are.

 

It doesn't feel like that long ago they Ryzen ones were rare and only came from a few OEMs. That was when Intel was still clearly ahead. I'm frankly surprised that laptop manufacturers don't now have AMD making up the same proportion of their product line as Intel used to; I can only assume that some of their agreements with Intel were long-term and/or had exclusivity clauses

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pythonmegapixel

into tech, public transport and architecture // amateur programmer // youtuber // beginner photographer

Thanks for reading all this by the way!

By the way, my desktop is a docked laptop. Get over it, No seriously, I have an exterrnal monitor, keyboard, mouse, headset, ethernet and cooling fans all connected. Using it feels no different to a desktop, it works for several hours if the power goes out, and disconnecting just a few cables gives me something I can take on the go. There's enough power for all games I play and it even copes with basic (and some not-so-basic) video editing. Give it a go - you might just love it.

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Just now, pythonmegapixel said:

It still amazes me how common Intel-based laptops are.

 

It doesn't feel like that long ago they Ryzen ones were rare and only came from a few OEMs. That was when Intel was still clearly ahead. I'm frankly surprised that laptop manufacturers don't now have AMD making up the same proportion of their product line as Intel used to; I can only assume that some of their agreements with Intel were long-term and/or had exclusivity clauses

AMD doesn't have enough 7nm supply, they needed to push mobile chips onto 6/5nm this gen to even have a hope of getting enough supply.
They've got at least 40 million laptop APUs not shipping because of the new PS5/Xbox X/S (rough math they can fit 2x more laptop APUs)

Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 2.0: R7 2700 @4.0ghz, B450m Steel Legends, H105, 4x8gb Geil EVO 2866, XFX RX 580 8GB, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 500gb 850 pro and 5tb Toshiba x300

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 730, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Bearcat (F@H box) core 2 duo, 1x4gb EEC DDR2, 250gb WD blue, 9800GTX+, STRIX 660ti, supermicro PSU, dell T3400.

Rappter(unfinished compute server) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

Spirt  (unfinished NAS) Cisco Security Multiservices Platform server e5420 12gb ram, 1x6 1tb raid 6 for plex + Need funding 16+1 2tb raid 6 for mass storage.

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List     SSD Tier List     How to get PC parts cheap    HP probook 445R G6 review

 

"Stupidity is like trying to find a limit of a constant. You are never truly smart in something, just less stupid."  @CircleTech

Camera Gear: Canon SL2, 60D, T5, 24-105 F, 50mm F1.4, 75-300 III, rokinon 25 T1.5, Helios44-m, Sony FS700R, 2 Cos-11D lavs

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1 minute ago, pythonmegapixel said:

It still amazes me how common Intel-based laptops are.

 

It doesn't feel like that long ago they Ryzen ones were rare and only came from a few OEMs. That was when Intel was still clearly ahead. I'm frankly surprised that laptop manufacturers don't now have AMD making up the same proportion of their product line as Intel used to; I can only assume that some of their agreements with Intel were long-term and/or had exclusivity clauses

the answer is complicated but it boils down to:

amd not wanting to byte more than they can shew so they are increasing volume production targets slowly.

amd being quite limited in how much volume they can make overall now that global foundries is almost completely irrelevant (they are still making the io dies there) intel's factories production volume is no joke.

oems not trusting amd as much.

oems not wanting to loose that sweet sweet multi million dollar "advertising" budget, aka the dont sell amd bribe.

those 4 are probably the main ones

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1 minute ago, cj09beira said:

oems not trusting amd as much.

AMD did the whole hand off drivers to the OEMs, that didn't go well. my 3500U would get a broken driver every other month from a windows update, so now linux

Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 2.0: R7 2700 @4.0ghz, B450m Steel Legends, H105, 4x8gb Geil EVO 2866, XFX RX 580 8GB, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 500gb 850 pro and 5tb Toshiba x300

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 730, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Bearcat (F@H box) core 2 duo, 1x4gb EEC DDR2, 250gb WD blue, 9800GTX+, STRIX 660ti, supermicro PSU, dell T3400.

Rappter(unfinished compute server) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

Spirt  (unfinished NAS) Cisco Security Multiservices Platform server e5420 12gb ram, 1x6 1tb raid 6 for plex + Need funding 16+1 2tb raid 6 for mass storage.

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List     SSD Tier List     How to get PC parts cheap    HP probook 445R G6 review

 

"Stupidity is like trying to find a limit of a constant. You are never truly smart in something, just less stupid."  @CircleTech

Camera Gear: Canon SL2, 60D, T5, 24-105 F, 50mm F1.4, 75-300 III, rokinon 25 T1.5, Helios44-m, Sony FS700R, 2 Cos-11D lavs

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