Tesla responses to MCU recall: 5-6 years product lifetime not out of the ordinary

[Heliian]

11 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

in an interview the biggest thing that is an issue is the amount of cash-flow and production flow needed to switch over for some of the models).

 

Musk is a billionaire, how is there cash flow problems?  

[Bombastinator]

33 minutes ago, Bitter said:

But Tesla said it was unpossible to use more memory, but here's these people just slapping a 16GB chip right on there and flashing the original contents back onto it, not even changing the BIOS or anything, and 'it just works' with the Tegra CPU!? Astounding discovery, someone should let Tesla know that they were not in fact ever constrained and could in fact produce replacement units with more memory. Are the replacement units even coming with more memory or are they going to just fail again in 5-6 years or less?

 

What I can't fathom is why they're dumping such massive amounts of data to the same memory that's needed for vehicle functions. Dump that on a separate chip maybe? Maybe use a DRAM buffer and flush to disc only what you need to keep? I'm sure there's a lot of better ways they could have done this.

There are various definitions of impossible.  Theoretically impossible and practically impossible are different things but they’re both “impossible”.

 

As to the better way, you could very well be right.  One is definitely needed.  Average life of a car hasn’t been 5 years in a very long time.  I’m driving a 2008. 

[Bombastinator]

37 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It doesn't have to be stainless steel. It just has to be done right. We had Hyundai Accent and when we sold it at age of 19, it still had the original exhaust. Only thing we replaced once was a gasket between separate exhaust parts because it just rotted away. And we have winters and fuck ton of salt on roads every year. I have no clue how they made it, but it was insanely durable.

Hyundai wasn’t even a car company when they stopped doing non stainless mufflers, so my suspicion is stainless. And a gasket let go anyway.  Should have been silicone.

[James Evens]

21 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The 88% is the number of Tesla's that have received the OTA update to mitigate the wear...not 88% of failed units.

Fixed it including the one. If you find more let me know.

 

This thing is definitely amid to prevent liability but saying the main control element is expected to need a replacement over the cars lifetime is noticeable. Especially since they are restrictive regarding repairs meaning they can do it like apple: make the necessary repair/upgrade so expensive that you prefer to buy a new car. Will be interesting if future abo services will include hardware or if it is additional cost on top.

 

I don't own a tesla but from my understanding all the function they name are only accessible through this display. In my opinion a touchscreen is a security risk in the first place as it distracts you more then muscle memory with knobs (as a sidenote every/most car got worse in this regard over the last decade).

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Interestingly, from the limited number cars I've seen/heard of, one or more of the seat-heaters tend to fail before reaching 10 years. My 2013 Chevrolet Cruze has a failed driver's-side seat-heater as well and I don't know how long it has been like that (could definitely have used it this winter!).

 

Admittedly, I can entirely understand such a component failing, since it's in a moving part (the seat), it tends to get a lot of stress from the people plopping their smelly asses on it and just plain heating up to rather hot temperatures and cooling down is a stressful thing as well.

Some parts wear by miles, some parts wear by time, some parts wear by uses.  Just like computers. All parts wear.  It can be really variable though.  My car has ridiculously low miles for its age, but it’s old so weird shit starts breaking anyway.  Things like the batteries in the wheel speed and inflation sensors.  Cars have been designed where all the parts fail at once.  There was a Japanese company that did that for a while.  Built each part to meet a minimum lifetime.   Ironically they get bad repair ratings for that.   “Goes to 100k and falls apart”. Was a Suzuki(?)  thing for a while iirc. Not sure.  An ”S” comes to mind but it might have been a model name.

[spartaman64]

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

So did you know the only way to change the windscreen wiper speed is using that, there is no speed control on the wheel or control stalks.

in the new model S you need it to change gears also if you dont want the car to "guess" LUL

well this probably puts me off of ever getting a tesla

[Bombastinator]

22 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

in the new model S you need it to change gears also if you dont want the car to "guess" LUL

My memory is there was only one tesla model that ever had gears.  The put a 2 speed hydromatic  in one of their roadsters so it could hit high speeds as well as have mind bending acceleration. The phrase “180mph” sticks in my mind, but I have no idea if it’s right or not.  This is one of the things about electric cars.  Crazy zero-60 does not necessarily translate into high top speed.  I don’t know about the new models though.  One of the ways they stay cheap (for certain definitions of cheap) is they avoid transmissions and all their fiddly  little parts entirely.  My memory is They went with a hydromatic (a very very early automatic transmission much loved by drag racers) because it was out of patent, available as a crate product, and didn’t have very many parts.

Edited February 13 by Bombastinator

[Zodiark1593]

42 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

My memory is there was only one tesla model that ever had gears.  The put a 2 speed hydromatic  in one of their roadsters so it could hit high speeds as well as have mind bending acceleration. The phrase “180mph” sticks in my mind, but I have no idea if it’s right or not.  This is one of the things about electric cars.  Crazy zero-60 does not necessarily translate into high top speed.  I don’t know about the new models though.  One of the ways they stay cheap (for certain definitions of cheap) is they avoid transmissions and all their fiddly  little parts entirely.  My memory is They went with a hydromatic (a very very early automatic transmission much loved by drag racers) because it was out of patent, available as a crate product, and didn’t have very many parts.

From what I recall, Tesla ditched the two-speed as the electric motors had so much torque, the transmissions suffered reliability problems. 

[Bitter]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

There are various definitions of impossible.  Theoretically impossible and practically impossible are different things but they’re both “impossible”.

 

As to the better way, you could very well be right.  One is definitely needed.  Average life of a car hasn’t been 5 years in a very long time.  I’m driving a 2008. 

I just replaced the original fuel pressure regulator on my 1998! My other car is a 2000! GF drives a 2016! If these were Tesla's they'd be 2/3 long dead with one having a year to go. I thought Tesla was boasting about how little degradation it's battery packs experience a last year?

[atxcyclist]

I have desktop computers in my house and office from 2010 that are still fine, my car from 2005 is still fine too. 5-6 year lifespan on a vehicle system is unacceptable.

[RedRound2]

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I don't think the cameras are the reason, it's more of the logging.  The cameras, likely, get streamed into RAM and processed there...just like you would on a normal computer processing vision.  For recording footage, that is already handled on a separate device.

I did mean logging the camera feed. And Im not talking about sentry mode, which is indeed an external storage medium. I'm not sure if this is still true, but Tesla does log all video footage and send it to themselves to improve their self driving NN. Otherwise I can't really think of any possible reason on why the entire drive needs to be written everyday

[bcredeur97]

tesla is still on the edge of not being a profitable company. 

Of course they are going to be really tight and cut corners. You're paying the early adopter tax buying their cars right now. 

Very cool concept and I love what they are trying to do but it's still early. Patience.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Zodiark1593 said:

From what I recall, Tesla ditched the two-speed as the electric motors had so much torque, the transmissions suffered reliability problems. 

A hydromatic suffering reliability problems.  Wow.  Hydromatics are legendarily tough and reliable.  If a tesla is causing problems for a hydromatic that bespeaks some serious oomph.  It’s the favored transmission for 1000+hp hand built muscle cars.  At the end of the day though a transmission is still a whole lot of moving parts that can bend and wear.  Even a super simple one like a hydromatic. 

[Bombastinator]

17 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

tesla is still on the edge of not being a profitable company. 

Of course they are going to be really tight and cut corners. You're paying the early adopter tax buying their cars right now. 

Very cool concept and I love what they are trying to do but it's still early. Patience.

You pay the early adopter tax with any new model of any car.  It means less with cars.

[Zodiark1593]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

A hydromatic suffering reliability problems.  Wow.  Hydromatics are legendarily tough and reliable.  If a tesla is causing problems for a hydromatic that bespeaks some serious oomph.  It’s the favored transmission for 1000+hp hand built muscle cars.  At the end of the day though a transmission is still a whole lot of moving parts that can bend and wear.  Even a super simple one like a hydromatic. 

Brushless DC motors can put out a startlingly large amount of torque at zero RPM. It’s at zero that the torque produced is actually at its highest. Torque falls off rapidly in the higher rpm ranges, so a Tesla motor of the time isn’t especially remarkable if you only look at horsepower. A model S produced about 503 horsepower at 6150 RPM, and 487 ft-lb of torque at 0 RPM. 
 

ICE engines produce a grand total of zero torque at zero RPM, with maximum torque generally hitting somewhere higher in the rpm range, with a more gradual ramping, which probably plays a role in transmission reliability. Depending on the configuration, torque can be sustained to some rather high rpm, contributing to horsepower. 

[thechinchinsong]

1 hour ago, bcredeur97 said:

tesla is still on the edge of not being a profitable company. 

Of course they are going to be really tight and cut corners. You're paying the early adopter tax buying their cars right now. 

Very cool concept and I love what they are trying to do but it's still early. Patience.

Very true. Both sides of the argument on Tesla are pretty spot on imo. They are definitely not that profitable right now, but they also have vast potential. I'm thinking another decade before Tesla blooms or withers to their lofty expectations.

[Monkey Dust]

9 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Interestingly, from the limited number cars I've seen/heard of, one or more of the seat-heaters tend to fail before reaching 10 years. My 2013 Chevrolet Cruze has a failed driver's-side seat-heater as well and I don't know how long it has been like that (could definitely have used it this winter!).

 

Admittedly, I can entirely understand such a component failing, since it's in a moving part (the seat), it tends to get a lot of stress from the people plopping their smelly asses on it and just plain heating up to rather hot temperatures and cooling down is a stressful thing as well.

It's kneeling on the seat that breaks the heating element. Don't kneel on your heated seats people.

[suicidalfranco]

8 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

The 1994 Toyota Camry laughs hysterically at that claim. 

meanwhile a know people still driving their 1980 fiat pandas

[descendency]

8 hours ago, Heliian said:

Musk is a billionaire, how is there cash flow problems?  

A large portion of his worth is tied up in stock. Also, his personal wealth and the liquid assets of Tesla are not related at all. 

[Bombastinator]

15 minutes ago, descendency said:

A large portion of his worth is tied up in stock. Also, his personal wealth and the liquid assets of Tesla are not related at all. 

There are ways to to produce liquid capital from those tied assists though.  He may not want to do them of course.  Each has its own little bear trap.  Usually there’s some sort of interest rate as well which can eat you alive.  Liquid and non liquid assets do not behave the same way.  The term is “cash equivelant”

[Bombastinator]

4 hours ago, thechinchinsong said:

Very true. Both sides of the argument on Tesla are pretty spot on imo. They are definitely not that profitable right now, but they also have vast potential. I'm thinking another decade before Tesla blooms or withers to their lofty expectations.

This is a thing with car makers.  Many of the car makers are OLD.  Hundreds of years frequently.  Many of the ones that are “new” actually made something other than cars for a long time before that.  One famous example is Lamborghini which was a manufacturer of construction equipment long before they became a car maker.   Several of the Korean and Japanese car makers are like that.  There is a standard of profitability of five years in general in businesses, but I don’t think it’s ever applied to the auto industry.

[wanderingfool2]

13 hours ago, Heliian said:

Musk is a billionaire, how is there cash flow problems?  

Well there are a few things wrong with that logic...the first being, Musk isn't Tesla.  The second being, even if you included Musk's wealth, like many billionaire's he is rich on paper.  A lot of his wealth would be tied up in stocks/assets.

 

13 hours ago, James Evens said:

This thing is definitely amid to prevent liability but saying the main control element is expected to need a replacement over the cars lifetime is noticeable. Especially since they are restrictive regarding repairs meaning they can do it like apple: make the necessary repair/upgrade so expensive that you prefer to buy a new car. Will be interesting if future abo services will include hardware or if it is additional cost on top.

Well in that regards though, the newer MCU's (Mid 2018 and later) do have larger capacity (and thus should wear a lot less).

 

 

 

Ultimately though, the thing to look at is the other car manufactures have been guilty of downplaying even more dangerous things.  It isn't like it's an uncommon practice.  e.g. The key ignition scandal (knowing of a danger and literally thought that the amount of deaths was justifiable for the cost).

 

 

[Spindel]

14 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

My memory is there was only one tesla model that ever had gears.  The put a 2 speed hydromatic  in one of their roadsters so it could hit high speeds as well as have mind bending acceleration. The phrase “180mph” sticks in my mind, but I have no idea if it’s right or not.  This is one of the things about electric cars.  Crazy zero-60 does not necessarily translate into high top speed.  I don’t know about the new models though.  One of the ways they stay cheap (for certain definitions of cheap) is they avoid transmissions and all their fiddly  little parts entirely.  My memory is They went with a hydromatic (a very very early automatic transmission much loved by drag racers) because it was out of patent, available as a crate product, and didn’t have very many parts.

As I remember the 2-speed was to keep the electric motors at highest efficiency even at criuse speeds. Electric motors also have a optimal RPM if you go for energy efficiency, if you go outside of that you start to lose (relatively) a lot of efficiency and in extension range.

[asquirrel]

On 2/13/2021 at 12:33 AM, WereCatf said:

Bull. Fucking. Shit. The infotainment-system very much is a big part of the car's design -- one could argue it is very much a center piece of the design -- and selling-points and it definitely should last a lot, LOT longer than just 5-6 years.

 

Tesla is constantly in the news in a rather negative way and they're always just making excuses or pointing fingers at someone else, instead of taking responsibility for anything. You don't hear much about any other electric car - manufacturer -- good or bad -- and, if I had the money to buy one, I'd buy an electric car from anyone other than Tesla.

It's almost like the company is run by someone who is inherently super greedy and possibly narcissistic. Can you imagine if a CEO wanted to live on another planet so he could have a place to watch this one die? Or if he simultaneously paid his employees 70% of the market rate salary while also taking home over 4x the salary of the next highest CEO **in the world**. Good thing Tesla's CEO is nothing like that! He's an idealist with humanity's best interests in mind! He's creating internet that literally goes over the heads of the established internet providers and bypassing the whole need to lay cables and get construction approvals. He's so smart and clever!

 

And this is the problem with humans. Both sides of a coin can be true at once. Everything in the paragraph above is true. But rare are the people who can point out that Elon is simultaneously a massive asshole and an actual genius capable of really doing good for society.

 

There's one other wrinkle. In order to run a publicly traded company, you have to be the majority shareholder. If you hold the majority of shares of a company the size of Tesla, then you're going to be STUPID RICH on paper. So that's part of Elon's immense wealth right there. But he also legitimately takes home 4.5x what Tim Cook does (sauce) which is insane. A reasonable person would *either* be greedy or fuck over his employees. Elon has the balls to not only do both, but to actively shame anyone who isn't 100% about the mission of his companies.

 

Seriously, talk to some people who applied to Tesla/SpaceX. If something comes up and you need to move an interview they cancel you outright because "we should be your highest priority and you clearly aren't committed to our goals". Not only do these people pay you 70% of what you're worth, they also expect you to put work ahead of literally every other goal in your life. Having a baby? Better bring the laptop with you into the delivery room so you can keep working! Son's first steps, just pop your head up from the laptop! ...ok, so I'm being a bit dramatic here, but I really, really, really hate greed, and Elon creates a culture of extreme greed, and is extremely greedy himself.

 

Part of why I'm so salty about all this is because I really want a Tesla. I want to vote with my dollar for a technology I think is a step in the right direction. What I'm not willing to do is vote with my dollar while also being forced to take a saguaro cactus up the poop chute by the company that makes said car for the 'privilege' of owning one. We need robust right to repair laws that put a stop to this shit, and we also need fines that are more then a slap on the wrist. But all this crap changes when evil doers are held accountable. When was the last time a CEO or political figure went to jail for crimes most of us would get the death penalty/a life sentence for? That's the problem. There are two legal systems. One for the poors, and one for the ultra-rich. This.must.stop. There's no reason to fear consequences when there are no consequences.

[wanderingfool2]

On 2/12/2021 at 10:33 PM, WereCatf said:

Tesla is constantly in the news in a rather negative way and they're always just making excuses or pointing fingers at someone else, instead of taking responsibility for anything. You don't hear much about any other electric car - manufacturer -- good or bad -- and, if I had the money to buy one, I'd buy an electric car from anyone other than Tesla.

There has been a considerable amount of news/reviews that is fabricated or highly misleading statements in it (e.g. The consumer reports that put autopilot at a distance second because they essentially took points away for the fact autopilot can be turned on anywhere, instead of it being restricted).

 

So if you want are claiming Tesla is so worse than other companies, then tell me a company that hasn't had issues (some much worse)?

e.g. GM declaring their vehicles were safe to drive (The ignition switch scandal, which they knew was deadly but didn't do anything about until they were sued into recalling).  They literally covered it up

Toyota had a flaw in their accelerator (but blamed customers then the floor mat)

Nissan leaf's have known battery issues...as they aren't cooled properly (planned obsolescence as the batteries are expensive and have OEM DRM kind of controls on it)

Volkswagen and their emission scandal

Jeep's had a gearshift issue that caused deaths (fixed via software update)

Takata airbags (caused deaths and were installed in millions of cars)

 

I get that there are a lot of Tesla fanboys out there, but I would say there are more so that are on the opposite side who only hear what they want to hear.  The only manufacturer that I couldn't really think off that had issues off the bat was Ford.

 

1 hour ago, asquirrel said:

So that's part of Elon's immense wealth right there. But he also legitimately takes home 4.5x what Tim Cook does (sauce) which is insane. A reasonable person would *either* be greedy or fuck over his employees. Elon has the balls to not only do both, but to actively shame anyone who isn't 100% about the mission of his companies.

Elon's compensation is completely in stock options...if the stock hadn't jumped by over 10 fold his salary would have been quite a bit more reasonable...it's the extreme movement of the stock that caused his wealth.  Tesla employees also had stock options available to them, so had they done that they would have been making quite the decent wage.  Had the stock stayed roughly the same, he would have made nothing.  (Literally he got paid so much because in 1 year period Tesla hit the goal that was intended to be hit 8 years down the road).  That also benefits Tesla as a whole as well because they can do capital raises and progress quicker