The Asus Tuf non-OC RTX 3080 isn't being made anymore

[Delicieuxz]

The Asus Tuf has been the most popular choice of RTX 3000-series GPUs due to its use of MLCC caps instead of SP-caps for filtering power for the GPU, which has been shown to give it good stability compared to some other cards. Between the plain Tuf and the Tuf-OC, the difference is... nothing, really. Just a tiny factory OC that I think wouldn't be perceptible in experienced performance, and that GPU-boost on the plain Tuf will automatically exceed on its own anyway. That is to say that there is no performance reason to pay more for an Asus Tuf OC instead of the base Tuf.

 

Yesterday, I was at a retailer to check what's going on with a back-order I made over 2 months and 1 week ago, and was told that the Asus Tuf non-OC which I'd back-ordered is no longer being produced, and so I need to change my order to another item. How long it hasn't been produced, I don't know. But I suspect that an order made within a few days after the 3080 released should have been fulfilled by now even with the shortages. I guess the store thought-so too, because they moved me to the very front of the wait-list for the OC version.

 

So, the non-OC isn't being made anymore. But the price of the OC version has also increased since it launched - at least at the retailer I was at. And the sales clerk said I'd have to pay the difference for the current price of the Tuf-OC 3080 to be moved to that wait-list. However, I was a Karen and asked to speak to the manager, and though I didn't get moved to the OC version for free (which is what I think should have happened, as that would be the retailer doing what they can to honour the purchase-price agreement we made, and which they took and got to make-use of my money for over 2 months for), I did get the OC version price-matched to its original, cheaper, release price. And, as I said, I was moved to the front of the wait-list for the OC version.

 

 

I was 9th in line at that retail store when I placed my order, and there weren't enough of the Tuf RTX 3080 to go around to even fulfill my order. I think that suggests that the MSRP version of the 3080 was basically a ruse and a charade - a technical fulfillment by Asus of an expectation or claim that MSRP cards would be available, when only a tiny number were made and then discontinued with the next-cheapest option having its price increase when it was.

 

When the 3000-series released, some people said this would happen. And they were right in their prediction.

[Jurrunio]

Asus designed a better product than supposed competitors (i.e. the cheaper custom cards), ofc they tried to take advantage of that and increase price.

[Delicieuxz]

33 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Asus designed a better product than supposed competitors (i.e. the cheaper custom cards), ofc they tried to take advantage of that and increase price.

Which they did after removing the non-OC and MSRP-priced base version from sale to push people towards paying for a more expensive version which offers nothing over the base MSRP-priced version, while mostly-pointlessly making an MSRP version for sale in such small quantities that people couldn't expect to be able to get one at all, ever - suggesting that the MSRP version was a planned PR and propaganda move as various people predicted it was going to be.

 

When Intel had no competition, they could get away with doing nothing new for years while charging people more each next year. Memory manufacturers can make more money by having an 'accident' that cuts memory supplies and ramps-up prices. But a lot of people find 'they can make more money through underhanded moves, so of course they will' arguments to be not particularly tasteful or justifying.

[Jurrunio]

1 hour ago, Delicieuxz said:

which offers nothing over the base MSRP-priced version

that is strictly speaking not true. Cards without factory OC are often sold that way because at least from the beginning, there are some GPUs that are completely incapable of any overclocking. They could put them onto their cheapest models, but those are often criticized for their coolers and dont sell so well. As a result brands start putting them under cooler and PCBs of premium models, but still without factory OC so they would be stable. This is not new, EVGA 10 series FTW DT cards for example.

 

2 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

Just a tiny factory OC that I think wouldn't be perceptible in experienced performance,

tiny but it's still there, especially with 3080 already in the "boost too high and crash at stock" incident. Yes, even the TUF cards are not immune.

 

2 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

is no longer being produced

I can still find it on different sites, need another week or two to determine whether it's really no longer produced or you just got a canned response (since even asking Asus is usually futile, companies do not actively disclose such information and typcially dont answer even when asked).

 

1 hour ago, Delicieuxz said:

suggesting that the MSRP version was a planned PR and propaganda move as various people predicted it was going to be.

This is not planned beforehand (i.e. before launch), no one knew 3080s will crash at stock settings in such numbers. You would expect Nvidia (which does not benefit from this at all) to try catch the issue actively and other brands will improve their designs to not have their piece of the cake taken away.

 

1 hour ago, Delicieuxz said:

When Intel had no competition, they could get away with doing nothing new for years while charging people more each next year. Memory manufacturers can make more money by having an 'accident' that cuts memory supplies and ramps-up prices. But a lot of people find 'they can make more money through underhanded moves, so of course they will' arguments to be not particularly tasteful or justifying.

Asus has competition here, now that Nvidia fixed the crashes and worse models are usable again. This is not a monopoly unlike Intel v.s. AMD, when AMD is so far behind. Not like the memory manufacturers that can set fire to their factories, because Nvidia will simply redirect their shipment to Asus to someone else when literally every company wants more RTX 3080. All this hurts are people who target 1 specific model of RTX 3080. In other words, they willingly removed competition and then complain about lack of competition.

[Delicieuxz]

1 hour ago, Jurrunio said:

that is strictly speaking not true. Cards without factory OC are often sold that way because at least from the beginning, there are some GPUs that are completely incapable of any overclocking. They could put them onto their cheapest models, but those are often criticized for their coolers and dont sell so well. As a result brands start putting them under cooler and PCBs of premium models, but still without factory OC so they would be stable. This is not new, EVGA 10 series FTW DT cards for example.

There is no binning with the Tuf and the Tuf OC, the OC Tuf is simply the plain Tuf with a factory OC that is automatically surpassed on the non-OC Tuf by GPU-boost anyway. So, in this case, there really is nothing extra received by buying the OC instead of the plain Tuf. There was a price-premium for getting nothing over the base model. And now that the base model is removed, the price-premium is there while still getting the exact same thing as the base model.

 

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I can still find it on different sites, need another week or two to determine whether it's really no longer produced or you just got a canned response (since even asking Asus is usually futile, companies do not actively disclose such information and typcially dont answer even when asked).

I was told the store has been notified that the non-OC Tuf 3080 is no longer being produced, and so they have to contact everyone on the wait-list and ask them to either switch to another model or request a refund. I don't know if that claim is correct, but the store did put me to the front of the wait-list for the OC model, and also price-matched what the OC model was priced as when it first released.

 

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This is not planned beforehand (i.e. before launch), no one knew 3080s will crash at stock settings in such numbers. You would expect Nvidia (which does not benefit from this at all) to try catch the issue actively and other brands will improve their designs to not have their piece of the cake taken away.

My comment isn't about 3000-series GPUs cards crashing. When I said "planned PR and propaganda move", I was referring to the choice to make available extremely-limited numbers of MSRP cards and then removing that model to push people towards more expensive models. That move isn't done to benefit Nvidia, but to benefit the AIB partners who make more money from their non-MSRP models.

 

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Asus has competition here, now that Nvidia fixed the crashes and worse models are usable again. This is not a monopoly unlike Intel v.s. AMD, when AMD is so far behind. Not like the memory manufacturers that can set fire to their factories, because Nvidia will simply redirect their shipment to Asus to someone else when literally every company wants more RTX 3080. All this hurts are people who target 1 specific model of RTX 3080. In other words, they willingly removed competition and then complain about lack of competition.

The aspect of those comments which was being related to is the method of making additional money being exploitation and manipulation. I was not comparing their markets.

 

The Asus brand already has the PR that makes it desirable. By taking away the MSRP card, they aren't going to force everyone to buy Gigabyte Eagle 3080s (which is the only 3080 I see still listed for the MSRP price) - a card that was hit with stability issues and uses all SP-caps and no MLCC. Those who were waiting for a Tuf because they were aware of the crashing are likely to go for a Tuf OC because it has the PR and reputation, which is a powerful effect. And the issue was fixed by lowering GPU-boost targets on cards which were having stability issues. People are going to want to avoid a solution that compromises their performance.

 

By removing MSRP models, AIB partners will make more profit for themselves. Nvidia isn't going to force them to sell a certain model that is at a lower cost - Nvidia would either have to apply those terms to all AIB partners equally or would have to negotiate with specific AIBs for that. I think that Nvidia would rather be hands-off on that. And given that Nvidia hasn't been concerned about inflated prices in the past but has been an eager culprit behind them, I don't see them taking a moral stand over AIBs raising their minimum prices by $30 or so (which adds-up a lot for AIBs).

 

Was this planned - to temporarily have non-OC models available to satisfy MSRP expectations, and then phase them out while price-hiking the remaining cheapest option? I think likely (as I said, people predicted it would be done). But does it have anything to do with the stability issues? No, that is a separate matter. My comment about the stability and non-OC vs OC is explaining my preference to stick with a Tuf card (though, I ordered mine before the stability issues were being reported), and why there's no good reason to pay for anything more than the base model between those options.

[Jurrunio]

43 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

There is no binning with the Tuf and the Tuf OC

There is. Not the aggressive one like on LN2 cards which you only get top bin GPUs on those models (meant for smashing records after all), but they still have to guarantee stability. Nvidia only guarantees up to the reference clock speeds and not 1MHz more after all, anything more is up to the manufacturer. Besides, it will be more convincing if you at least give a reason rather than just reiterate the same thing.

 

43 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

My comment isn't about 3000-series GPUs cards crashing. When I said "planned PR and propaganda move", I was referring to the choice to make available extremely-limited numbers of MSRP cards and then removing that model to push people towards more expensive models. That move isn't done to benefit Nvidia, but to benefit the AIB partners who make more money from their non-MSRP models.

 

The aspect of those comments which was being related to is the method of making additional money being exploitation and manipulation. I was not comparing their markets.

 

The Asus brand already has the PR that makes it desirable. By taking away the MSRP card, they aren't going to force everyone to buy Gigabyte Eagle 3080s (which is the only 3080 I see still listed for the MSRP price). Those who were waiting for a Tuf because they were aware of the crashing are likely to go for a Tuf OC because it has the PR and reputation, which is a powerful effect. And the issue was fixed by down-clocking on cards which were having stability issues. People are going to want to avoid a solution that compromises their performance.

 

By removing MSRP models, AIB partners will make more profit for themselves. Nvidia isn't going to force them to sell a certain model that is at a lower cost - Nvidia would either have to apply those terms to all AIB partners equally or would have to negotiate with specific AIBs for that. Given that Nvidia hasn't been concerned about inflated prices in the past but has been an eager culprit behind them, I don't see them taking a moral stand over AIBs raising their minimum prices by $30 or so (which adds-up a lot for AIBs).

 

Was this planned? Likely. Does it have anything to do with the stability issues? No, that is a separate matter. My comment about the stability and non-OC vs OC is explaining my preference to stick with a Tuf card, and why there's no good reason to pay for anything more than the base model between those options.

There is this piece

so Nvidia could be the one to blame here, not the partners. How the other brands managed to keep the MSRP models? Idk, but with supposedly the best lineup overall out there and the largest partner of Nvidia for gaming cards, it's unsurprising that Asus made the first move.

 

[Delicieuxz]

1 hour ago, Jurrunio said:

There is. Not the aggressive one like on LN2 cards which you only get top bin GPUs on those models (meant for smashing records after all), but they still have to guarantee stability. Nvidia only guarantees up to the reference clock speeds and not 1MHz more after all, anything more is up to the manufacturer. Besides, it will be more convincing if you at least give a reason rather than just reiterate the same thing.

The fact that there is no longer any model lower than the OC Tuf model tells you that there isn't binning on them because every single chip Asus sells performs at-least at the Tuf OC spec, which is their minimum performance tier. And GPU-boost pushes all the Tuf and Tuf-OC cards past the Tuf OC spec.

 

Asus' ROG and Strix models are binned for higher performance. But there is no binning done between the Tuf and Tuf OC models - the GPUs for either are taken from the same pile. So, a Tuf OC is an identical card to the Tuf non-OC, just with a factory OC added which is just marketing-cosmetics because every non-OC and OC model will exceed the OC spec automatically due to GPU-boost.

 

Similarly, it's been said that the only model which EVGA bins chips for is their Kingpin series, while all the lower models aren't binned between them. The Black, XC3, and FTW3 models, for example, aren't binned between those models.

 

 

Quote

There is this piece

so Nvidia could be the one to blame here, not the partners. How the other brands managed to keep the MSRP models? Idk, but with supposedly the best lineup overall out there and the largest partner of Nvidia for gaming cards, it's unsurprising that Asus made the first move.

The only one I see still at MSRP in Canada is the Gigabyte Eagle - which has all SP-caps and I think has the lowest maximum power-target (or, at least it's lower than the FE).

[Mark Kaine]

29 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The only one I see still at MSRP in Canada is the Gigabyte Eagle - which has all SP-caps and I think has the lowest maximum power-target (or, at least it's lower than the FE)

Just out of curiosity and because I'll get that card, what caps does the EVGA 3070 FTW3 ULTRA use and are they good or bad ones? 

[Delicieuxz]

10 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Just out of curiosity and because I'll get that card, what caps does the EVGA 3070 FTW3 ULTRA use and are they good or bad ones? 

The FTW3 has 4 SP-caps (also less-accurately referred to as POSCAPs) and 2 MLC-cap arrays. EVGA made a press release about it:

 

https://forums.evga.com/Message-about-EVGA-GeForce-RTX-3080-POSCAPs-m3095238.aspx

 

The MLC arrays (each array has 10 small MLC caps in it) have been shown to deliver better stability - but to a point. Having more beyond the point that secures stability isn't necessarily useful.

[Mark Kaine]

I see, thanks! 

 

edit: eh, that's the 3080 but I think 3070 uses at least a similar layout? 

 

(3070) 

 

 

(3080) 

 

Tho I'm glad the backplate of the 3070 doesn't have that huge opening, I really hate that seems a pain to keep clean... 

 

(3070 backplate) 

 

 

sorry for off topic but I was really curious

[Delicieuxz]

28 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I see, thanks! 

 

edit: eh, that's the 3080 but I think 3070 uses at least a similar layout? 

 

Tho I'm glad the backplate of the 3070 doesn't have that huge opening, I really hate that seems a pain to keep clean... 

I don't know about the 3070, then. The image you posted looks like it has an entirely different power-filtering cap layout.

 

I almost never clean my case, but my PC case has a front dust filter that catches tons of dust which I might clean-out every couple of months or so. If the case had just a mesh front without a filter I expect dust would be a much bigger problem.

 

I don't remember the last time I cleaned the inside of my case, but here's how it looks right now.

 

 

 

Mine isn't for looks, so I don't mind dust so long as it isn't so bad that it's impacting heat and performance. I'm not sure if this dust is there just yet.

 

 

The big opening at-least makes it easy to verify which types of filtering caps are used. And because Asus' use of all MLC caps has made it the go-to brand for this generation (after Nvidia shorted AIBs on OC headroom), they seem pretty happy to use that hole to show-off that they're using all-MLCC in their AMD GPUs, too:

 

[Mark Kaine]

4 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The image you posted looks like it has an entirely different power-filtering cap layout.

Yeah the more I looked at it I realized that... it has 4 "poscaps" seemingly but that's about it with similarities I guess, and it's not as nice lol... supposedly it's a good overclocker though so it's probably not a problem. 

 

yeah amd cards have that opening usually, I always think it's probably a bit for cooling too... 

 

And lol, well I clean my pc once a month... I did measure it too, usually it's good for 1C less or so actually... especially the cpu heat sink is a dust magnet apparently, I suppose GPU too. And yes I'd need a filter for my front intake ideally... (which is really a side intake) 

 

 

 

well there'll always be some dust, but I'll try to keep it minimal haha 

 

 

 

 

[Delicieuxz]

@Jurrunio

I contacted Asus support through Facebook and their website asking for confirmation if there's any binning done between the Tuf and Tuf OC cards, and I got two separate responses saying that, to the best of their knowledge, there isn't:

 

"We are not aware of any 'binning' was done with the cards."

 

"Please advise the customer that to our knowledge, there's no "bining process" done with the cards."

[Jurrunio]

22 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

@Jurrunio

I contacted Asus support through Facebook and their website asking for confirmation if there's any binning done between the Tuf and Tuf OC cards, and I got two separate responses saying that, to the best of their knowledge, there isn't:

 

"We are not aware of any 'binning' was done with the cards."

 

"Please advise the customer that to our knowledge, there's no "bining process" done with the cards."

Seems like I'm being outdated then, because apparently Nvidia binned them beforehand so partners simply has to buy a better bin for their factory OC cards and call it a day

https://www.techpowerup.com/272052/nvidia-geforce-rtx-ampere-chips-feature-three-binning-tiers-mostly-good-dies-are-present

 

My argument still stands in this case tho, factory OC versions are different.

[Delicieuxz]

6 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Seems like I'm being outdated then, because apparently Nvidia binned them beforehand so partners simply has to buy a better bin for their factory OC cards and call it a day

https://www.techpowerup.com/272052/nvidia-geforce-rtx-ampere-chips-feature-three-binning-tiers-mostly-good-dies-are-present

 

My argument still stands in this case tho, factory OC versions are different.

Nvidia does bin them. But each AIB model tier isn't from a different binning pile. As EVGA has said, most of their models are all from the same pile of chips and aren't binned between them, while it's currently only their Kingpin cards which are made from higher-binned chips. With Asus, from what I've read, the ROG and Strix cards are binned chips. But the Tuf and Tuf OC cards aren't binned for some to be regular Tuf and others to be Tuf OC - the chips for both come from the same pile without any sorting.

 

Your link says that there are 3 tiers of Nvidia's binning. For Asus, that might be their Tuf line at the lowest tier of binning, their ROG line at the next tier of binning, and their Strix line at the top tier of binning.

[Jurrunio]

6 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Nvidia does bin them. But each AIB model tier isn't from a different binning pile. As EVGA has said, most of their models are all from the same pile of chips and aren't binned between them, while it's currently only their Kingpin cards which are made from higher-binned chips. With Asus, from what I've read, the ROG and Strix cards are binned chips. But the Tuf and Tuf OC cards aren't binned for some to be regular Tuf and others to be Tuf OC - the chips for both come from the same pile without any sorting.

 

Your link says that there are 3 tiers of Nvidia's binning. For Asus, that might be their Tuf line at the lowest tier of binning, their ROG line at the next tier of binning, and their Strix line at the top tier of binning.

with the 3080, Asus only has TUF, Strix (both 1740MHz boost in OC mode accessible through their software, 30MHz less by default), TUF OC (1815MHz) and Strix OC (1935MHz), no pure blood ROG. 

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=492&sort=-boost&page=1

Comparing turbo clocks between different 3080s, those on or above 1900MHz are clearly on the best B2 bin with the amount of difference they have compared to the rest (and higher boost clock than most 3090s). Meanwhile the 1710MHz to 1845MHz contains so many models here that it can't be all B0 because there's not enough B0s (when it's 30% of all GA102 made), can't be all B1 either because 3080 is the most cut down GA102 Nvidia has and those B0 silicon has to go somewhere. Can it be randomly distributed? Maybe but not on the lower and higher end of frequencies, otherwise why separate B0 and B1 at all? In this case the TUF OC does stand closer to the high end while TUF and Strix stand closer to the low end. Doesnt look like the same bin to me.

[drgoku4star]

The Asus TUF non oc was just way too good. It even makes the strix look shit. I was lucky enough to get one but I wish I kept it