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Response to Linus' Terrible Non-Apology About RAID Sponsorship

LAwLz

So...if you don't watch LTT videos, why do you care?

It doesn't really affect you. It's not like you're invested in LTT in any way.

Just felt like going on a long rant?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the same boat. I find most of LTT's videos to be rather pointless; extreme things that no one will do or buy, more entertainment value than actual informative content, etc. I like some things, like WAN show and, to a degree, the builds they do for the RoG campaign. Building the staff PCs (the latest videos where they go to their houses, not those boring streams) is decent. Other than that, not my bag. But. At the same time, I don't really care what they do ad wise, since I can either A) easily skip it, B) move to a window I'm doing something else in, or C) close the video and not lose out on much. It doesn't affect me in any way shape or form.

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31 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

VPN isn't a security measure, this is marketing BS VPN resellers are peddling. All it does is obfuscate your ISP / location.

Actually, some did by encrypting the data from its server to your device, and only that. I work in an office, and we do employ encryption to our clients that wish to log in to the local network from their home through SSL with SHA-256. I think TunnelBear used that as well as PIA.

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31 minutes ago, Chiyawa said:

Actually, some did by encrypting the data from its server to your device, and only that. I work in an office, and we do employ encryption to our clients that wish to log in to the local network from their home through SSL with SHA-256. I think TunnelBear used that as well as PIA.

But that's different than a VPN like PIA or TunnelBear. With an enterprise VPN like an employee would use to access the company network, the data is encrypted between source (user) and destination (company network). Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell with something like PIA the data is only encrypted between you (source) and the VPN provider (not ultimate destination). When the VPN provider forwards the data to the destination, as far as I know it is not encrypted anymore. That can be useful if you want to hide your IP and location, or hide your data from your ISP, but as far as I know once the data gets passed on from the VPN to the destination, it would be the same as if you didn't use a VPN (in regards to encrypted/non-encrypted). That is how I understand it at least, feel free to correct me if I completely misunderstand how services like PIA function. 

 

Edit: Now that I re-read your post, it sounds like you already understand that data is only encrypted between client and VPN and not later on. Either way, I don't think most consumers understand that, all they see is that their data is encrypted.  

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35 minutes ago, Chiyawa said:

Actually, some did by encrypting the data from its server to your device, and only that. I work in an office, and we do employ encryption to our clients that wish to log in to the local network from their home through SSL with SHA-256. I think TunnelBear used that as well as PIA.

An encrypted VPN connection is only encrypted end-to-end (from your device, to the VPN server), so the expectation that ALL your network activity is encrypted is complete BS, and in the general public, it's to access the internet, so all you've done is add a few servers in between you and the servers you're accessing.

 

Having a VPN to access your office network is a completely different use case and if your workplace doesn't encrypt it's VPN traffic properly (all VPN traffic is encrypted), then people in the IT department need to get fired.

 

I'm a sys admin BTW, and while I'm not a network expert, I do know VPNs, and what the general public is sold about security is complete BS. Having a VPN won't stop a malicious exploit on a website, or a virus hidden in a pirated version of Photoshop you got on a torrent site, or stop a data leak, or a 'man-in-the-middle' attack if you're on a compromised network (or if the website at the other end is compromised).

 

For the general public, it's basically security theater.

 

Real reasons to use a VPN are ;

  • obfuscate your traffic from your ISP,
  • unblock geo-loc content,
  • obfuscate your location / ISP,
  • access the network at the other end (work, or accessing your home network),
  • etc ...

 

There's nothing about a VPN that's a protection from hackers. If you need a VPN to protect yourself from a hacker, that means your network is already compromised somewhere.

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4 minutes ago, The_russian said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell with something like PIA the data is only encrypted between you (source) and their server (not ultimate destination). When the VPN provider forwards the data to the destination, as far as I know it is not encrypted anymore. That can be useful if you want to hide your IP and location, or hide your data from your ISP, but as far as I know once the data gets passed on from the VPN to the destination, it would be the same as if you didn't use a VPN (in regards to encrypted/non-encrypted).

This is entirely correct, which is @wkdpaul's point and which I've also railed about when people try to recommend Tor as a magical protection-thingamabob. The moment you log into some websites or use web normally over VPN or Tor or similar, you've already compromised your privacy.

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2 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

This is entirely correct, which is @wkdpaul's point and which I've also railed about when people try to recommend Tor as a magical protection-thingamabob. The moment you log into some websites or use web normally over VPN or Tor or similar, you've already compromised your privacy.

I hate that VPN companies are selling it as a 'hacker-protection-against-credit-card-frauds' ... every time I see a sponsored spot (not on LTT) with those talking points, my blood boils.

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6 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

I hate that VPN companies are selling it as a 'hacker-protection-against-credit-card-frauds' ... every time I see a sponsored spot (not on LTT) with those talking points, my blood boils.

There are a lot of Youtubers who keep perpetrating the myth as well, including people who should know better, since they're running tech-channels themselves.

 

Alas, I am more bothered by the fact that no consumer-protection agency seems to care. I mean, selling VPNs and the likes as protection against hackers is a straight up lie in advertising; you'd think it'd be these agencies' job to do something about that.

 

EDIT: Kind of starting to derail the thread here.

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I don't have much more to contribute to this thread other than this seems like a bit of a strange thing to get angry about. An advertisement is not a review. It is not a sponsored segment. It is not an unbiased critique of a product or service. The fact that you need to clearly delineate which parts of your online content are sponsored is with the express purpose of indicating to viewers that these are not your opinions, they are part of a script which you are being paid to read. Especially with something like a video game, where whether you like it or not is so dependent on personal preference. If Linus decided to accept a sponsorship from a rug company that put asbestos in their rugs, that would be a pretty clear-cut issue. You personally disliking a mobile game, or the way in which the company that made it choses to monetize it, is not damning evidence against LTT. 

 

Also, LTT isn't even a video games channel. Their main focus is on technology. If you dislike RAID so much that every creator who touches it should be excommunicated from the internet, why not bring up the actual video game channels who have done sponsored segments for RAID? JohnTron? Pyrocynical? The AVGN? All of these people have so much more credibility than LTT when it comes to promoting the quality of a video game, and they've been sponsored by RAID with no public outcry. 

 

Finally, I completely agree with  @The_russian that LTT almost seems to walk into these controversies by very actively donating their credibility as an organization to advertisers. They don't need to do that. I'm sure it makes a lot of sponsors happy, but it can lead to problems. But that's a different conversation, for a different thread.

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36 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Normal connection: everyone can intercept the communications (that are usually encrypted with SSL or TLS).

Yes, everyone can intercept SSL connection (even https), but it'll take time to decode or crack the data if the SHA-256 protocol is employed. I'm saying the data is out for everyone to grab.

 

35 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

An encrypted VPN connection is only encrypted end-to-end (from your device, to the VPN server), so the expectation that ALL your network activity is encrypted is complete BS,

Yeah, I knew that. That's why I did mention that the "Yes, VPN can shield your data, but only from their server to your device.".

 

31 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Kind of starting to derail the thread here.

Yeah, it seems so, but still... having a little bit connection about the 'sponsorships'. I mean, LMG do always talk about PIA, which, well, a bit similar to what this thread is all about, having 'misleading' advertising. Of course PIA is true to what it claims, but it made many believed that their Internet connection is totally secured.

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4 minutes ago, bellabichon said:

If you dislike RAID so much that every creator who touches it should be excommunicated from the internet

Ah, an Internet that has been curated to only contain content that appeals to me! Screw world-domination, I have a new plan!

drevil.gif.e8e798aa77e8e21ba95be32e44cd6464.gif

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1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Ah, an Internet that has been curated to only contain content that appeals to me! Screw world-domination, I have a new plan!

drevil.gif.e8e798aa77e8e21ba95be32e44cd6464.gif

Hey, with the whole algorithmically-driven never-see-an-opposing-point-of-view social media hell-scape we find ourselves in, I'd say we're pretty close! :old-tongue:

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2 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

An encrypted VPN connection is only encrypted end-to-end (from your device, to the VPN server), so the expectation that ALL your network activity is encrypted is complete BS, and in the general public, it's to access the internet, so all you've done is add a few servers in between you and the servers you're accessing.

Well if you had to use some sketchy wifi connection (or just in general any wifi that isn't in your control), then VPN does offer you more "security" in that the data is encrypted from the device to the VPN server...it would prevent things like FireSheep from happening to you (or just general snooping of what you are up to).  So yes, VPN's do offer you more protection...just most people who advertise don't make the distinction that it only protects you to a certain extent.  Tom Scott actually has a good video about VPN's

 

I'm actually always surprised that VPN companies actually advertise their service as a way to bypass geolocks for content...I would have assumed that they would eventually get in trouble as they are effectively advertising their service as a way to circumvent copyright

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3 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

I hate that VPN companies are selling it as a 'hacker-protection-against-credit-card-frauds' ... every time I see a sponsored spot (not on LTT) with those talking points, my blood boils.

just for you

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On 1/19/2021 at 5:18 AM, Moonzy said:

and they enjoyed it, from what i can tell anyways, so it's still under the "stuff they actually use" category

Of course I can't know this, but is it that much of a stretch to assume that at least one LMG employee plays or has played RAID?

 

Anyway, unfortunately almost all medium to large companies regularly engage in immoral behavior starting with YouTube so I'm not sure this is any worse than their other sponsor spots... LMG is a for profit organization and as such they're basically forced to engage with other companies whose practices they may not agree with. The only difference here is that RAID has bought enough ad spots across the website that some people started getting annoyed with it specifically while ignoring the core issues with ad supported content in general.

23 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I think logicaldrm isn't in the wrong here, we were told something else by LTT before these, I would've said the same thing as he did before this WAN show

I wonder what we'd find if we mined OP's post history for times they made a claim that turned out to be wrong in the future... 🙄

 

@LogicalDrmhow dare you have opinions without perfect information 😛 

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12 minutes ago, Sauron said:

is it that much of a stretch to assume that at least one LMG employee plays or has played RAID?

I did thought of this while watching the wan show, as mentioned

 

But if that's the case, why did they go with "as long as it's not literal scam, we're fine with it" route?

They did say that someone have played it for a couple hours (or minutes?), but only to make sure it's not a scam

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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21 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

But if that's the case, why did they go with "as long as it's not literal scam, we're fine with it" route?

It's a sponsor spot, not a review... the idea is that they are paid to show you the product, not that they're giving their personal opinion.

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Just now, Sauron said:

It's a sponsor spot, not a review... the idea is that they are paid to show you the product, not that they're giving their personal opinion.

I have nothing against it being a sponsor spot

 

What I have issue is that Linus himself said that he only accept sponsors from product they actually use.

 

I don't have an issue of Linus taking money from a company I hate, I hope they take more of it

Not that I hate RSLegend

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

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On 1/18/2021 at 10:56 PM, akio123008 said:

Well uhm... what? you haven't even seen it?

 

you created possibly the longest post I have ever seen here about something you haven't seen? You didn't think it was a good idea to give it a watch before writing an essay about it?

On 1/19/2021 at 12:30 AM, Middcore said:

You wrote this Iliad-length post about sponsorship on a channel you don't even watch? 

5 hours ago, dizmo said:

So...if you don't watch LTT videos, why do you care?

It doesn't really affect you. It's not like you're invested in LTT in any way.

Just felt like going on a long rant?

Whether or not I watch LTT doesn't matter. I watched the WAN-show so I am responding to what was said on the WAN show.

Like I said in my post, I don't watch the other videos. Linus could have been sponsored by ISIS and I wouldn't have known unless he brought it up on the WAN show, or someone posted it on this forum. 

Two days ago I turned on the WAN show for my morning commute and was met with a ~20 minute long "I'm sorry but not really, it is your fault and we don't give a crap about who sponsors us as long as we get money" message. That's what I responded to because I have had several disagreements with people on this forum before where I say "being sponsored on LTT just means they paid LTT a bunch of money to have Linus repeat some marketing material" to which people have responded "no they carefully vet their sponsors and only recommend actually good things".

 

 

  

23 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

No, I don't. But I could use one from you for quoting me out of context. You just have to make everyone agree that your opinion is the only correct EVEN WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SAME THING.

I am sorry for that. "Apology" was the wrong word choice. I guess I should have said "Hey LogicalDrm, remember when you said LTT had some integrity when choosing sponsors and didn't just pick sponsors like RAID? That post sure aged like milk didn't it?".

 

 

  

23 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

You're free to criticise them all you want but said companies are also free to totally ignore the criticism.

 

Heck EA have been making bank for years on the back of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting LA LA LA.

Of course they are free to ignore criticism if they want. But likewise people are free to keep criticizing them if they want.

I think the problem with saying "it's a for profit company so therefore they can do whatever they want" is that it's a bad excuse to justify any and all actions without responding to any criticism. Saying "they are free to do whatever they want" doesn't contribute anything to the conversation.

 

 

  

21 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

When he said that the entire world wasn't going through a pandemic and beginning to slip into a recession.

 

Things change and I have no issues with Linus protecting his business from folding by taking sponsors he might not have done in previous years.

I don't think the pandemic have had that big of an impact on LTT. If that was the case then Linus wouldn't be flexing on the WAN show about how much money he makes and how many new employees he is able to hire.

This is exactly the thing I meant in my original post about talking out of both sides of his mouth at once.

You can't say "no everything is going really well and we are making loads of money, otherwise we wouldn't be hiring more people" and then when people questioning your choose of sponsors go "but we need the money!"

 

Of course LTT relies on sponsors. Almost half of their revenue comes from sponsors. That's why I think Linus made such a poor argument on the WAN show when he tried to argue that they didn't pick RAID as a sponsor because they are desperate for sponsors, with the evidence being "look at how much people we are employing". 

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14 hours ago, Mao_Zedong01 said:

I think you got sponsor and endorsement confused as the same thing, they are not. Again, the difference is like a TV ad vs a ad featuring the actor/sportsman. I still don't agree with having the host doing the ad segment on set.

The thing is that Linus have said in the past that they only pick sponsors they themselves would recommend. That has clearly changed but Linus never redacted that statement. Also, Linus himself have also used "sponsor" and "endorsement" interchangeably. He does it in the WAN show clip about Monday I linked.

Again, this is clearly not the case anymore but if you have had one policy for years and then suddenly change it while pretending it is still in place then you're being disingenuous and may give your viewers (who you have built a trust with) the wrong interpretation.

 

Let's look at your coffee analogy.

14 hours ago, Mao_Zedong01 said:

It is not up to Linus to determine if a product is "good". On TV if you see an add for Tims but it turns out that the coffee tastes like piss and their doughnuts are hard as rocks, you don't blame the TV network for taking a Tims ad spot. Same here, someone goes to Tims because you "like" the taste of coffee-water or it is their only option. People play RAID because they "like" the experience they offer. Linus is not the judge of all things, you do that.

If the CEO at the company had publicly gone out of their way to declare that they have a rigorous ad policy and will not air any commercial that the CEO personally can stand behind. Not only that, but the Tim's ad was personally presented by the CEO where the CEO says "I drink this and I think it is great coffee, and their doughnuts are so good", then yes I would absolutely expect there to be some backlash against the TV network.

 

People understand that ads on bollocks and each ad is a clear cut segment of its own with no inherent relation to the TV network.

The ads on LTT on the other hand, are tightly integrated into the content itself, the ads are presented by the CEO of the channel itself, and the CEO has on multiple occasions said that their policy is that they view sponsors as endorsements and therefore will not do sponsor spots for anything they wouldn't personally use or recommend. Hell, they don't even want to call the ads in their videos "ads", they call them "sponsor segments".

 

If the LTT channel behaved like a TV station then they would get treated as a TV station. As long as they behave differently they will also get treated differently.

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

I don't watch the other videos. 

I don't care you don't watch the videos. I don't watch LTT that often myself either.

 

My point was, if you're going to write this insane rant about it, at least take the time to have a look at this specific video. I'm not saying you should not care about the issue because you don't watch LTT, or that you should start watching them, I'm just saying watching this specific video would have to be part of your research.

 

Sure there isn't that much to see about the video that would change your opinion in this specific case, but that's not necessarily always true, so when you go on a rant like this saying basically "I haven't even watched what I'm talking about" really doesn't make your post more credible. In fact quite the opposite. 

 

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On 1/19/2021 at 1:32 AM, Master Disaster said:

Fun fact: LMG is a business & Linus personally owes us nothing. His "non apology" was a non apology because he has nothing to apologise for, the second he allows the consumers who literally give him nothing to dictate what he can and cannot do with his business is when LMG dies and over 20 people end up on unemployment.

 

See, I agree with your main point, that he has nothing to apologize for...he took a sponsor that fits whatever criteria he has..that's business.  The PROBLEM is..he then did do the rather meely mouthed half non apology thing. THAT opens him up to valid criticism. I think @LAwLz is a bit obsessive on this paticular topic, but it's their bugbear to hunt, and none of their points are wrong. 

 

People whined about the commercial. Rather than shrugging and rolling around in the money he got, Linus had to try to justify it and came off the worse for doing so.

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1 hour ago, akio123008 said:

I don't care you don't watch the videos. I don't watch LTT that often myself either.

 

My point was, if you're going to write this insane rant about it, at least take the time to have a look at this specific video. I'm not saying you should not care about the issue because you don't watch LTT, or that you should start watching them, I'm just saying watching this specific video would have to be part of your research.

 

Sure there isn't that much to see about the video that would change your opinion in this specific case, but that's not necessarily always true, so when you go on a rant like this saying basically "I haven't even watched what I'm talking about" really doesn't make your post more credible. In fact quite the opposite. 

But my issues with the RAID sponsorship isn't RAID or the sponsorship. Maybe I didn't make myself clear since the post became quite long, but I have no problem with Linus being sponsored by RAID.

 

If I were to summarize my post then my issues would be:

  1. It seems to me like Linus tried to make an apology but never really apologized.
     
  2. If you're going to apologize then don't blame or antagonize your viewers. Don't go on Twitter and ask "why are people mad" only to then respond to criticism with statements along the lines of "I don't care" and "none of you have changed my mind". 
     
  3. Stop flip flopping between "we make loads of money already, we didn't pick RAID because we are desperate, we didn't even get paid that much by them" only to then justify whichever the "issues of the month" is by saying "we have to make money guys, please stop being mad at us for just trying to make money".
     
  4. Stop trying to shift the blame to someone else, either your viewers or someone else at the company. When you are the CEO and presenter, you take responsibility even if it's one of your employees fault. Imagine how bad it would look if Bob Swan went on stage at CES and went "look, stop being mad at me for our bad processors, we should all blame the engineers working at out fabs instead, because it's not my fault they screwed up". If you wanna be a CEO then start acting like one, instead of just posing with it on Twitter.
     
  5. If your policy about ads has changed from "we only sponsor products we actually use, like or feel comfortable with recommending" to "we will take any sponsor that isn't a literal scam" then make that clear to your viewers. Don't change stance behind the scenes without informing the users who you have built up a trust with over the years.
     
  6. Stop blaming your users because you have information they don't. An example of this is that you tried to blame your viewers for not knowing that when you in a video say "I did X" it might be that you are reading a script written by someone else who did something. Your viewers have no possible way of knowing that "I" in that sentence doesn't refer to the person hosting the video but rather someone else at the company. This is not the first time Linus has done similar victim blaming either. He also did it when they started making "product showcases" where he blamed people that were upset that it was just one giant ad because "well it was labeled a product showcase so you should have known that it was essentially an ad where I just read a script provided by the manufacturer and I didn't really mean anything I said". The problem was that he had never explained what a "product showcase" was. He just posted it and expected everyone to fully understand the rules and process of making a "product showcase".
     
  7. Stop spreading misinformation like what you did with World of Warships. I don't play the game and I have barely even heard it, but 2 minutes on Google showed me that Linus completely misinterpreted the situation and it comes off as a bad attempt to distract people from the issue. "Yeah you're mad at me but hey everyone, let's talk about something bad someone else have done instead! Yeah, let's be mad at them instead of me or RAID!" is what I heard during that segment.
     
  8. Stop playing the victim. You said that you can't be responsible for what your sponsors do, but you absolutely can. You CHOOSE which companies sponsor you. You CHOOSE which products to present and endorse to your viewers. Either you vet your sponsors carefully, in which case you do get blamed if you pick a bad sponsor, or you make it clear that essentially anyone can sponsor you and the words you say during the sponsor segments might not be true or at the very least misleading.
     
  9. The sponsor spot is part of the content you put out. If you don't want comments about the company or product that sponsored your video then you kinda need to stop having sponsors completely. As long as you keep inserting sponsor segments into your videos they will be part of the video which people can and will comment about and overall the quality of the video might be brought down because of it. 

 

 

  

13 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

See, I agree with your main point, that he has nothing to apologize for...he took a sponsor that fits whatever criteria he has..that's business.  The PROBLEM is..he then did do the rather meely mouthed half non apology thing. THAT opens him up to valid criticism. I think @LAwLz is a bit obsessive on this paticular topic, but it's their bugbear to hunt, and none of their points are wrong. 

 

People whined about the commercial. Rather than shrugging and rolling around in the money he got, Linus had to try to justify it and came off the worse for doing so.

That is exactly my point. Well put.

If Linus hadn't gone on for like 20 minutes trying to justify it on the WAN show then I would not have cared at all. I am not trying to comment on whether or not the ad for RAID was good, bad, justified, whatever (that's why it doesn't matter that I saw the ad or not). I am commenting on how Linus handled the situation on the WAN show and how he handles sponsors in general.

I am trying to give suggestions and advice on how to handle the situation because this is not the first time he has ended up getting flamed from his viewers for how he handles ads on his channel. I am also sad to see how he seems to have lost any kind of integrity he might have once had.

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18 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am also sad to see how he seems to have lost any kind of integrity he might have once had.

See, this is that bugbear I mentioned. 🙂 That's a bit on the extreeme side as far as coments go. Though I guess it depends on where the integrity point you're making lays:

 

If it's this game as a sponsor.. I have no problems with it. As he and you said, it's not a scam...just not a really a game, but it's honest about it. We, the marketplaces, has said "we're ok with these things existing." So I don't have any issues with LMG..or the other stuff I watch that have been sponsered by them...taking their ad money.

 

If it's the trying to make claims about trying to draw the very fine line of "oh yeah they're bad, but not that bad, but I'm on your side my followers, but I'm right etc."....well yeah, you have a point.

 

(I'll grant my "It's legal, so it's fine" position is rather mercurial and fraught with issues, but then it's a definite position...not a Twister® game.)

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Why are people so upset that LMG may not be using the products they put on their ads?
Raid Shadow Legends:
Is it killing people? No.
Is it scamming people? No.
Is it operating illegally? No. 
Seems fine by me. Sure it has microtransaction but even that that is fine by me. 
You don't like something doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you. They are not saying it's the best game ever. They are just saying the talking points given to them just like another ad spot. 

Have you seen Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo advertising for KFC? Do you think they'll ever eat KFC?

Who cares? In the end it's just an ad, get over it in your tiny world. 

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