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Major hedge fund advises Intel to outsource CPU manufacturing

A major investor group is suggesting Intel should ditch it's own manufacturing capacity and outsource it to reduce loses.

 

Quote

Activist hedge fund "Third Point" has taken a stake of nearly $1 billion in Intel and called on the chipmaker to consider shedding its manufacturing operations, throwing a core part of its strategy into question.

 

In the letter, Mr Loeb said that Intel was “once the gold standard for innovative microprocessor manufacturing” but had fallen behind manufacturing competitors in East Asia such as TSMC and Samsung.

Bob Swan, its chief executive, has indicated that he will decide early next year whether Intel should outsource a significant part of its most advanced manufacturing, or even get out of leading-edge production altogether, after a series of slips.

 

 

The company in July revealed it had hit a new hurdle in trying to move to the next generation of manufacturing technology, where the features on chips are reduced to a width of only 7 nanometres.

That compounded a series of missteps that helped cement the lead seized by TSMC, the Taiwanese chip company that manufacturers semiconductors on behalf of many of the world’s biggest chip designers, including Nvidia, Qualcomm and AMD.

 

“Intel welcomes input from all investors regarding enhanced shareholder value,” the company said in a statement. “In that spirit, we look forward to engaging with Third Point on their ideas towards that goal.”

 

This is the second time this year Intel is pushed to reconsider its IC manufacturing capacity, but this one calls for a much more affirmative action, almost going fab-less.

 

Sources

 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/activist-hedge-fund-advises-intel-to-outsource-cpu-manufacturing/

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Don’t think the US has many other capable fabs if Intel phases them out. Suppose Intel could spin off their fabs into their own business though and potentially attract new talent in the process, but overcoming TSMC’s lead will still be challenging. 

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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This is truly hilarious. Maybe Intel can sell their fabs and help the shortage right now

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

This is truly hilarious. Maybe Intel can sell their fabs and help the shortage right now

But, um, Intel using their facilities designed to produce CPUs in order to produce CPUs is surely helping quite a lot with the shortage of CPUs?

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pythonmegapixel

into tech, public transport and architecture // amateur programmer // youtuber // beginner photographer

Thanks for reading all this by the way!

By the way, my desktop is a docked laptop. Get over it, No seriously, I have an exterrnal monitor, keyboard, mouse, headset, ethernet and cooling fans all connected. Using it feels no different to a desktop, it works for several hours if the power goes out, and disconnecting just a few cables gives me something I can take on the go. There's enough power for all games I play and it even copes with basic (and some not-so-basic) video editing. Give it a go - you might just love it.

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8 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

But, um, Intel using their facilities designed to produce CPUs in order to produce CPUs is surely helping quite a lot with the shortage of CPUs?

Not necessarily considering they are having issues which led to this scenario. 

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Those "investors" buying $1B of Intel so they can suggest what Intel should do... that's some serious cash there, but based on today's market cap, that's about 0.5% of Intel they control. Unless they can persuade other larger investors that is the right thing to do, doubt it'll go anywhere. I have to wonder if it is a wider manipulation of some kind. They may be able to gain elsewhere by these moves. 

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38 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

This is truly hilarious. Maybe Intel can sell their fabs and help the shortage right now

 

Nope. TSMC is maxed out right now. All intel getting rid of their fabs would do is remove every intel CPU from the market, and intel still ships the highest volume of CPU's in the world. There simply isn;t the global production capacity to supply the world without intels fabs. Not even remotely close.

 

Now Intel potentially buying TSMC process use licences and making stuff on those nodes in their own fabs, that might work, depending on the difficulty of changeover and weather TSMC would be willing to sell at a workable price.

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The problem would be to outsource to where?  There isn't that kind of capacity to come online for Intel.   Fabs are very expensive which is why they are run pretty much maxed out all of the time.  If you have a fab at 50% capacity you either are losing money hand over fist or you are selling the parts you are making for a lot more than they cost to make to cover the idle capacity. 

 

Intel I think can come back but they got very political internally and read too much of their PR posts.  They never thought anyone would catch them.   They were so busy flexing in the mirror admiring how big they were they didn't lift and ignored the guy in the corner pumping iron like crazy.  Now they are internally trying to lay blame and catch up. 

 

They might be able to outsource a little of the capacity but their best bet is to license the technology but I bet they also would need to upgrade their fab tooling.  Figure 12 weeks to 1 year lead time depending on which tool you need.  You then need to set up the recipes and learn to use the tools and develop the processes.   It all takes a lot of time. 

 

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1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

 

 

Now Intel potentially buying TSMC process use licences and making stuff on those nodes in their own fabs, that might work, depending on the difficulty of changeover and weather TSMC would be willing to sell at a workable price.

^^^ That's more what I was thinking they would do. Rent out or come to an agreement to still use their fabs and make money

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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4 hours ago, porina said:

Those "investors" buying $1B of Intel so they can suggest what Intel should do... that's some serious cash there, but based on today's market cap, that's about 0.5% of Intel they control. Unless they can persuade other larger investors that is the right thing to do, doubt it'll go anywhere. I have to wonder if it is a wider manipulation of some kind. They may be able to gain elsewhere by these moves. 

Also a technology company like Intel listening to investors and making strategic decisions at their request is basically the day they start dying. Like some hedge fund execs are actually going to know better than Intel, lol.

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6 hours ago, DuckDodgers said:

A major investor group is suggesting Intel should ditch it's own manufacturing capacity and outsource it to reduce loses.

 

Cause that worked SO well for AMD. Oh wait, Global Foundries doesn't even have a 10nm fab.

 

Quote

 

This is the second time this year Intel is pushed to reconsider its IC manufacturing capacity, but this one calls for a much more affirmative action, almost going fab-less.

 

Sources

 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/activist-hedge-fund-advises-intel-to-outsource-cpu-manufacturing/

I don't think buying and then subsequently divesting the FPGA business is a good idea. This is the same kind of thing that causes acquired business to sink. FPGA's are useful, but the investors likely haven't a clue about how the FPGA business is very useful for replacing legacy chips in devices that are no longer manufactured and the more high-end FPGA's can actually be used to knock the bugs out of ASIC designs. If Intel should divest anything, it should divest all the non-core software (eg it's acquisition of McAfee was absolutely useless, same with Telmap.) There might have been a strategical reason for acquiring these, but ultimately they don't benefit their core chip business.

 

Like if you look at the chain of acquisitions, it looks like they were investing in tech to make smart windows/car windscreens/AR glasses. Where is this tech now?

 

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6 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Not necessarily considering they are having issues which led to this scenario. 

Right but dumping the entirety of Intel's output on to TSMC and shutting down Intels fabs isn't going to help anyone.

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16 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Cause that worked SO well for AMD. Oh wait, Global Foundries doesn't even have a 10nm fab.

My understanding is that AMD were basically forced to sell their fabs off, it was either that or bankruptcy.

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10 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

My understanding is that AMD were basically forced to sell their fabs off, it was either that or bankruptcy.

Samsung and TSMC are already working on 3 nanometer fabs while Intel is trying to solve their 7nm problems. Intel might be better off doing an AMD and design rather than fabricate. After all, a significant portion of their revenue stream comes from datacenter orientated products such as memory (optane/nand flash 👀) and networking. However, I'm far from an expert so take my work with a grain of salt. 

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2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Also a technology company like Intel listening to investors and making strategic decisions at their request is basically the day they start dying. Like some hedge fund execs are actually going to know better than Intel, lol.

Normally I'd 100% agree with you but looking back at Intel's recent business choices I'm not convinced the bosses at Intel are actually the best people for the job. I mean, I'm definitely not saying hedge fund managers know better than the current bosses but I reckon there are more than likely people working at Intel right now who would be beter suited to lead them forward. The bean counters are at the helm.

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58 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Normally I'd 100% agree with you but looking back at Intel's recent business choices I'm not convinced the bosses at Intel are actually the best people for the job. I mean, I'm definitely not saying hedge fund managers know better than the current bosses but I reckon there are more than likely people working at Intel right now who would be beter suited to lead them forward. The bean counters are at the helm.

A hedge fund wants to make money which means they'll kill the cow for the meat short term instead of getting milk from it in long term.  It's pretty much their default suggestion of "fire sale everything".

 

The dude does have good points though.  Something to the effect of "the management was getting paid handsomely to fall behind the competition" was like "true that!".  From personal experience I don't have any confidence in the leadership.  Bunch of old bean counters who don't understand the tech they're in charge of.  I think their goal was to make the revenue grow on paper but not bother fixing any of the underlying things that generate that revenue.  "shuffling numbers" around instead of developing tech.

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If I were a serious investor in Intel (which, I can assure you, I'll never be for lack of funds :P ) I'd shuffle off all management up to several layers deep and get some qualified engineers in charge. There'll be bean-counters left for sure, but strictly confined to the bean-counting dept!

 

But then, what do I know :P

"You don't need eyes to see, you need vision"

 

(Faithless, 'Reverence' from the 1996 Reverence album)

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I'm pretty sure Intel is not at a loss at the moment.

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6 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

A hedge fund wants to make money which means they'll kill the cow for the meat short term instead of getting milk from it in long term.  It's pretty much their default suggestion of "fire sale everything".

 

The dude does have good points though.  Something to the effect of "the management was getting paid handsomely to fall behind the competition" was like "true that!".  From personal experience I don't have any confidence in the leadership.  Bunch of old bean counters who don't understand the tech they're in charge of.  I think their goal was to make the revenue grow on paper but not bother fixing any of the underlying things that generate that revenue.  "shuffling numbers" around instead of developing tech.

I think one problem with this mindset though is that people just assume Intel's primary focus is on processors.  Don't get me wrong, I do think there was a lot of complacency there...although I think it's also because they were focusing on not messing up their server line-up as well.

 

e.g. They created optane.  Their stuff also just works (compatibility wise...AMD has made strides but still with intel, plugging in a new component you know it will just work).

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

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15 hours ago, BuckGup said:

This is truly hilarious. Maybe Intel can sell their fabs and help the shortage right now

None of them are even 7nm yet afaik, which is where the shortage is.

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I don't think Intel should follow the advice of hedge funds/activist investors/vulture capitalist firms.
Going fabless completely is a bad idea at this point, especially given that Intel is probably US semiconductor firm with the financial capability to compete with TSMC and Samsung.


Rather I think the investors should force a management shake up.
For a tech/semiconductor company, having a bean counter at the top is a bad idea.
Get engineers with good acumen to be at the top, have a solid roadmap for the future and push for fulfillment of the target objectives in the roadmap.

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1 hour ago, CircleTech said:

*starts producing CPUs for AMD*

That wouldn't necessarily be a bad play, I mean, Samsung used to make the Apple A series chips until the A7 (and kinda the A9)

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10 hours ago, inteli7.Ti said:

Samsung and TSMC are already working on 3 nanometer fabs while Intel is trying to solve their 7nm problems. 

On this specific point, working on one generation is not exclusive of working on future generations. Intel are working on both 10nm and 7nm at the same time, obviously at different points in their lifespan. No doubt they're also thinking ahead to the generation beyond that to some degree.

 

Still, if we were to try to compare relative offerings, Intel are probably 1+ nodes behind. TSMC has 5nm in general production, whereas Intel are still offering limited 10nm volume. I don't recall the details but don't expect to see 7nm this year. 

 

 

 

Back onto the thread question, what would happen if Intel were to sell off their fabs in some way? Short term, no difference. Nothing changes quickly in semiconductors, which have long design cycles.

 

So let's assume Intel sold off their fabs, what would happen?

1, sell/spin off to run as a new fab company. Kinda like what AMD did with GoFlo. Seems a pointless exercise, other than possibly reducing management overhead a little. Contracts would be put in place to ensure production of current and near future products until plans are made to get them made elsewhere. New fab would have to finance improvements themselves, and that is not cheap. I don't think things would get magically more cost effective by doing this, and they'll stagnate just like GoFlo.

2, sell to existing fab company, like Samsung or TSMC. I'm not intimate in the details of actual processes, but chances are, the processes are different enough you couldn't, for example, take the TSMC 7nm recipe and just apply it to Intel fabs. Intel sauce is different from TSMC sauce on these silicon pizzas. It would take time and expense to refit them. Probably not economic to do it to older nodes, and it will take time to make them cutting edge nodes. Any benefit from this could be years away.

 

So either way I can't see either option really helping Intel in the short term, on the timescale of 3+ years maybe an existing fab could convert them into something. If Intel were to significantly compete for near leading edge processes from others, it'll push up pricing both on Intel and whoever else would be trying to use them.

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1 hour ago, CircleTech said:

*starts producing CPUs for AMD*

My expectation is that if Intel were forced to go fabless, the ex-Intel fabs would no longer innovate and just continue to produce chips on 14nm until there's no demand for them. It's not like every chip desires 5nm. It's likely that storage tech can use older processes longer because as it shrinks, the durability is reduced.

 

Like Intel's main problem is that it tried to squeeze too much out of 14nm while simultaneously not innovating. I don't know how it became that way, but I assume that the tick-tock-tock became tick-tock-tock-tock-tock while 10nm continued to not work. By the time anything gets released at 10nm, the competition is will be on 5nm, and 200%-400% more transistor density. (In theory)

 

My theory is that this was a bean-counter decision, and not an engineering one. That desire to squeeze more out of 14nm resulted in falling behind. Perhaps naively assuming AMD would continue to produce only rubbish-tier parts that couldn't compete with their high end parts.

 

But either way. "Hedge funds" or "Venture capital" companies destroy companies they invest in for short term profits, and Intel would be better off ignoring them. Pretty much the pattern is: take on debt and cutting the company up into pieces so they can cash out, and ultimately screw the remaining company into bankruptcy.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, porina said:

On this specific point, working on one generation is not exclusive of working on future generations. Intel are working on both 10nm and 7nm at the same time, obviously at different points in their lifespan. No doubt they're also thinking ahead to the generation beyond that to some degree.

 

Still, if we were to try to compare relative offerings, Intel are probably 1+ nodes behind. TSMC has 5nm in general production, whereas Intel are still offering limited 10nm volume. I don't recall the details but don't expect to see 7nm this year. 

 

 

 

Back onto the thread question, what would happen if Intel were to sell off their fabs in some way? Short term, no difference. Nothing changes quickly in semiconductors, which have long design cycles.

 

So let's assume Intel sold off their fabs, what would happen?

1, sell/spin off to run as a new fab company. Kinda like what AMD did with GoFlo. Seems a pointless exercise, other than possibly reducing management overhead a little. Contracts would be put in place to ensure production of current and near future products until plans are made to get them made elsewhere. New fab would have to finance improvements themselves, and that is not cheap. I don't think things would get magically more cost effective by doing this, and they'll stagnate just like GoFlo.

2, sell to existing fab company, like Samsung or TSMC. I'm not intimate in the details of actual processes, but chances are, the processes are different enough you couldn't, for example, take the TSMC 7nm recipe and just apply it to Intel fabs. Intel sauce is different from TSMC sauce on these silicon pizzas. It would take time and expense to refit them. Probably not economic to do it to older nodes, and it will take time to make them cutting edge nodes. Any benefit from this could be years away.

 

So either way I can't see either option really helping Intel in the short term, on the timescale of 3+ years maybe an existing fab could convert them into something. If Intel were to significantly compete for near leading edge processes from others, it'll push up pricing both on Intel and whoever else would be trying to use them.

What would probably end up happening is, whoever bought Intel's Fabs would end up running Intel CPUs until the end of a cycle before they could refit for other processes. Its not like Intel wouldn't still need silicon and from an economical PoV it would make little sense to shut down an operating fab to refit it while it still has a customer that is using it in its current state.

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