Nvidia Mining GPU CMP HX: The state of mining from 2 perspectives and a meme no one asked for!

[XXX_BlueFire_XXX]

Alright so bit of an essay rant here, though wanted to share my thoughts with the community.

 

So we'll start with the unpopular opinion I hold, which will probably get me a lot of hate, though I understand the frustration. I think Linus has been a bit harsh on the mining community. Now before you run down to the comments and tell me to jump out my apartment window, hear me out. Consider the community consists of a very diverse group of people. I think somehow we've all been branded as people who have 50+ GPUs, are made of money, care nothing for the environment, and have no empathy for the gaming community. I think that if people headed over to the communities of the smaller coins and even some of the larger ones, you'd see that a lot of us are actually pretty small and many get into mining from an interest in computer hardware. In my case, that's exactly what happened. I discovered a passion for computer hardware / software (especially for weird or old hardware / software) during my summer internship. Mining was my first chance to build a PC on my own for something and seeing it all come alive for the first time was such a great feeling. It's even inspired me to learn linux and delve deeper into how computers work. Additionally, I can thank this wonderful community for inspiring me and helping me. LTT and LMG in general, I appreciate you so much for keeping your content so personable and fun even though you've grown so big! Speaking of big, check out the package on Linus in that underwear 3-pack, only $49.99, lttstore.com! Anyways back to the topic. Now that all being said, I think the main problem with the mining community stems from these mega farms which buy 100+ GPUs at a time. Clearly if you can buy that many then money is certainly not any kind of an issue. The motivation is purely to make a massive profit as fast as possible with disregard for any sort of consequence or conscious thought. There is no incentive for them to preserve the cards because who cares if you're making back the cost of a single card in half a day or less of mining. So they use a massive amount of power, produce a large amount of e-waste, and have no regard for the community, that goes for both the mining or gaming community. I say that because, why should they give a damn about the project behind a coin or what it's intended goal was when you make boat loads of money on its back. So I understand the animosity people have towards these people, I share it because I myself am trying to get a 3070 for my flight sim to run above 12 fps in downtown San Francisco lol and they fundamentally are against what cryptocurrency is suppose to be (small groups of people working together to support a massive network). The main problem that hits home with me is that people brand a lot of us under this umbrella, including I feel LTT, which makes me sad sometimes because I look up to y'all and in other communities has gotten me shunned for even mentioning that I mine. I understand because this perspective is perpetuated and it's a lot easier to put everyone in a single box rather than considering different perspectives. I'd like to share my story now.

 

So I really believe in the message behind crypto. It removes the need for a governing body to regulate because it can be built into the protocol, preventing fraud and takes the power out of large holders of money without causing chaos because the system is supported by a vast amount of individuals working together. Additionally, there are so many projects to build off of it such as making international transfers as easy as 1 click, representing tangible objects, and creating novel ideas such as a "no loss lottery". Now that's not to say it doesn't have it's issues. It's difficult for a protocol to have much empathy, such as giving those with extenuating circumstances any consideration. There are a lot more, though I'm trying to show my passion for this in contrast to big boi McGee with 200 GPUs. Anyways so after some research, I decided I would mine a smaller proof of work coin called ravencoin since it sought to fix some of the problems with bitcoin, it had a nice community, and I could make a profit margin while supporting the project. Now going into this, I wanted to minimize cost and waste. I decided that I would look for cards sold used. Now not fully understanding how messed up the GPU market was I thought that would be easy and cost effective, though soon found out 10 series cards were selling at sometimes 2X their original MSRP. EVEN THE 900 SERIES IS MAKING A COMEBACK lol. So eventually I got a 3 10 series cards locally that people were selling because they were upgrading. Actually felt great because most reasonably priced, used cards are instantly bought up and scalped on eBay. At least mine would go to good use for end of life and additionally, they wouldn't be used to rip off someone less knowledgeable on GPUs. I undervolt these cards and make sure they are super well cooled so that they last as long as possible, because like I said, I have both a personal and financial incentive to preserve them and cut my electricity. Overall the whole thing make me happy because I support a project I believe in and have an extra 200 - 300 to spend at the end of the month on something I enjoy if I so choose. As a college student with low income, that's so valuable to me. What I'm trying to illustrate as that the majority of miners are a lot smaller and we try to use older cheaper cards. Maybe some don't care as much about the waste as me, though I try to do my part. Though these mega farms which buy up the supply and give scalpers a market just make me extremely angry.

 

So I've only been talking about mining so far though I also consider myself a gamer. I play SCII, SWBFII, GTA V, some retro titles, and actually utilize MSFS 2020 / P3Dv4 to support my flight training. I got into LTT a while ago when I was trying to learn how to optimize my system for my flight sim back in the FSX days since some sceneries + planes could bring the computer to its knees. Didn't help that it could only take advantage of a 32 bits at the time. I was still in HS at the time. Tho anyways, I completely understand why people are angry. I drive to Microcenter every single Monday when the doors open in hopes of getting a 3070 to make the new MSFS playable while still taking advantage of the stunning new graphics. It's insane that 3070 is pushing $1,200 in some places. I blame this idea of a get rich quick off of crypto. Linus is right when he says that people are going to buy all these cards, and when the next Ethereum crash occurs, people will rapidly sell. Wish people considered that their actions are preventing people from enjoying their modern titles after a long day at work or studying. If miners simply bought older cards in small operations (as crypto was intended to be) then this whole mess could be avoided. I think many of us are aware of this though there is a small minority who don't care. So that's my perspective as both a miner and a gamer. Now onto the meme of the day, the CMP HX!

 

So as a small miner in it for the long haul, whether it goes up or down, these cards actually got me interested initially. Then I saw their statistics and wow, I don't think Linus could've put it better in his video, manufactured e-waste. The only way I would buy these cards is if they were 50 - 75% cheaper compared to the price of an older used GPU from the 10 or 20 series, which I highly doubt they will be because they're "the cutting edge new tech for professional miners". Maybe they'll be able to fool a person who knows absolutely nothing about mining, though these are legitimately terrible value. Their efficiency (hash rate / W) and hash rate in general is comparable and sometimes worse than that of the 10 series cards. For instance, let us consider the big craze around Ethereum. It utilizes the Ethash algorithm. We'll consider the efficiency in MH/s / W to keep it a percentage. A 1080 delivers on average around 43 MH/s with a 180 W TDP, meaning it has a 24% efficiency. Now lets consider the 50HX with 45 MH/s with a 250 W TDP, meaning it has an 18% efficiency. WHAT!!! A ten percent drop in efficiency for a newer product with an amazing 2 extra MH/s. BIG WINS lol. Hopefully the sarcasm comes through. For reference this is the upper mid range GPU of 4. So to summarize, they use more power for less benefit, what a meme. If you're a "professional" (a meme in itself) with tons of GPUs, you'd have to be a fool to consider investing in them. Hence for anyone with a brain, they won't buy them. If you're conscious of the current market you'll continue to buy used 10 series cards and if you don't care about that (which most larger farms don't) you'll continue to eat up the supply of the 30 series cards. For reference the RTX 3060 TI has a 50% efficiency. 50% EFFICIENCY. Not to mention it delivers way higher hash rates in general so what the hell is the point Nvidia. Well we all know the point, it's a giant pr campaign. These may alleviate a negligible portion of demand for the 30 series. How negligible depends entirely on how they are priced. Though I doubt they'll get much traction regardless. They're wasting power, wasting silicon, and adding to the landfill. When a crash happens, people will have even less use for these already useless cards. If I can get the high end one for $50 during the crash that's about the only practical use I could see. Overall there will be a very small resell market to enthusiasts like myself and that's about it. The rest will get "recycled" lol. Nvidia, if you're going to alleviate demand in the short term, at least try making a card which actually has some value to your customer base.

 

Edit: For those who won't read the later comments as to why I utilize TDP I'll state it here as well. TDP gives how much power in terms of heat that the processors will give off under some load. This is directly related to the power consumption, though does not always agree with the actual power draw. For instance my cards draw over their TDP, which makes them less efficient than the numbers stated above. The difference is not significant enough to change my point. I wanted to keep things consistent so I utilized TDP across the board + I was too lazy to walk downstairs and check the power draw at the time lol. Since we don't know the actual power draw under a mining load it's the best we can get at the moment. Based on these raw numbers and some assumptions (TDP most likely given under heavy load, such as in this case mining, conservation of energy dictates that they must draw at least that much power from he wall under said load, and 2nd law of thermodynamics indicates that they have to draw more because realistically no process is 100% efficient), these cards appear heavily inefficient compared to a 30 series and deliver lower hash rates in general. If I were Nvidia and the cards did actually draw less than the TDP, why would I put a TDP for some theoretical load which no one will use it for since it's specifically manufactured for mining? Therefore, I conclude that these must be representative of the power draw under a heavy mining load. All this being said, there remains no incentive to buy. 

 

Congrats if you made it through the whole thing! I put in my soul a bit. Feel free to slam me in the comments. Though I needed to get this all off my chest.

 

TLDR: I'm sad about Linus saying all miners = bad, Linus is packin', I'm a miner and gamer and understand the frustration, the new HX GPUs are the biggest meme I've ever seen come out of a hardware company.

Edited February 25, 2021 by XXX_BlueFire_XXX
TDP reasoning and clarification.

[Kilrah]

13 minutes ago, XXX_BlueFire_XXX said:

If miners simply bought older cards

 

13 minutes ago, XXX_BlueFire_XXX said:

I have both a personal and financial incentive to preserve them and cut my electricity.

That's the point, it makes no sense to buy older cards and get half the output for the same power draw, so everyone wants the newest cards that both mine more worth in a day and with better efficiency.

 

13 minutes ago, XXX_BlueFire_XXX said:

A 1080 delivers on average around 43 MH/s with a 180 W TDP, meaning it has a 24% efficiency. Now lets consider the 50HX with 45 MH/s with a 250 W TDP, meaning it has an 18% efficiency. WHAT!!!

TDP means nothing when mining, the TDP in specs is generic, when mining if you're doing it right you tune your cards for best efficiency and it's usually way lower than the rated TDP.

My 3080 has 350W TDP, 450W when PL is raised and OC'd for FS2020, but when mining It's at 230W with 400KH/J on ethash. You can't judge efficiency from the specs.

[seban]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

 

That's the point, it makes no sense to buy older cards and get half the output for the same power draw, so everyone wants the newest cards that both mine more worth in a day and with better efficiency.

 

TDP means nothing when mining, the TDP in specs is generic, when mining if you're doing it right you tune your cards for best efficiency and it's usually way lower than the rated TDP.

My 3080 has 350W TDP, 450W when PL is raised and OC'd for FS2020, but when mining It's at 230W with 400KH/W on ethash. You can't judge efficiency from the specs.

how in the living hell did you read all of that

[Kilrah]

I'll admit I only skimmed and might have missed stuff...

[seban]

3 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

I'll admit I only skimmed and might have missed stuff...

oh okay, lmao

[boggy77]

the way I see it: if you feel affected by the negative comments towards "miners", it means you subconsciously feel guilty about it in some way or another. maybe you feel you add to the problem of e-waste or maybe you're not on a renewable energy power plan or something.

if you are just passionate about hardware and crypto and are just using a couple of cards to explore this technology and have a hobby, you shouldn't feel affected by the angry comments from gamers towards miners.

I myself use my gpu to mine when i don't game. I do it for fun, for a hobby, to learn about crypto and because my room is cold so the extra 100W from my gtx 1660 helps. I make about $60 a month, so that's not the main purpose for me. So I don't consider myself a miner and I don't feel guilty and I don't feel like the negativity towards miners is targeted towards me. even if I managed to buy another card and mine on both of them I would still not feel guilty, as the main purpose would still be heating my room.

At the moment I buy/build a mining rig with 4+ high end cards that I bough from scalpers to drive at max hashrate to maximise profit, while keeping the windows open to cool the room, that is when I'd start feeling guilty about trying to make money in a non-sustainable way and at the expense of gamers.

[Moonzy]

24 minutes ago, XXX_BlueFire_XXX said:

Now before you run down to the comments and tell me to jump out my apartment window, hear me out.

boy if i had a dollar for every time someone in this community told me to fk off for buying multiple GPUs, i'd still be getting less than what a 3060ti get for a day

you're fine, i put my mining rig in my sig and so far havent got much flak for it

[XXX_BlueFire_XXX]

So I knew inevitably I would make some mistakes and get some flack so some responses that I thought needed some clarification

18 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

TDP means nothing when mining, the TDP in specs is generic, when mining if you're doing it right you tune your cards for best efficiency and it's usually way lower than the rated TDP.

My 3080 has 350W TDP, 450W when PL is raised and OC'd for FS2020, but when mining It's at 230W with 400KH/J on ethash. You can't judge efficiency from the specs.

Reason I utilize TDP as the method is because I have no comparison as to what the cards will actually draw, so to keep it consistent I utilized the reported TDP values across the board. I agree it makes some intense assumptions. My rig is running a 1080, 1070 TI and a 1060. It delivers about 40 MH/s on the KAWPOW algorithm. The entire system draws 650 W of power from the wall consistently whilst mining. Reportedly, the cards utilize around 200, 180, and 170 W respectively. These are relatively similar to the TDP values for said cards. So I thought it would be a relatively good enough comparison considering there isn't much data. I still believe my point will stand, they seem very inefficient and not worth even considering, hence manufactured e-waste.

 

As for buying lower end cards, my situation uniquely allows that I can utilize them at a profit because my rent covers some of the electricity cost. My cost is actually higher than most parts of the U.S. so I would assume the issue would be less elsewhere if you're paying for the whole thing. In the end I don't think mining is intended to compensate income. When cards become more readily available (lol I know) maybe it would make more moral sense to get a newer card to increase efficiency since it's drawing the same amount of power for less result??? Though at the same time lower cards should ideally cost less to purchase. I don't have the solutions in all honesty off the top of my head, more so stating opinions and what I reasoned in my head.

 

25 minutes ago, boggy77 said:

the way I see it: if you feel affected by the negative comments towards "miners", it means you subconsciously feel guilty about it in some way or another. maybe you feel you add to the problem of e-waste or maybe you're not on a renewable energy power plan or something.

I feel guilty in a way because I don't want to contribute to e-waste and wasteful electricity usage. I shouldn't feel affected, though that's the way I see the "miners" being portrayed. In one giant box. In my opinion I felt that LTT kinda perpetuated that. Do I know internally I'm not in that box, yes, though a lot of others put me there, so it's difficult not to feel guilty amongst my friends who are gamers and go after me.

[SFFDesigns]

I do agree that miners are not painted in a fair light. Not everyone buys 15 cards, runs them at max profitability and high temperatures then buys more. 

 

I am (as you are) an avid MSFS player (also partially due to my real-life flight training) and that's why I bought my 3080. However, I'm not always using my computer, and when I don't, I mine on it. Sure I limit it to 192W and only 81 MH due to FE mem temps (don't want junction going to or past 100c), but it's still profitable. 

 

I'm not taking cards from gamers, I'm a gamer who mines when I don't game. I agree that "miners" are all portrayed as people who bought 10 cards or more and are mining on them 24/7, which contributes to e-waste when the cards wear out or are just no longer profitable. Not every person who mines is like that

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

I do agree that miners are not painted in a fair light. Not everyone buys 15 cards, runs them at max profitability and high temperatures then buys more. 

 

I am (as you are) an avid MSFS player (also partially due to my real-life flight training) and that's why I bought my 3080. However, I'm not always using my computer, and when I don't, I mine on it. Sure I limit it to 192W and only 81 MH due to FE mem temps (don't want junction going to or past 100c), but it's still profitable. 

 

I'm not taking cards from gamers, I'm a gamer who mines when I don't game. I agree that "miners" are all portrayed as people who bought 10 cards or more and are mining on them 24/7, which contributes to e-waste when the cards wear out or are just no longer profitable. Not every person who mines is like that

No single gamer has a reason to own more than 4 GPU's. None. If you're into ML (Machine Learning), maybe that changes, and having a rig built for training and not gaming might be of value, and when it's not training, it's mining or powered off.

 

My issue is when people go "oh you're leaving money on the table", no screw that. If I burned out the GPU in my desktop, I would have no GPU at all, and no means of replacing it. It's absolutely foolish to be mining on the single GPU in your desktop system, or any GPU in a laptop.

 

So no, my ire is directed at people who see mining as free money, "capitalism ho!" nonsense, not those who mine in the background while they work on excel documents. If electricity is more than $0.10USD/kwh in your area, you are also paying a premium to mine that others do not.

[linuxChips2600]

8 hours ago, boggy77 said:

the way I see it: if you feel affected by the negative comments towards "miners"

I was gonna say too that I know that I tend to rant when I'm anxious...

[LogicalDrm]

-> Moved to Graphics Cards

[SFFDesigns]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

No single gamer has a reason to own more than 4 GPU's.

No, but gamers who buy one GPU should be allowed to mine with it. If it's profitable for you, why shouldn't you be able to enjoy the benefits. That's my issue with the 3060 situation

 

It definitely isn't free money though, you are right about that. However, I think mining on new GPUs shouldn't be looked down upon generally. There's nothing wrong with a gamer mining on their 3080 while they join video calls or something.

[TheBahrbarian]

59 minutes ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

No, but gamers who buy one GPU should be allowed to mine with it. If it's profitable for you, why shouldn't you be able to enjoy the benefits. That's my issue with the 3060 situation

 

It definitely isn't free money though, you are right about that. However, I think mining on new GPUs shouldn't be looked down upon generally. There's nothing wrong with a gamer mining on their 3080 while they join video calls or something.

I also find it ironic that clearly locking the 3060 down for mining did nothing for stock. I guess in the weeks to come we will see, but based on how bad the launch today was I think it is safe to say that this launch was one of the worst. I was watching a stock stream and only 2 people on the whole stream managed to get a 3060 from the Best Buy and Newegg launches.

[tikker]

14 minutes ago, TheBahrbarian said:

I also find it ironic that clearly locking the 3060 down for mining did nothing for stock.

Even at half hashrate it's still profitable from what I've read and that's all that matters. Profit is profit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TheBahrbarian]

6 minutes ago, tikker said:

Even at half hashrate it's still profitable from what I've read and that's all that matters. Profit is profit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm sure it is, and also it's more than capable of mining alt coins. It was a stupid idea from Nvidia, and only serves to dismantle the used GPU market down the road.

[Steel_Wind]

Well, I read that sophistry.

Now - please go jump out the ;effin window.

P.S. People who are in it for their own personal financial gain without regard to the consequences to others are not members of a "community". They are selfish people interested only in themselves. "Members of the mining community". GTFO of here.

[Mick Naughty]

Not sure where Linus said miners were bad. Where’s the reference so I can watch it again. 

[XXX_BlueFire_XXX]

3 hours ago, Mick Naughty said:

Not sure where Linus said miners were bad. Where’s the reference so I can watch it again. 

Sure. I feel that there are other examples over time as this stock shortage has persisted for almost 6 months, though this is the one that inspired me to share my thoughts on the matter.