MSI GF65 Thin Severely Underperforming

[spearelockholmes]

Just this weekend, I received an MSI GF65 Thin 9SD-1028 from newegg. As configured:

• Intel i7 9750H - 2730 Cinebench r20
• nvidia GTX 1660Ti Mobile (6GB GDDR6) - 5007 Furmark
• 8GB RAM, Samsung DDR4 3200 mHz
• 512GB Kingston SSD
• 15.6" FHD 144Hz IPS-Level (someone tell me what "level" means here)

Shortly after letting Windows Update do its thing, before updating to windows 1909, I installed Valorant and ran it as I wanted to quickly test the device. (First gaming laptop, upgrading from a crappy HP i5 7200u + amd radeon 520 i had for 3.5 years)

Based on 1660Ti mobile benchmarks, i expected around 150-180fps in Valorant at high settings. Frames never crossed 140, and were never stable, not even when limited to 90. MSI Afterburner's overlay showed that both cpu and gpu were under 80C at all times, and the i7 was running at its base frequency of 2590 mHz while in game. Oddly enough, the moment I'd leave the game it'd boost up to 3.7GHz or so, still staying under 90 (the cpu throttles past 95 mostly) CPUID Hardware Monitor showed a peak cpu power draw of 60w, (it has reached 72w in Cinebench r20) and GPU-z showed max GPU draw of 43w, while Furmark has made it draw more power. I have reset using MSI's factory image already, results remain the same.

 

The system also hit BSODs multiple times while messing around in throttlestop before I reset the thing, including but not limited to: IRQL not less or equal, Unexpected Kernel Mode Trap, and, PFN List Corrupt. I reseated the RAM, and ran memtest86, no errors detected.

 

I cannot understand this behaviour, and since the seller was based in the US (I live in the Middle East) it would be an absolute nightmare to have it returned after waiting for 3 weeks.

 

tldr: cpu won't boost while in game, boosts happily w/out throttle outside game with game in background. Unexpectedly low FPS.

 

I will be oh-so grateful to anyone who can help or offer any advice, will add screenshots soon. 

[curiousmind34]

Try setting your power plan to performance and see if that makes any sort of difference. It's likely something in windows 10 messing with turbo, worse case scenario you might want to reinstall.

 

btw IPS-level display is just marketing.

[spearelockholmes]

4 hours ago, curiousmind34 said:

Try setting your power plan to performance and see if that makes any sort of difference. It's likely something in windows 10 messing with turbo, worse case scenario you might want to reinstall.

 

btw IPS-level display is just marketing.

At the cost of sounding stupid, I can't find any power profile besides balanced, assuming that's the way msi has it setup

[unclewebb]

5 hours ago, spearelockholmes said:

BSODs multiple times while messing around in throttlestop

Were you using ThrottleStop to change your CPU voltage? What sort of settings were you using? You will only see a BSOD if your undervolt is not stable. What sort of stability testing did you do before trying to play a game?

 

Show some screenshots of how you have the program setup and turn on the Log File option. Play a game for at least 15 minutes so you have a record of your CPU performance. When finished testing, exit the game and exit ThrottleStop so it can finalize the log file. Attach a log to your next post or copy and paste the data to http://www.pastebin.com and post a link here.

 

Your Cinebench R20 score confirms that your 9750H is not running as well as it should be running. 

 

Are you using any MSI software like Dragon Center? This software can reduce the turbo power limits to 0 when playing some games. This will disable Intel Turbo Boost so the 9750H will only run at the base frequency, 2594 MHz (26.0 X 99.768 MHz). This MSI hidden feature has screwed up a lot of computers lately. 

 

ThrottleStop 9.3

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowerup-throttlestop/

 

20 minutes ago, spearelockholmes said:

besides balanced

Most modern laptops hide the Windows High Performance power plan. You can use ThrottleStop to access this hidden power plan but it might not be necessary if the real problem is Dragon Center.

[spearelockholmes]

48 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Were you using ThrottleStop to change your CPU voltage? What sort of settings were you using? You will only see a BSOD if your undervolt is not stable. What sort of stability testing did you do before trying to play a game?

 

I used ThrottleStop to offset voltage on CPU core to -169mV, cache offset of -125mV. Ran cinebench r20 twice as a basic stress test.

 

49 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Are you using any MSI software like Dragon Center? This software can reduce the turbo power limits to 0 when playing some games. This will disable Intel Turbo Boost so the 9750H will only run at the base frequency, 2594 MHz (26.0 X 99.768 MHz). This MSI hidden feature has screwed up a lot of computers lately. 

 

Most modern laptops hide the Windows High Performance power plan. You can use ThrottleStop to access this hidden power plan but it might not be necessary if the real problem is Dragon Center.

Yes, I am using dragon center specifically to modify fan curves. I will try these and update this thread shortly with screenshots. 

[unclewebb]

19 minutes ago, spearelockholmes said:

cache offset of -125mV

Some 9750H are not stable with the cache at -125 mV. I would set the cache to -100 mV and the core to -125 mV for a week and see how that works out in general use. I like using Cinebench R20 but this is not a great stress test when setting voltages. You can easily run R20 at a voltage that is not even close to 100% stable. The TS Bench will start showing errors before R20 does when the voltage is set too low. A 5 second TS Bench test is more stressful than two runs of Cinebench R20.

 

 

If you want to keep using Dragon Center then I would suggest using the ThrottleStop Lock option for the turbo power limits. This will prevent Dragon Center from making any changes to your power limits. Once you lock this register, the CPU will no longer drop down to the 26 multiplier when you start playing a game.

 

[spearelockholmes]

49 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Some 9750H are not stable with the cache at -125 mV. I would set the cache to -100 mV and the core to -125 mV for a week and see how that works out in general use. I like using Cinebench R20 but this is not a great stress test when setting voltages. You can easily run R20 at a voltage that is not even close to 100% stable. The TS Bench will start showing errors before R20 does when the voltage is set too low. A 5 second TS Bench test is more stressful than two runs of Cinebench R20.

 

 

If you want to keep using Dragon Center then I would suggest using the ThrottleStop Lock option for the turbo power limits. This will prevent Dragon Center from making any changes to your power limits. Once you lock this register, the CPU will no longer drop down to the 26 multiplier when you start playing a game.

 

Here's the link to the log file. ThrottleStop Log 2400 2021-03-03 - Pastebin.com - Power Limits locked at 70 long, 100 short, High Performance battery profile enabled via Ts

ThrottleStop Log 23:238 2021-03-02 - Pastebin.com This log file was created before I locked the power limits in Ts and enabled High Performance, it led to a BSOD - Kernel Mode Heap Corruption.

 

I have attached a few screenshots. The changes I made to Ts did not help gameplay in anyway, Valorant could not maintain a stable framerate in either run. I have it at medium settings right now.

[unclewebb]

46 minutes ago, spearelockholmes said:

it led to a BSOD

Your screenshot shows that you are still using the same voltage settings that you were using before. You already know your CPU is not stable when the cache offset is set to -125 mV. Try setting the cache offset to -100 mV like I recommended.

 

Most intel 6th Gen and newer CPUs use Speed Shift Technology to control the CPU speed. The BIOS is supposed to enable this automatically. Your computer is not doing this so you need to check Speed Shift in the TPL window to enable Speed Shift Technology. After you do this, you will see SST light up in green on the main screen. Now you can adjust the Speed Shift EPP variable. This is how modern computers control the CPU speed.

 

Your heatsink and fan are not adequate to keep your CPU cool at 68W. You have ThrottleStop set so your CPU is going to run at up to 100W for 28 seconds. Your heatsink cannot handle that power level so thermal throttling and inconsistent performance will be the result. Either slow your CPU down or reduce your turbo power limits. You need to avoid constant thermal throttling. I would set PL1=60 and PL2=75W and Time=8. You do not want your CPU running at the high power limit for 28 seconds. The heatsink cannot handle that. 

 

Check the FIVR Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option. 

 

Turn on the ThrottleStop Log File option and go play a game. If your CPU is thermal throttling, game play is not going to be smooth.

 

You originally said that your computer is not using turbo boost. The log file shows that the CPU is running at 4000 MHz so it is using turbo boost now. The CPU multiplier is at a steady 40.00. That is normal for the 9750H when gaming and the Nvidia GPU is working consistently too.

 

[spearelockholmes]

22 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Your screenshot shows that you are still using the same voltage settings that you were using before. You already know your CPU is not stable when the cache offset is set to -125 mV. Try setting the cache offset to -100 mV like I recommended.

 

Most intel 6th Gen and newer CPUs use Speed Shift Technology to control the CPU speed. The BIOS is supposed to enable this automatically. Your computer is not doing this so you need to check Speed Shift in the TPL window to enable Speed Shift Technology. After you do this, you will see SST light up in green on the main screen. Now you can adjust the Speed Shift EPP variable. This is how modern computers control the CPU speed.

 

Your heatsink and fan are not adequate to keep your CPU cool at 68W. You have ThrottleStop set so your CPU is going to run at up to 100W for 28 seconds. Your heatsink cannot handle that power level so thermal throttling and inconsistent performance will be the result. Either slow your CPU down or reduce your turbo power limits. You need to avoid constant thermal throttling. I would set PL1=60 and PL2=75W and Time=8. You do not want your CPU running at the high power limit for 28 seconds. The heatsink cannot handle that. 

 

Check the FIVR Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option. 

 

Turn on the ThrottleStop Log File option and go play a game. If your CPU is thermal throttling, game play is not going to be smooth.

 

You originally said that your computer is not using turbo boost. The log file shows that the CPU is running at 4000 MHz so it is using turbo boost now.

Did as you suggested. Frame rates remain lower than expected. Maybe a rename of the thread is in order?

 

[unclewebb]

10 minutes ago, spearelockholmes said:

Frame rates remain lower than expected.

Your CPU and GPU are running at their full rated speed. If this laptop is not performing as expected, you either have to lower your expectations or get a different laptop. I do not see anything that you are going to be able to do to get better FPS than what you are getting now.

 

You can set Speed Shift EPP to 0 on the main screen. This tells the CPU to run at maximum speed regardless of load. It should not make any difference to performance but it might help Afterburner report your in game CPU speed correctly. I think it is reading speeds from some of the idle cores.

[spearelockholmes]

12 hours ago, unclewebb said:

Your CPU and GPU are running at their full rated speed. If this laptop is not performing as expected, you either have to lower your expectations or get a different laptop. I do not see anything that you are going to be able to do to get better FPS than what you are getting now.

I would've lowered my expectations if

1. The game could've managed higher than 142fps, (86@ 99th Percentile) while in the menu in lobby, at the lowest graphical settings bar resolution
2. I didn't have a friend with a laptop having an i5 9300H and a GTX 1650 running at over 150 frames on FHD High on the same game.

Do you think carrying out a clean install of Windows would help? 

[unclewebb]

This game does not fully utilize a 4 core CPU so having 6 cores instead of 4 cores is not going to make any significant difference.

 

A 1660 Ti should be able to outperform a GTX 1650. Are you using the exact same version of Windows with the same updates? Are you using the same Nvidia driver version? Is your 8GB of RAM single channel or dual channel? Single channel RAM can kill gaming performance. 

8 hours ago, spearelockholmes said:

clean install of Windows

When you are idle at the desktop with nothing open, no web browsers, no nothing; what does ThrottleStop report for C0%? Double click on the table if you want to see all of your threads. Some computers have too much stuff running in the background. A 6 core CPU should need to spend 0.5% of its time or less in the C0 state processing background tasks. If you cannot get close to that number then look in the Task Manager Details tab to find out what is running on your computer.

 

 

You can use ShutUp10 to get rid of some of the more useless Windows 10 background tasks.

 

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

 

I prefer installing a clean version of Windows 10 directly from Microsoft. Some laptops come with too much bloatware that can slow things down.

 

I am guessing that your biggest problem is single channel memory. Run CPU-Z to see what speed your memory is running at and whether it is single or dual channel.

 

Edit - The build sheet shows 8GB of single channel memory.

https://storage-asset.msi.com/specSheet/us/nb/GF65 THIN 9SD-1028.pdf

 

Post a GPU-Z screenshot. There seems to be old and new 1660 Ti versions. 

 

[spearelockholmes]

 

On 3/3/2021 at 9:46 AM, unclewebb said:

I am guessing that your biggest problem is single channel memory. Run CPU-Z to see what speed your memory is running at and whether it is single or dual channel.

 

 

Post a GPU-Z screenshot. There seems to be old and new 1660 Ti versions. 

 

Yep, single channel Samsung ram, 3200 MHz I believe, not that the chipset supports more than 2666 MHz. Have since performed a clean install of Windows, performance in Valorant remains choppy at best.

[TheDuke203]

On 3/2/2021 at 1:28 PM, spearelockholmes said:

Just this weekend, I received an MSI GF65 Thin 9SD-1028 from newegg. As configured:

• Intel i7 9750H - 2730 Cinebench r20
• nvidia GTX 1660Ti Mobile (6GB GDDR6) - 5007 Furmark
• 8GB RAM, Samsung DDR4 3200 mHz
• 512GB Kingston SSD
• 15.6" FHD 144Hz IPS-Level (someone tell me what "level" means here)

Shortly after letting Windows Update do its thing, before updating to windows 1909, I installed Valorant and ran it as I wanted to quickly test the device. (First gaming laptop, upgrading from a crappy HP i5 7200u + amd radeon 520 i had for 3.5 years)

Based on 1660Ti mobile benchmarks, i expected around 150-180fps in Valorant at high settings. Frames never crossed 140, and were never stable, not even when limited to 90. MSI Afterburner's overlay showed that both cpu and gpu were under 80C at all times, and the i7 was running at its base frequency of 2590 mHz while in game. Oddly enough, the moment I'd leave the game it'd boost up to 3.7GHz or so, still staying under 90 (the cpu throttles past 95 mostly) CPUID Hardware Monitor showed a peak cpu power draw of 60w, (it has reached 72w in Cinebench r20) and GPU-z showed max GPU draw of 43w, while Furmark has made it draw more power. I have reset using MSI's factory image already, results remain the same.

 

The system also hit BSODs multiple times while messing around in throttlestop before I reset the thing, including but not limited to: IRQL not less or equal, Unexpected Kernel Mode Trap, and, PFN List Corrupt. I reseated the RAM, and ran memtest86, no errors detected.

 

I cannot understand this behaviour, and since the seller was based in the US (I live in the Middle East) it would be an absolute nightmare to have it returned after waiting for 3 weeks.

 

tldr: cpu won't boost while in game, boosts happily w/out throttle outside game with game in background. Unexpectedly low FPS.

 

I will be oh-so grateful to anyone who can help or offer any advice, will add screenshots soon. 

After reading some of the converstaion I think I may have some advice.

I also bought an MSI gf65 thin i7 9750H rtx 2060 £650 but it only has 8gb at 2666mhz ram at single channel ram, and with the single channel memroy its frames are super inconsistant and it is annoying as hell. But I am hoping to buy another stick of ram and from what I've seen online that gives like like 20-30 % boost in fps going from single channel to dual channel

[spearelockholmes]

On 5/17/2021 at 7:18 PM, TheDuke203 said:

After reading some of the converstaion I think I may have some advice.

I also bought an MSI gf65 thin i7 9750H rtx 2060 £650 but it only has 8gb at 2666mhz ram at single channel ram, and with the single channel memroy its frames are super inconsistant and it is annoying as hell. But I am hoping to buy another stick of ram and from what I've seen online that gives like like 20-30 % boost in fps going from single channel to dual channel

Quick update : i have since doubled the ram with a stick of 2666MHz ram from Crucial. Performance has improved greatly, except for a few issues caused by the power limits I set in ThrottleStop. 

[Alexsheff93]

17 hours ago, spearelockholmes said:

Quick update : i have since doubled the ram with a stick of 2666MHz ram from Crucial. Performance has improved greatly, except for a few issues caused by the power limits I set in ThrottleStop. 

I'm pretty late to the convo but do you have a mux switch on there, optimus likes to reduce performance.