US Military says Drone Zerg Rushes may be Overpowered

[rcmaehl]

Summary

US Army Generals are reporting that drone swarms may be too much for a human to counter.

 

Media

 

Quotes

Quote

Head of Army Futures Command, told a webinar audience at the Center for Strategic & International Studies that humans may not be able to fight swarms of enemy drones. "When you are defending against a drone swarm, a human may be required to make that first decision, but I am just not sure any human can keep up". The Pentagon’s rules on the use of autonomous weapons... require meaningful human control over any lethal system, though that may be in a supervisory role rather than direct control – termed ‘human-on-the-loop’ rather than ‘human-in-the-loop.’  Pentagon leaders need to lead a discussion on how much human control of AI is needed to be safe but still effective. Military swarms of a few hundred drones have already been demonstrated, in future we are likely to see swarms of thousands, or more. One U.S. Navy project envisages having to counter up to a million drones at once. The U.S. Army is spending a billion dollars on new air defense vehicles known as IM-SHORAD with cannon, two types of missile, jammers, and future options of laser and interceptor drones. Using the right weapon against the right target at the right time will be vital. Faced with large numbers of incoming threats, many of which may be decoys, human gunners are likely to be overtaxed. This is not the first time that the Army Future Command... suggested that humans... may be outclassed. AI is in the ascendant. The 5-0 victory over a human pilot in a virtual dogfight last August is still being debated, but there is no doubting that machines have faster reflexes,... ability to keep track of several things at once, and are not troubled by the fatigue or fear. There is the military argument. If AI-controlled weapons can defeat those operated by humans, then whoever has the AIs will win and failing to deploy them means accepting defeat.

 

My thoughts

OMG CHINA I SAID NO ZERG RUSH 5 MINUTES. Regardless, it's interesting to see how robotics is changing warfare. Perhaps, in the future we'll have to study how gamers have previously defended against hypothetical attacks and implement them in a more realistic way. I'm sure that within the next few years, some countries will have a space weapon.

 

Sources

Forbes (Quote Source)

Military.com

[williamcll]

I remember the PLA have some kind of 40mm SAM designed to hit drones.

 

Also

 

[wamred]

Yeah it is quite interesting to see how the internet is changing war. 

[rcmaehl]

11 minutes ago, williamcll said:

I remember the PLA have some kind of 40mm SAM designed to hit drones.

 

Also

 

10/10 entertainment

[lostcattears]

signal jamming what else would they do.

[TargetDron3]

I'm sure a swarm of drones is susceptible to the same things a swarm of people are.  Anti-aircraft flak will solve those problems.   

More technology isn't always the answer.  Sometimes the simple things will screw up technology pretty quick and for very cheap.

[Jason 57]

7 minutes ago, TargetDron3 said:

I'm sure a swarm of drones is susceptible to the same things a swarm of people are.  Anti-aircraft flak will solve those problems.   

More technology isn't always the answer.  Sometimes the simple things will screw up technology pretty quick and for very cheap.

Yeah, a CWIS gun on a naval vessel can do some nice damage to a flock of birds. 

Seems like this is the same issue. 

[Letgomyleghoe]

9 minutes ago, TargetDron3 said:

I'm sure a swarm of drones is susceptible to the same things a swarm of people are.  Anti-aircraft flak will solve those problems.   

More technology isn't always the answer.  Sometimes the simple things will screw up technology pretty quick and for very cheap.

 

1 minute ago, Jason 57 said:

Yeah, a CWIS gun on a naval vessel can do some nice damage to a flock of birds. 

Seems like this is the same issue. 

the problem with these is they're unsafe to use on low flying aircraft and/or drones. 

[Tristerin]

Create focused/controlled EMP blasts/blasters

 

Those things cant fly in a faraday cage.  

 

But yeah my 12ga wont be able to stop a swarm.

[Jason 57]

1 minute ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

 

the problem with these is they're unsafe to use on low flying aircraft and/or drones. 

Well the CWIS isn't normally put to full AUTO. As much as I can remember. 

When my ship did it, it was just happenstance that they were performing maintenance on that mount, and the seagulls were there. 

 

Funny we had chicken for dinner???? LOL

[Tristerin]

Actually, going out and shooting this tomorrow morning now has more relevance than ever.

 

[TargetDron3]

1 hour ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

 

the problem with these is they're unsafe to use on low flying aircraft and/or drones. 

If you are being attacked, safe is gone. You do what you need to do to survive. 

[Sauron]

[StDragon]

I remember it being called a blitzkrieg

 

Anyways, electronic jamming would be the primary method. Essentially, you either interrupt remote communications or you overpower the electronics to force them into malfunctioning. If they're AI flown with GPS, you either jam or spoof GPS signaling.

 

 

[Brooksie359]

3 hours ago, lostcattears said:

signal jamming what else would they do.

If they are running without a controller and are 100% autonomous then a signal jammer will do nothing. 

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Tristerin said:

Create focused/controlled EMP blasts/blasters

 

Those things cant fly in a faraday cage.  

 

But yeah my 12ga wont be able to stop a swarm.

Well what about 2 12ga? Or maybe a swarm of 12ga? Or maybe a swarm of harpoons?

[Beskamir]

I'd expect an EMP would be highly effective.

[whm1974]

Do they make DU pellets or DU Slugs for Shotguns? What about Flecetts?

[Letgomyleghoe]

9 hours ago, StDragon said:

I remember it being called a blitzkrieg

 

blitzkrieg is something entirely different, blitzkrieg is a war tactic that rely on penetrating with a head of forces, then allowing others to fall in behind you fortifying your grounds and providing ample supply of cargo, ammo, and replenishments, there's quite a few videos explaining it on youtube. 

 

11 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Lasers are probably the best option.

laser systems are not yet sophisticated or advanced enough to deal with large swarms of drones, lockheed martin and boeing has their systems, but it would take multiple hundreds of the lasers to be able to take care of a drone swarm. while this may be the future, it certainly won't be very soon. EMP's would work, due to blocking out EMP with coatings would also block out all outer control, assuming they are controlled by actual people and not AI inside of the drone itself. The downside to EMP's though is the possible damage to other electronics, sure if there's a drone attack it may be better to kill electronics than risk lives, but there's other ways that would minimize loses. 

1. small ~40mm proximity detonation flak shells would work.
2. net guns, as silly as it sounds, you can jam a rather large net in a 40mm shell. a few higher RPM 40mm AA guns and you're set
 

[ToboRobot]

7 hours ago, whm1974 said:

Do they make DU pellets or DU Slugs for Shotguns? What about Flecetts?

Who needs a shotgun when a Phalanx CIWS can fire 4500 rounds per minute of 20mm DU?
 

[Doobeedoo]

Fun times we live in.

[CarlBar]

22 hours ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

the problem with these is they're unsafe to use on low flying aircraft and/or drones. 

 

Um what. That was the default AAA for most of WW2 you know. it's perfectly safe provided they're not flying over civillians or your own troops. And the later case your allready in trouble.

 

28 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

As for small arms fire or anti-aircraft  weaponry that's kind of the point of using a lot of drones. You'll overwhelm and kill any threats with numbers before they can destroy any meaningful amount of them. But it's just not as easy as you'd think.

 

Not really. A proper medium calibre automatic with the right sensor and software packages firing proximity fused flak would decimate entire swarms in a few seconds. Most naval warships these days have somthing very much like this for use against low flying aircraft and small patrol boats that missiles might struggle with. Not to mention various dedicated CIWS setups.

 

The reason the pentagon is losing it's shit over this ii that the US army, (along with most of the rest of the world's land armies), phased things like that out of land service a long time ago. They rely on, (for the US), a mixture Stingers, and Bradley/Abrams main guns under FCS control. Neither the Abrams nor the Stingers really have the Rate of Fire for this at all, and the Bradley doesn't really have the RoF or the software to be great at it. It's also arguably a little on the small side calibre wise limiting it's effective range.

 

It's a solvable problem, but one that will require new dedicated SPAA vehicles. Something thats been not been part of the US armies arsenal for a fair few decades.

[akio123008]

20 hours ago, StDragon said:

electronic jamming would be the primary method

What's with everyone thinking you can disable drones that easily using jamming/EMP devices and whatnot.

 

May I remind you that essentially any vehicle/aircraft contains electronics, and it's not like those get taken out in action on the battlefield all the time using EMP devices.

 

You know what their secret trick is? It's called a metal box.

[whm1974]

5 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Who needs a shotgun when a Phalanx CIWS can fire 4500 rounds per minute of 20mm DU?
 

I was referring to low flying small groups of drones. Shotguns are common Civilian Hunting and Sporting Weapon. And there is Steel Shot, but I think that is Mild Steel and not AP at all.

 

[ToboRobot]

7 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

I was referring to low flying small groups of drones. Shotguns are common Civilian Hunting and Sporting Weapon. And there is Steel Shot, but I think that is Mild Steel and not AP at all.

 

ok.  A volume of fire is still going to be better than a shotgun or airburst munition.

Phalanx CIWS Close-in Weapon System In Action - US Navy's Deadly Autocannon - YouTube