Help from the community RTX 3080 Fraud

[Exidor]

Hello,

 

I am sorry if this is in the wrong section.

 

I fully admit writing this post mostly out of self interest.

Never the less I am surely not alone and we are talking about a case of massive fraud here in the EU.

I think needs to get out there and get news coverage.

 

This particular case concerns a large German retailer namely:

computeruniverse GmbH

Grüner Weg 14

D-61169

Friedberg

Deutschland / Germany

Ust-Id-Nr.: DE812826949

WEEE-Reg.-Nr.: DE 77041682

They are a large online retailer here in the EU they ship everywhere and have a turn over of more than 250 million Euros annually and that was before the Pandemic.

 

I ordered a Asus RTX 3080 Strix OC from them on the 28.10.2020 I paid full price over credit card 981,71 Euros. The card was marked as shipping has issues thats a rough translation from German. They officially put it as "Availability is subject to significant fluctuations"

They have been promising to ship the card for three months.

Now on the 26.01.2021 they took down the card and the next day removed the whole category of 3080 cards only one was listed over search as available for instant shipping. Before the listings were taken down the same card and all other top tier cards were listed for 1417 Euros. They cancelled all the 3080 orders and refuse to provide alternatives saying that we are welcome to choose another product. First I asked them to ship me a different 3080 when they answered today(29.01.2021) that it is unavailable. I wrote them this:

 

Look I have been reasonable with you and waited for 3 months......

I work in the IT field and like many I am stuck in a home office environment. Not having this hardware I ordered and paid for is causing me losses as a business..... I lose time on my projects and I get paid by the hour.

I welcome you to contact me by phone. I speak German so that wont be a problem. I will keep this email exchange in English for legal purposes.

 

But there is a limit to my patience.

If you are not going to ship me the product I will be contacting a lawyer in German. And also consumer protection agencies both locally and in Germany.

I even think that media might be interested in getting involved. I suspect I am not the only customer who has this issue. We are potentially talking about possible fraud in the millions of Euros. I am sure many German and European news outlets would be interested in this story. 

 

 

As I see the situation you committed fraud. At best this can be described as bait and switch.

Your company committed to delivering a product. The piece of the product went up. So you own your customers the product they paid for or a market equivalent or better product. If the market changed and the price went up that is your problem and not a cost you can offset onto your customers.

There is a legal minimal interest rate for loans. Your customers did not gift you the money or lend it to you. This money was payment for a product you failed to deliver. You were free to use this money in your business for 3 months without paying any interest on it. How much would such a loan coast at a bank? An unsecured working capital loan?

 

I suggested a solution ship an equivalent product to the one I paid for namely:

https://www.computeruniverse.net/de/evga-geforce-rtx3080-ftw3-ultra-gaming-10-gb-oc-enthusiast-grafikkarte

EVGA GeForce RTX3080 FTW3 Ultra GAMING 10 GB OC Enthusiast Grafikkarte

 

Alternatively ship me a Nvidia RTX 3090 

EVGA GeForce RTX3090 FTW3 ULTRA GAMING 24 GB OC Enthusiast Grafikkarte

https://www.computeruniverse.net/de/evga-geforce-rtx3090-ftw3-ultra-gaming-24-gb-oc-enthusiast-grafikkarte

 

Or I will be forced to contact a lawyer and then I will be suing for the current market value plus damages.

 

 

 

Respectfully

 

 

This is exactly how I feel what they committed is fraud bait and switch at best.

They sold hundreds if not thousands of this cards. (They have a counter on the website of how many have been sold this week. And that was constantly over 200 when ever I checked the product page hoping for a shipping update.) They took the money and committed to delivering a product. Now they are forcing people to either cancel their order and swallow the difference to go try buy a new RTX 3080 on the market or buy some crap valued a 981 Euros at their webstore. By law they own us a product or its equivalent value if all the EU shops price the product hire that is their problem. In addition they never shipped within a reasonable time frame that again can be seen as a violation of this law. This was not a preorder they were selling the product and promising to ship in a timely manner. In emails always promising next week.

Even a god damn loan would have accumulated interest. How much would an unsecured working-capital loan run you nowadays? 6% probably not even sure any normal bank would offer you such a loan probably would have to go to a shadowbank. Here where I come from also the EU the major banks would charge you around 8-10% and shadowbanks 10-15%.

 

If anybody else has similar issues with this or other web stores please post here.

[Exidor]

Sorry for the typos....

I am currently just very pissed off.....

[seon123]

4 minutes ago, Exidor said:

I will be contacting a lawyer in German. And also consumer protection agencies both locally and in Germany.

Then just go and do that, instead of venting on a forum.

[Exidor]

I already did.

 

But this needs to get media coverage this is fraud.

[Exidor]

1 minute ago, seon123 said:

Then just go and do that, instead of venting on a forum.

And I am not venting. It is my genuine opinion that such behavior needs to be brought to the attention of the media.

Especially in the wake of the CyberPunk style dystopia we are accelerating towards.

[Biomecanoid]

7 minutes ago, Exidor said:

Sorry for the typos....

I am currently just very pissed off.....

Just buy from online shops that support PayPal next time

[Exidor]

Just now, Biomecanoid said:

Just buy from online shops that support PayPal next time

I have no problem getting my initial payment back.

My bank will cover this no problem. But I paid for a product that now costs 1400 Euros in the EU. I am unwilling to take a haircut just because a company decided to speculate. This is not how the law works.

[IntMD]

What exactly is the fraud? I take it they have refunded you?

 

I know Overclockers UK have been having problems getting 3080s in particular, but are still honouring the preorders that were taken before they were closed (far too late, in all honesty as for certain cards, they still haven't got release day orders complete yet). They've also stated that 3080s are in particularly short supply with few delivery dates coming up for any of them over the next month or so, particularly with Chinese New Year and the usual factory shut downs and delays that causes every year.

 

I can understand why a company would have pulled them and refunded, if they literally cannot get them, which is the take I'm getting from your long post. I can also understand why you are pissed, but it's not really fraud if they refund you due to being unable to fulfill your order. Now, if they had cancelled orders, then had them for immediate delivery at the higher price, sure.

[Exidor]

When I last checked we do not live in a Plutocracy or a Kleptocracy.

And not in a fucking corporate state yet.

 

There is a reason why the 4th power named Media exists and why we have a independent court system.........

[Arika]

1 minute ago, Exidor said:

When I last checked we do not live in a Plutocracy or a Kleptocracy.

And not in a fucking corporate state yet.

 

There is a reason why the 4th power named Media exists and why we have a independent court system.........

So take your complaints to the local media. We're a community forum for a Canadian Youtube channel, i'm not entirely sure what you want us to do about it?

 

LMG is not going to get involved in drama with a European retailer.

[Exidor]

1 minute ago, IntMD said:

What exactly is the fraud? I take it they have refunded you?

 

I know Overclockers UK have been having problems getting 3080s in particular, but are still honouring the preorders that were taken before they were closed (far too late, in all honesty as for certain cards, they still haven't got release day orders complete yet). They've also stated that 3080s are in particularly short supply with few delivery dates coming up for any of them over the next month or so, particularly with Chinese New Year and the usual factory shut downs and delays that causes every year.

 

I can understand why a company would have pulled them and refunded, if they literally cannot get them, which is the take I'm getting from your long post. I can also understand why you are pissed, but it's not really fraud if they refund you due to being unable to fulfill your order. Now, if they had cancelled orders, then had them for immediate delivery at the higher price, sure.

OK give me 900 Euros for three months. I promise I do my best to try and to buy you a 3080. Hell I can even use a reputable company name if you wish.

How does that sound?

 

There are laws that govern minimal intrastate on loans.

Also I paid for a product if the price went up that is their problem. If you buy shares or real estate and somebody holds it for you then you ask it back to sell it because the price went up and the guy gives you the initial monetary value keeps the 30% profit he maid for selling at a higher price and says sorry man..... Here is your money.

[Exidor]

5 minutes ago, Arika S said:

So take your complaints to the local media. We're a community forum for a Canadian Youtube channel, i'm not entirely sure what you want us to do about it?

 

LMG is not going to get involved in drama with a European retailer.

The community has EU members at the very least this will be a warning to them.

If they decide not to feature it so be it. That is their right.

If they wish they can move lock or delete the thread.

[Biomecanoid]

14 minutes ago, Exidor said:

I have no problem getting my initial payment back.

My bank will cover this no problem. But I paid for a product that now costs 1400 Euros in the EU. I am unwilling to take a haircut just because a company decided to speculate. This is not how the law works.

If you got your money back if they refunded you for the whole amount, then you are in fault

[Exidor]

2 minutes ago, Biomecanoid said:

If you got your money back if they refunded you for the whole amount, then you are in fault

As I said they have not refunded me.

 

Also just out of curiosity how would I be at fault?

I can state at least three legal principals they broke.

[Biomecanoid]

Just now, Exidor said:

As I said they have not refunded me.

 

Also just out of curiosity how would I be at fault?

I can state at least three legal principals they broke.

 

19 minutes ago, Exidor said:

I have no problem getting my initial payment back.

My bank will cover this no problem. But I paid for a product that now costs 1400 Euros in the EU. I am unwilling to take a haircut just because a company decided to speculate. This is not how the law works.

You are conflicting:

 

Which of the 2 statements is true ? "As I said they have not refunded me".   or   "I have no problem getting my initial payment back".

 

[IntMD]

4 minutes ago, Exidor said:

As I said they have not refunded me.

 

Also just out of curiosity how would I be at fault?

I can state at least three legal principals they broke.

Have they said they are not going to refund you then, or is it just that the funds aren't in your account yet? You didn't actually mention them not refunding you specifically in your original post, just that you can get it back from the CC company, so I just thought the refund was likely on the standard few days to go back in to your account type thing that normally occurs.

 

Also, on your previous reply to my other post, you clearly didn't read what I said, so...

[Exidor]

3 minutes ago, Biomecanoid said:

 

You are conflicting:

 

Which of the 2 statements is true ? "As I said they have not refunded me".   or   "I have no problem getting my initial payment back".

 

Not conflicted I can get my money back through my credit card company.

I do not have the money.

 

I have not started the process of getting the money back through my credit card company.

I have an insurance plan with my credit card company that covers such cases.

 

 

 

 

Also as stated multiple times.

This is not about a refund but fraud.

 

Everyone who thinks this is not fraud please state your argument.

I have stated mine repeatedly in the posts above. 

[Biomecanoid]

2 minutes ago, Exidor said:

Not conflicted I can get my money back through my credit card company.

I do not have the money.

If you can get your money back with whatever means you can, then there is no issue here 

[-iSynthesis]

23 minutes ago, IntMD said:

What exactly is the fraud? I take it they have refunded you?

 

I know Overclockers UK have been having problems getting 3080s in particular, but are still honouring the preorders that were taken before they were closed (far too late, in all honesty as for certain cards, they still haven't got release day orders complete yet). They've also stated that 3080s are in particularly short supply with few delivery dates coming up for any of them over the next month or so, particularly with Chinese New Year and the usual factory shut downs and delays that causes every year.

 

I can understand why a company would have pulled them and refunded, if they literally cannot get them, which is the take I'm getting from your long post. I can also understand why you are pissed, but it's not really fraud if they refund you due to being unable to fulfill your order. Now, if they had cancelled orders, then had them for immediate delivery at the higher price, sure.

German law makes it rather difficult to retract an already made purchase as a seller. Once you buy something a so-called "Kaufvertrag" is made, basically an agreement of purchase between the two sides. There are few reasons why one would be able to back out from that, most of those reasons are subject to the buyer, not the seller. 

I quote with own translation from the law §433 BGB:
(1) Through the agreement of purchase the seller is obligated to present the buyer with the object and ownership of said item. The seller is obligated to hand the item over without defects (physically or legally).

(2) The buyer is obligated to pay the agreed-upon price for the item as well as take the item from the seller.

 

A simple refund is NOT a substitute for handing over the item unless they have very good reasons not to do so (e.g. the item is not being produced anymore, etc.). You can agree to a refund, which might make more sense than a legal battle but that's about it.

 

Given all that I'm not a lawyer obviously so don't take this as legal advice^^

[Moonzy]

You said it's not pre-order but you ordered an item with a promise for delivery, sounds pretty much like pre-order to me tbh

 

IMO if they refunded you (which they didn't) then all is well, you wasted time but you agreed to let them to try and fulfill your order.

 

The best option I can think of is them keeping your money and you waiting for the card you ordered to be delivered, imo, whether it's 2 weeks or 6 months later.

Or a refund.

 

I never understand why people are willing to pay money for something that's not in stock, other places might have stocks while you're still waiting for yours lol

[IntMD]

Just now, -iSynthesis said:

German law makes it rather difficult to retract an already made purchase as a seller. Once you buy something a so-called "Kaufvertrag" is made, basically an agreement of purchase between the two sides. There are few reasons why one would be able to back out from that, most of those reasons are subject to the buyer, not the seller. 

I quote with own translation from the law §433 BGB:
(1) Through the agreement of purchase the seller is obligated to present the buyer with the object and ownership of said item. The seller is obligated to hand the item over without defects (physically or legally).

(2) The buyer is obligated to pay the agreed-upon price for the item as well as take the item from the seller.

 

A simple refund is NOT a substitute for handing over the item unless they have very good reasons not to do so (e.g. the item is not being produced anymore, etc.). You can agree to a refund, which might make more sense than a legal battle but that's about it.

 

Given all that I'm not a lawyer obviously so don't take this as legal advice^^

It is pretty much the same wording in UK law.

 

I would say being unable to provide a reasonable timescale for actually being able to fulfill the order, would be perfectly understandable grounds for issuing a refund (which they apparently haven't done... but that is another part of the story, and they definitely should be refunding without having to go through the CC company). Personally, if I was the company, I'd have done it differently and just said to people, 'We can't get stock, we don't know when we will be able to get stock, please have a refund if you want'.

[Exidor]

So everybody who thinks that a refund when ever is a legally solid solution.

I encourage you to write that in your next business plan under working capital acquisition. And try and see how that goes.

 

Most certainly holding somebodies money without paying interest under the pretense of a sales contract is illegal under any law.

 

 

They used the money of everybody who ordered an item from them to conduct business and generate a profit.

There is even a high probability that they sold every single GTX 3080 they got delivered at a higher markup neglecting the previous orders.

Unless a court opens their paperwork and proves otherwise.

 

 

 

PreOrders need to be clearly defined as such. Other wise that is again fraud especially under German Marketing laws.

There is also an accounting difference. As that would be marked as owned to the customers. When a sale goes through the money moves to the company active account and they can use it freely. Sure many companies might neglect that rule. And unless caught that is not an issue. 

[Exidor]

4 minutes ago, IntMD said:

It is pretty much the same wording in UK law.

 

I would say being unable to provide a reasonable timescale for actually being able to fulfill the order, would be perfectly understandable grounds for issuing a refund (which they apparently haven't done... but that is another part of the story, and they definitely should be refunding without having to go through the CC company). Personally, if I was the company, I'd have done it differently and just said to people, 'We can't get stock, we don't know when we will be able to get stock, please have a refund if you want'.

They are actively selling EVGA cards at a higher markup and delivering them. For 1417 euros Even right now on the website EVGA 3080 1417 euros instant shipping.

And I pointed them in the email that I am willing to accept one of those. Or any other 3080 or 3090.....

 

So I wish them luck with a court case proving they had no stock.

 

 

 

And the whole using other peoples money bit.....

[IntMD]

Just now, Exidor said:

They are actively selling BFG cards at a higher markup and delivering them. For 1417 euros 

So, they cancelled all the BFG orders too, and are now just selling them normally but for a markup? Sure, thats not good.

[Exidor]

7 minutes ago, IntMD said:

So, they cancelled all the BFG orders too, and are now just selling them normally but for a markup? Sure, thats not good.

I do not know if they cancelled EVGA orders sorry was a typo I fixed it.

But they are selling them right now for 1417. When I was buying last year the EVGA was the same price as the Strix OC 981