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NVIDIA releases CMP lineup and reduces hashing rates on GeForce cards

4 minutes ago, Rym said:

That's why I said they should make a hardware level block against mining on the gaming GPUs that cannot be modded out or bypassed. 

Again, this splits the supply of chips that already can't keep up with demand. Nvidia can't just suddenly snap their fingers and double their fab capacity to produce mining-specific GPU's while also continuing to make just as many gaming-specific GPU's. You're just cutting the supply of chips that end up in gaming GPU's to be used by gamers in half. 

 

Also, if crypto mining with GPU's ceases to be profitable tomorrow - which for all we know it could, Ethereum is supposed to switch to proof of stake this year - then all of these mining-specific GPU's are e-waste. 

 

In the long run this benefits nobody except Nvidia, who will continue to rake in cash and get a short-term PR boost from seeming like the "good guys" to consumers who don't really research this or think about it too much. 

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This is actually a disturbing precedent. The full performance of the cards should remain unhindered, no matter what applications are thrown at it. What’s stopping them from eventually requiring a Quadro for full performance in non-gaming tasks. 
 

Even if the market for cards is demolished, I oppose the decision to artificially limit performance in arbitrarily specified tasks. 

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3 minutes ago, Rym said:

That's why I said they should make a hardware level block against mining on the gaming GPUs that cannot be modded out or bypassed. A gaming GPU should not be used for mining, and a mining GPU should not be used for gaming. The two markets are exclusive and should not be available together in one GPU. It creates massive price inflations and long-lasting supply issues.

 

Bad news for miners, great news for gamers and Nvidia.

 

For gamers, because gaming GPUs won't be throttled by both scalpers AND miners.

 

For Nvidia, because mining specific GPUs bring in more profit if gaming GPUs cannot be used for mining.

I doubt a hardware block could be placed without it affecting performance for video rendering or machine learning tasks. I don't like that miners are buying up GPU's but locking down cards is definitely a bad thing to do, I can totally understand someone using the GPU to mine on when they aren't gaming, and Nvidia telling them they can't really sucks.

Also Nvidia splitting mining cards into another segment makes no sense at all when there is already a semiconductor shortage, Nvidia doesn't care what their cards are used for money is money to them.

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8 minutes ago, Middcore said:

In the long run this benefits nobody except Nvidia, who will continue to rake in cash and get a short-term PR boost from seeming like the "good guys" to consumers who don't really research this or think about it too much. 

I guess that's the whole point of those move, since for some reason tons of uninformed people are blaming solely the miners for a shortage crisis in GPUs.

It's not like we're amidst a pandemic with low production of many goods (not to mention the issues with logistics) and demand is really high due to everyone being stuck at home.

 

But still, a move like that will make people shift their blame to miners, since nvidia already "did their part" on the "issue".

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4 hours ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

Exactly. If were to buy my 3060 from BestBuy, Newegg or Microcenter like anyone else, why can't I choose what I do with it?

Counterpoint its nvidias product. Who are you to tell them what drivers to release for it. Why can't they choose what to do with their own products? Are they now forced to modify their products to your desires now? If that were the case then raytracing wouldn't be a thing. Guess what you don't have to buy their products so if they choose to gimp mining performance then that has nothing to do with you.

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56 minutes ago, Middcore said:

A PR stunt to make it look like Nvidia cares about the plight of gamers. Nothing more.

 

And while I have no particular sympathy for miners, if this actually did anything it would set a troubling precedent about billion-dollar tech companies trying to impose their will about what paying customers can do with their products. 

 

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Nope, nope nope nope.

Terrible decision and I think anyone cheering this on is quite frankly stupid. I am not a miner and I couldn't care less about them. What I am against is the idea that we should be cheering on companies that with software cripple and try to control what we as consumers can and should do with the hardware we have bought.

 

This is like if Tesla sent out an update that made it so that their cars were only able to drive on certain roads and at certain speeds, and then people cheered it on because "now Tesla drivers won't be able to drive on my private road anymore" or "now Tesla drivers can't drive over 50 mph on this 60 mhp road because I think 60 is too high despite the law saying it is legal".

I think the point behind this is that if there is going to be limited stocks, nVidia wants to sell it to the people they care about more.  It would be different if they released drivers after the fact that nerfed performance, but on an unreleased product I don't care as much.

 

It's their way of forcing the market towards gamers...since they can't really stop businesses from mass selling to miners.  It also sets a distinction between consumer grade vs work grade computing.  It is like someone wanting to buy out DisneyWorld for a few days (and Disney World refusing citing that they want the parks open to customers...even if they wold make more money buying out)  Ultimately, I don't have an issue with this; and am glad.

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4 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

I think the point behind this is that if there is going to be limited stocks, nVidia wants to sell it to the people they care about more.

First of all, Nvidia doesn't care about you and neither does any other multi-billion-dollar tech company, but they employ people whose entire job is to create the illusion that they do. They come up with moves like this, and some of the replies here are proof that sometimes their BS actually works.

 

But even if Nvidia actually did want more cards to be available for gamers, this would be a completely ass-backwards way to achieve that goal. All this will do is increase demand for the gaming GPU's by both gamers and miners, because the miners won't want the gimped loser suckface CMP cards that are bad at actually mining. At the same time it will make the gaming GPU's more scarce because some portion of the fab output is now going to the loser suckface CMP cards (although it wouldn't surprise me if Nvidia only makes like 5 to say they did since this is all a PR move anyway). 

 

Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see prices of the Nvidia gaming GPU's actually go up even more after this. 

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3 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Counterpoint its nvidias product. Who are you to tell them what drivers to release for it. Why can't they choose what to do with their own products? Are they now forced to modify their products to your desires now? If that were the case then raytracing wouldn't be a thing. Guess what you don't have to buy their products so if they choose to gimp mining performance then that has nothing to do with you.

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that it's a software limitation, not a hardware one. If they effectively had a hardware difference that made mining useless, then I'd be okay with it since it'd probably reflect on prices too.

 

But gimping a product artificially is wrong IMO, and you can see tons of people complaining about it not only when it comes to mining, as you can see in the people complaining about the difference that used to exist in quadro drivers, or the artificial nvenc limit.

 

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I think the point behind this is that if there is going to be limited stocks, nVidia wants to sell it to the people they care about more.

The market that they clearly care about more is the HPC and DC one, not gamers or miners lol

 

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

distinction between consumer grade vs work grade computing

That used to be the difference between Quadros/Telas and GeForce cards, but in the current gen it seems that they are not imposing it so hard anymore.

It basically goes like so: "are you an individual and want a gpu to do whatever you want? sure, pick any of those. Are you a company? Then follow our TOS and buy a RTX A40 or A6000".

 

There are still some dumb limitations, but they're slowly forgoing of those.

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21 minutes ago, Middcore said:

Again, this splits the supply of chips that already can't keep up with demand. Nvidia can't just suddenly snap their fingers and double their fab capacity to produce mining-specific GPU's while also continuing to make just as many gaming-specific GPU's.

See my earlier posts where, to me, it is looking more like that the lower three of the 4 mining cards will be Turing, not Ampere. Turing is/was made on 12nm TSMC process, so doesn't impact Samsung 8nm at all. It is incremental production.

 

The one remaining Ampere model will probably be offered as a premium product in that space although we wont know until we get pricing indication. Given it is not going to be a general sale product that might not be so quick or easy to come by, but some miner somewhere will probably disclose it at some point.

 

21 minutes ago, Middcore said:

Also, if crypto mining with GPU's ceases to be profitable tomorrow - which for all we know it could, Ethereum is supposed to switch to proof of stake this year - then all of these mining-specific GPU's are e-waste. 

There are still other compute uses that could re-use them. I know many people who were looking forward to the original mining bubble to burst in the hopes the used market would be flooded with cheap GPUs. That never happened.

 

12 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I doubt a hardware block could be placed without it affecting performance for video rendering or machine learning tasks. I don't like that miners are buying up GPU's but locking down cards is definitely a bad thing to do, I can totally understand someone using the GPU to mine on when they aren't gaming, and Nvidia telling them they can't really sucks.

We don't know exactly what they're doing, but it seems like they're targeting a particular part of the Ethereum algorithm. It needs to be specific enough to pick that up and not affect other software, while broad enough to continue working even if miners try to code around it.

 

12 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Also Nvidia splitting mining cards into another segment makes no sense at all when there is already a semiconductor shortage

See my reply above.

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8 minutes ago, porina said:

See my earlier posts where, to me, it is looking more like that the lower three of the 4 mining cards will be Turing, not Ampere. Turing is/was made on 12nm TSMC process, so doesn't impact Samsung 8nm at all. It is incremental production.

 

So why would miners buy these cards that are inferior in productivity to the Ampere cards they can already buy?

 

If Nvidia really "cared about gamers" like they want you to believe, they could devote this surplus 12nm output to bringing Turing gaming cards back (all of the Turing cards, and at a lower price point, not just the 2060, and at a lower price point), and many gamers would be more than happy to have them, given that people are buying Turing cards for more than their original MSRP from 2 years ago in the secondhand market right now. 

 

Edit: Don't take it from me, take it from an actual miner right here on the forum - miners are laughing at this crap. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Middcore said:

First of all, Nvidia doesn't care about you and neither does any other multi-billion-dollar tech company, but they employ people whose entire job is to create the illusion that they do. They come up with moves like this, and some of the replies here are proof that sometimes their BS actually works.

 

But even if Nvidia actually did want more cards to be available for gamers, this would be a completely ass-backwards way to achieve that goal. All this will do is increase demand for the gaming GPU's by both gamers and miners, because the miners won't want the gimped loser suckface CMP cards that are bad at actually mining. At the same time it will make the gaming GPU's more scarce because some portion of the fab output is now going to the loser suckface CMP cards (although it wouldn't surprise me if Nvidia only makes like 5 to say they did since this is all a PR move anyway). 

 

Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see prices of the Nvidia gaming GPU's actually go up even more after this. 

That assumes that the chips they are using will actually take up the same amount of production line.  Let's say they get the chips from ones that don't quite meet the specs or have flaws in the graphics areas (not important to mining).  Instead of scrapping those chips, they could recycle them into CMP's.  Not saying that this is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's partially the case.

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7 minutes ago, Middcore said:

So why would miners buy these cards that are inferior in productivity to the Ampere cards they can already buy?

What makes you think they're "inferior in productivity"? Do not take the listed specs at face value, that's just the general specs as shipped and they will be tuned by the miner for actual use, just like with "gaming" GPUs.

 

Also, cards they can already buy? Some might get some, but the shortage affects miners as much as gamers. There is a need all round.

 

7 minutes ago, Middcore said:

If Nvidia really "cared about gamers" like they want you to believe, they could devote this surplus 12nm output to bringing Turing gaming cards back (all of the Turing cards, and at a lower price point, not just the 2060, and at a lower price point), and many gamers would be more than happy to have them, given that people are buying Turing cards for more than their original MSRP from 2 years ago in the secondhand market right now. 

I'd guess nvidia thinks this is a short term thing, so it is right to only provide limited production to help ride it out. Mining cards are simpler to produce and support, so they'll want to focus their energy into making current and future Ampere cards more gamer friendly. If their software feature holds out, expect to see this on more future gaming cards.

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10 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

That assumes that the chips they are using will actually take up the same amount of production line.  Let's say they get the chips from ones that don't quite meet the specs or have flaws in the graphics areas (not important to mining).  Instead of scrapping those chips, they could recycle them into CMP's.  Not saying that this is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's partially the case.

That's how a 3070 turns into a 3060ti already tho

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I'm just going to wait for ex mining GPU to hit the second hand market. At the end of the day, I've got 2 friends with ex mining RX 580 that work reliably and were in better condition than my second hand non-mining semi-reference GTX 1070.

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They need to put the anti-mining code in the card firmware quietly so miners just think the cards are crap from mining. But to make that work, they would have needed to do that with all 30xx cards from day one.

 

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1 hour ago, Vorg said:

They need to put the anti-mining code in the card firmware quietly so miners just think the cards are crap from mining. But to make that work, they would have needed to do that with all 30xx cards from day one.

 

I think you might be underestimating how quickly that would be discovered.

 

Also, "quietly" won't garner goodwill from gamers. When there is enough supply of GPUs, Nvidia hopes that gamers remember "good guy" Nvidia and will purchase their GPUs.

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Yay, now home users cant use their GPU to mine and game at the same time

 

While big mining farms will probably bypass this within an hour or so

 

Edit:

So when the 3060 releases and it's still out of stock, and miners are no longer to be blamed, gamers are gonna yell at Nvidia for the supply issues now, well played Nvidia.

 

Or maybe they'll play the "buh they haxed the drivers!!!" card? 🤔

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11 hours ago, Vorg said:

They need to put the anti-mining code in the card firmware quietly so miners just think the cards are crap from mining. But to make that work, they would have needed to do that with all 30xx cards from day one.

 

and now lets change a few things in your sentence

 

 

They need to put the anti-gaming code in the card firmware quietly so gamers just think the cards are crap for gaming. But to make that work, they would have needed to do that with all 30xx cards from day one.

 

or for something a bit more "normal"

 

They need to put the anti-rendering code in the card firmware quietly so Editors/content creators/3d modelers just think the cards are crap for video editing/modeling. But to make that work, they would have needed to do that with all 30xx cards from day one.

 

A GPU is a GPU, it should not be up to the manufacturer to decide what you should or shouldn't do with it. I get listening to your customers, but when your customers are this entitled, i think there is a line to be drawn.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

If this in any way affects F@H and BOINC then pitchforks and torches shall be required.

How would you know what to expect if it's that way out of the box though 🤔

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Just now, Moonzy said:

How would you know what to expect if it's that way out of the box though 🤔

Pretty easily, performance estimations for these workloads isn't very hard when we have data from previous generations and current generation cards. The degree they are saying the are going to limit the hash rate if it were to apply to these you'd know very easily, the performance would be that much lower.

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3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Pretty easily, performance estimations for these workloads isn't very hard when we have data from previous generations and current generation cards. The degree they are saying the are going to limit the hash rate if it were to apply to these you'd know very easily, the performance would be that much lower.

Or just use the hacked drivers and firmware that miners will eventually have

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Products I like:

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Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer: shit tier quality products, shit tier customer service thus far, they "tried" to solve my issue but they arent really doing anything but delaying and delaying. (on-going case since July)

Gigabyte: horrible customer service (gigabyte had literally 0 customer service, asked me to go to retailer with NO WAY to email them about a question) but at least they fixed my shit in ONE MONTH (would probably take me 1 hour to fix if they let me email them)

XiaoMi Phones: built like a tank but the software is buggy as all hell

Seagate HDD: had too many dead seagate drives

Kingston SSD: 300V controller swap thingy

Razer (except their mouse)

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

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2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Or just use the hacked drivers and firmware that miners will eventually have

-taps brain-

See couple posts above, if even possible it would be a right pain in the ass and then you might well affect gaming. Unless you only want to do that it's not really a viable option, not when Nvidia will most likely be checking if the firmware on the card is signed and refuse to install official GeForce drivers. Swapping firmware would just get annoying, even with a dual BIOS card.

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20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

See couple posts above, if even possible it would be a right pain in the ass and then you might well affect gaming. Unless you only want to do that it's not really a viable option, not when Nvidia will most likely be checking if the firmware on the card is signed and refuse to install official GeForce drivers. Swapping firmware would just get annoying, even with a dual BIOS card.

Yeap, Nvidia cards didn't need firmware update, but now that they implement this, idk what to expect

 

I guess the re-use, reduce and recycle gets thrown out the window this time, if mining GPU can't be re-used after they're not profitable

 

I really can't see anyone except gamers benefiting from this, and even then, how much they benefit from is questionable

For non-mining gamers, they might be able to get their GPUs, depending on how fast the drivers and firmware is broken (I suspect within a week, judging by the game cracking community)

For everyone else, they lose the ability to mine and potentially gets nerfed in other aspects as well

As for the used GPU market, the mining cards will be e-waste when they're not profitable any longer so ggwp

And Nvidia will be in hot waters when supply is still insufficient and gamers no longer have miners to blame, as I've mentioned before

 

Edit: I would like to add that Nvidia can't back down now, the backlash would be too great

I'll be watching from the side lines with my buttered popcorn

Inb4 they just slowly forget about a this and move on

 

Feels like Nvidia is kicking themselves quite often recently.

My PCs: Desky | Beddie | Miney | Benchie

Things I need help with: (nothing at the moment)

Spoiler

none atm

I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

Spoiler

Products I like:

Spoiler

Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer: shit tier quality products, shit tier customer service thus far, they "tried" to solve my issue but they arent really doing anything but delaying and delaying. (on-going case since July)

Gigabyte: horrible customer service (gigabyte had literally 0 customer service, asked me to go to retailer with NO WAY to email them about a question) but at least they fixed my shit in ONE MONTH (would probably take me 1 hour to fix if they let me email them)

XiaoMi Phones: built like a tank but the software is buggy as all hell

Seagate HDD: had too many dead seagate drives

Kingston SSD: 300V controller swap thingy

Razer (except their mouse)

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

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