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USPS is getting new trucks but only 10% are electric

GDRRiley

Is that image really what they will look like? They look hilarious! 

In my city postage is delivered by electric three wheeler bikes. They drive down the footpath and the road. They are kind of like the old gyro pizza delivery bikes but modern and electric. I wonder why USPS isnt using electric bikes. Maybe everything in USA really is bigger including mail envelopes that you need a truck to service a neighborhood. 

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32 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

All of those factors will improve with time.

 

As for charging at home - installing a home charging station is really cheap compared to the cost of the vehicle, do people not do that? That's not a concern for the post office as they'll be having charging infrastructure installed at the same time as the delivery of the vehicles.

 

I agree with the general sentiment though that EVs are still awful for efficiency. Travel has to switch mostly to walking, cycling or public transport (except for the most rural areas) if it is to remain sustainable. Most of Europe already is on the way there. North America, on the other hand, isn't, and until a majority there realise that they have no fundamental right to drive and providing infrastructure for other modes is not a dangerous communist policy, EVs will remain the least worst option.

 

This isn't really relevant to the postal system, which will still require vehicles no matter what z though

Most European homes can charge cars at almost 3,7kW on standard 16A 230V outlets. The issue is not cost of installing charging station. It's being able to even install one. People live in homes with detached parking spaces. Good luck charging EV's with that in any meaningful way. That's the main problem. It's entirely a non-issue with petrol cars where you just casually drop in any petrol station for 5 minutes and you're good for next 600 kilometers.

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What gas engine are they using? 

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3 hours ago, Mling said:

Is that image really what they will look like? They look hilarious! 

In my city postage is delivered by electric three wheeler bikes. They drive down the footpath and the road. They are kind of like the old gyro pizza delivery bikes but modern and electric. I wonder why USPS isnt using electric bikes. Maybe everything in USA really is bigger including mail envelopes that you need a truck to service a neighborhood. 

The trucks generally service a wide area. Like they pretty much load it up and drive around for hours after. Multiple neighborhoods 

 

and yeah, they also have to be able to deliver bigger things.  

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16 hours ago, poochyena said:

Absolutely ridiculous that they chose not to make 90%+ of them electric as they are the PERFECT candidates for electric vehicles. Its almost entirely city stop and go mileage, which electric vehicles excellent at and gas cars do terribly at. They have fixed routes so they know exactly how much range is needed; no unexpected 300+ miles trips. The average electric car now can do 200+ miles per change which is plenty for the vast majority of usps routes.

This is just shameful that they would choose to continue to use terribly polluting vehicles that is destroying the enviroment and leads to both noise and air pollution when they could use an objectively better alternative of an electric vehicle fleet.

Postmaster Dejoy is the single worst thing that has happened to the usps and is completely ruining it.

I suspect it depends on a particular route.  

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10 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Going to make this very, very simple for you. It's high school physics. You ready?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/SWOD0F4KHz3F2f7tZfWsyzJ3NwiHtcbxTK4mTmnLpUTxeMguH0uvaczTIR5pScA_T_TOjB34FVJKFXKFU5g-fXK8tTMlEqHudSvYX2hzrZt8NWNLh9WH3H_0V5pW-Kej7CAhWHL7ZwMGef8KLLzKzSrGMstFOEL2HXoY1OOStrMNnLkPQJaIM4jFpmCFBXW7347g3IoJtXvBfPWs

that link doesn't work

 

7 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm sure they bought the percentages of vehicles they needed, they should know...

thats the problem. They, as a business, don't need electric vehicles. We, as people, do, as it will be better for our health. They are trying to run usps as a for profit business rather than a government service, and thats the issue.

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1 minute ago, poochyena said:

that link doesn't work

 

thats the problem. They, as a business, don't need electric vehicles. We, as people, do, as it will be better for our health. They are trying to run usps as a for profit business rather than a government service, and thats the issue.

The USPS' impact on air quality even with the current LLVs they've had for decades is very low in the entire scheme of things. The amount of due-diligence they did when selecting the percentage of internal combustion engines VS electric they wanted was probably staggering, if they realized the electric infrastructure wasn't up to par with charging needs for a mostly electric fleet, they're not going to jump into that. There's also range. Even if an unladen Model 3 will go 300 miles non-stop on a highway, a van carrying a heavy load stopping all the time is likely not getting anywhere near that.

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USPS uses different type of vehicles for their delivery services, so I'm assuming these will just replace the oldest fleet that have, and not everything.

Here is a pic of the trucks they used (in toy form), have seen the smallest one irl.

 

Spoiler

uspstrucks.thumb.jpg.ba874156a5b26d115f913cb8779fb927.jpg

 

 

They even use vans from whatever car maker they want to get it from, like this one

 

Spoiler

uspsvan.thumb.jpg.e262387564576072e956c64e02440716.jpg

 

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21 minutes ago, poochyena said:

that link doesn't work

I'm pretty sure he basically wants you to look up static and kinetic friction?
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/ben_townsend/staticandkineticfriction.htm
Something you learn in Highschool Physics (And chemistry to an extent) is pretty much changing anything's state requires more energy then maintaining a state, whether thats motion, electrical charge, phase of matter, exc.

Just some examples in electronics: Motors often have a higher starting voltage. Your PC fan might not spin at 4V remaining motionless, but once you hit 4.3V it starts spinning.Then you can find you can reduce the voltage back down to 4V, and the fan will remain spinning. - apparently this is why desk fans have their speed settings like "Off -> High -> Medium -> Low".

Another example, this voltage regulator: https://www.pololu.com/product/2564

"The input voltage, VIN, must be at least 0.5 V for the regulator to turn on. However, once the regulator is on, the input voltage can drop as low as 0.3 V and the 5 V output voltage will be maintained on VOUT."

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5 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

What gas engine are they using? 

they haven't said

 

1 hour ago, NumLock21 said:

USPS uses different type of vehicles for their delivery services, so I'm assuming these will just replace the oldest fleet that have, and not everything.

Here is a pic of the trucks they used (in toy form), have seen the smallest one irl

you do realize 3 are of the exact same model.

these are to replace Grumman LLV and some vans

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2 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

The USPS' impact on air quality even with the current LLVs they've had for decades is very low in the entire scheme of things.

165,000 vehicles is absolutely significant when they are being driven even single day for many hours

 

2 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

There's also range. Even if an unladen Model 3 will go 300 miles non-stop on a highway, a van carrying a heavy load stopping all the time is likely not getting anywhere near that.

omg that wasn't the point. So frustrating.
The point is if we have EVs that can go 300 miles, then we can absolutely have usps EVs that have to travel significantly less miles.

2 hours ago, DeScruff said:

m pretty sure he basically wants you to look up static and kinetic friction?
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/ben_townsend/staticandkineticfriction.htm
Something you learn in Highschool Physics (And chemistry to an extent) is pretty much changing anything's state requires more energy then maintaining a state, whether thats motion, electrical charge, phase of matter, exc.

I don't think you are following the conversation. I'm asking for source to this specific claim in regards to EVs: "Accelerating a vehicle from a stop is significantly less efficient than staying at a set speed (say, 50 mph for EPA enjoyment). Guess what a USPS vehicle does? Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop."

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1 minute ago, poochyena said:

 don't think you are following the conversation. I'm asking for source to this specific claim in regards to EVs: "Accelerating a vehicle from a stop is significantly less efficient than staying at a set speed (say, 50 mph for EPA enjoyment). Guess what a USPS vehicle does? Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop."

And I just explained the physics on why "start stop start stop" is less efficient vs constant motion.
EVs are not magical physics altering devices.

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6 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

And I just explained the physics on why "start stop start stop" is less efficient vs constant motion.
EVs are not magical physics altering devices.

they aren't but they are a lot more efficient at energy usage than a gas car, last I checked a car doesn't gain gas as it slows down/

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On 2/26/2021 at 12:19 PM, GDRRiley said:

right and they've publicly stated most routes are under a 100 and all are under 180

Just wanted to point out that while routes may be well within the range of an electric car these are not electric cars. They'll be carrying a lot of cargo and stopping and starting very very very frequently. Bodies at rest wish to remain at rest or something and so imagine stopping and starting your electric car every 50-100 feet for 85 of those 100 miles and the effect that would have on range. That's why the 2.5L 'iron duke' in the current LLV gets such low gas mileage most places, it's not super efficient to begin with but idling,  starting off for a few dozen feet, then stopping again is pretty bad. More communities are being built with neighborhood mail boxes but that doesn't accommodate larger packages so that improvement has been kind of quickly rendered obsolete.

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30 minutes ago, poochyena said:

165,000 vehicles is absolutely significant when they are being driven even single day for many hours

 

omg that wasn't the point. So frustrating.
The point is if we have EVs that can go 300 miles, then we can absolutely have usps EVs that have to travel significantly less miles.

I don't think you are following the conversation. I'm asking for source to this specific claim in regards to EVs: "Accelerating a vehicle from a stop is significantly less efficient than staying at a set speed (say, 50 mph for EPA enjoyment). Guess what a USPS vehicle does? Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop."

You seem to be frustrated that EVs don’t break the laws of physics. Mail delivery vehicles travel at slow speeds around city centers and neighborhoods, and they barely go fast enough for regenerative braking to do much. 

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22 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Oh really? It's that easy? So assuming you can do at least one post office a day....all the post offices would be done in.....31,000 years? Even if the post office could convert 20 post offices per day, that's still 4 years to convert them all. 20 a day is frankly an optimistic number for government contractors. 

 

22 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

No, I am being serious. At your claimed rate of doing 1 post office per day it would take 31,000 years to do all post offices. I made a generous scenario of 20 post offices per day that brought the number down to just over 4 years, but the reality is doing 10 post offices a day would be incredible and doing them all in a day would be even more incredible. 

Am I stupid or is this math wrong?

20 post offices/day * 365 days/year * 4 years = 29200 post offices

29200 post offices / 1 post office/day / 365 days/year = 80 years

 

OR

 

1 post office/day * 365 days/year * 31000 years = 11315000 post offices

11315000 post offices / 20 post offices/day / 365 days/year = 1550 years

 

So do we have 29200 post offices or 11315000 post offices?

I'm going to take the smaller figure since if you use 11315000 post offices as the correct number, both rates will take over 1000 years to implement.

If we use 29200 post offices in the US, then use the rates of 1 per day and 20 per day, we get:

 

29200 post offices / 1 post office/day / 365 days/year = 80 years

29200 post offices / 20 post offices/day / 365 day/year = 4 years

 

So yes, doing just 1 post office per day would take 80 years to do every single office in the US, which is unreasonably long, but it is not 31000 years long. In fact, if you do 5 post offices per day, which seems like something much more reasonable than 10 or 20 offices per day, you could accomplish the task in 16 years, which is long, but plenty reasonable, imo, for long term infrastructure development used for decades to come, something the US desperately needs. 

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55 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

they aren't but they are a lot more efficient at energy usage than a gas car, last I checked a car doesn't gain gas as it slows down/

Correct. Electric cars are significantly better then gas cars. But don't for a second think regenerative breaking means that constant motion and start stop are the same. Here from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/blog/magic-tesla-roadster-regenerative-braking

Regenerative breaking gains a fair bit back. But it ain't 1 to 1. They claim a 80% Battery to wheel efficiency. So at best you achieve 64% energy efficiency. (80% power lost going back to the battery, 80% going from the battery to the wheel) - Then there are of course other factors that they do brush over.

I'm not arguing Gas = better.
No, Im fairly sure electric is better suited for this usecase.

Just simply that 300 mile range (est) of a Tesla car is for a different use case, much like how two people can get completely different battery lives out of the same laptop depending on what applications they are using.
Since we don't have data of the kinda power draw requirements the average mail truck has, and we don't have a battery size you cannot claim it has a 300 mile range.

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24 minutes ago, thechinchinsong said:

 

Am I stupid or is this math wrong?

20 post offices/day * 365 days/year * 4 years = 29200 post offices

29200 post offices / 1 post office/day / 365 days/year = 80 years

 

OR

 

1 post office/day * 365 days/year * 31000 years = 11315000 post offices

11315000 post offices / 20 post offices/day / 365 days/year = 1550 years

 

So do we have 29200 post offices or 11315000 post offices?

I'm going to take the smaller figure since if you use 11315000 post offices as the correct number, both rates will take over 1000 years to implement.

If we use 29200 post offices in the US, then use the rates of 1 per day and 20 per day, we get:

 

29200 post offices / 1 post office/day / 365 days/year = 80 years

29200 post offices / 20 post offices/day / 365 day/year = 4 years

 

So yes, doing just 1 post office per day would take 80 years to do every single office in the US, which is unreasonably long, but it is not 31000 years long. In fact, if you do 5 post offices per day, which seems like something much more reasonable than 10 or 20 offices per day, you could accomplish the task in 16 years, which is long, but plenty reasonable, imo, for long term infrastructure development used for decades to come, something the US desperately needs. 

7 days a week vs 5 days a week?  Maybe no one is right.  Makes me wonder what the post office thinks.   Different postal routes happen in radically different places and will have wildly different requirements.  The way I’m getting 10% is they divided them up into types of routes, and will probably use the electric vehicles to test costs.  If the costs are lower for electric they will probably become electric. Remember these are fleet vehicles so every one of them has parts that are interchangeable with another.  Wouldn’t be surprised if the cost of conversion is close to a wash.  The gas vehicle parts can be set aside for use in other gas vehicles.  Meanwhile battery tech is advancing quickly. Why commit to a system that very well could be obsolete before it is even delivered? Gas engine tech is moving much slower.  Another thing to think about is gasoline conversion to propane is trivial, and to hydrogen isn’t a heckuva lot harder.  Complaining about percentage efficiency isn’t something that gasoline engine backers normally do for a pretty simple reason:  the theoretical max for a gasoline 4stroke piston engine is 50%.  Way lower than electrical, and they don’t normally make even that.  There was a 40% some years ago that was widely lauded.

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2 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

Just simply that 300 mile range of a Tesla car is for a different use case, much like how two people can get completely different battery lives out of the same laptop depending on what applications they are using.

Since we don't have data of the kinda power draw requirements the average mail truck has, and we don't have a battery size you cannot claim it has a 300 mile range.

we have some info for buses, so let me stick that in here.

some USPS trucks like in my area probably do a very similar driving pattern at 1/4 to 1 mile a time because the postal carries get out and walk the houses on a street.

Quote

The Saf-T-Liner C2 Jouley uses a 226kWh battery to achieve a range of up to 135 miles (217km), with up to 81 passengers aboard.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/02/maryland-school-district-places-largest-ever-order-for-electric-buses/

 

 

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25 minutes ago, thechinchinsong said:

 

why are people arguing about how long it will take to put in chargers? I'd expect they'd have 500-1000 contracted teams doing it meaning a few months

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1 hour ago, DeScruff said:

And I just explained the physics on why "start stop start stop" is less efficient vs constant motion.

and why did you do that? Thats not the claim i'm asking source on.

 

1 hour ago, atxcyclist said:

Mail delivery vehicles travel at slow speeds around city centers and neighborhoods, and they barely go fast enough for regenerative braking to do much. 

and I'd like a source that shows the first part significantly reduces range and that the 2nd part is true.

24 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

why are people arguing about how long it will take to put in chargers? I'd expect they'd have 500-1000 contracted teams doing it meaning a few months

because they aren't being serious. No one seriously believes that if charging stations were to be installed, that only a few locations would be worked on per day.

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43 minutes ago, poochyena said:

and why did you do that? Thats not the claim i'm asking source on.

O RLY?

17 hours ago, poochyena said:
19 hours ago, PlayStation 2 said:

Having to constantly dig into the torque range versus being able to consistently (or even somewhat consistently) ride at a steady pace murders any gains in range and overall efficiency. 300 miles is 300 miles, but 300 miles means nothing without context in how a car is driven.

source that on that? I was under the impression it doesn't matter much for electric cars..

 

16 hours ago, poochyena said:

 

17 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Accelerating a vehicle from a stop is significantly less efficient than staying at a set speed (say, 50 mph for EPA enjoyment). Guess what a USPS vehicle does? Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop.

again, source?


So what are you asking for the source on then?
Cause everyone is telling you "Start stop start stop" vs constant movement is less efficient and you ask "SOURCE!?"
I explain the physics on why you need more energy to start from 0mph (Which a mail truck does... constantly)- "Thats not the claim i'm asking source on!"

So what are you asking the source on? That a mail truck starts and stops every couple of feet? Or why "Start stop" is not as efficient as constant running?
 

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53 minutes ago, poochyena said:

and why did you do that? Thats not the claim i'm asking source on.

 

and I'd like a source that shows the first part significantly reduces range and that the 2nd part is true.

because they aren't being serious. No one seriously believes that if charging stations were to be installed, that only a few locations would be worked on per day.

Sources are Isaac Newton and Nikola Tesla.

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23 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

O RLY?

 


So what are you asking for the source on then?
Cause everyone is telling you "Start stop start stop" vs constant movement is less efficient and you ask "SOURCE!?"
I explain the physics on why you need more energy to start from 0mph (Which a mail truck does... constantly)- "Thats not the claim i'm asking source on!"

So what are you asking the source on? That a mail truck starts and stops every couple of feet? Or why "Start stop" is not as efficient as constant running?
 

Let me try and clarify:

 

If you're running a gasoline car in stop and go traffic, like a mail truck, it gets horrible efficiency. And when you slow down, all you're doing is wearing down the brakes.

 

In an electric car, you also lose efficiency from start/stop. But you gain charge with regenerative braking. No, the regenerative braking doesn't fully make up for the starting again, but it does make up for a significant portion.

 

Someone said 64% above. So let's assume that every time they slow down, they regain 64% of that energy.

 

I think people are just making a lot of assumptions, and he's simply asking for proof.

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