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AMD as well as Nvidia (and/or partners) take advantage of the consumer by skyrocketing the price of graphics cards.

Message added by Glenwing,

After some discussion, I have decided to unlock this thread for the time being.

 

We will be monitoring the thread. Keep the discussion civil and CALM. If it devolves into a shouting match, the thread will be locked again.

So since a topic with the exact same theme got locked because of the use of the term "funboy" I am going to reiterate the topic because I strongly believe that it's about an issue that should matter to us consumers and I believe we are been taken advantage of by corporate greed artificial limitations of stock and marketing gimmicks that crank up the pricetag without any reason and I think we as the consumers (as well as any tech journalist that focuses on pc gaming) should retaliate. 

 

To preemptively (and hopefully) avoid any derailing by out of topic comments I think (judging from the posts on the locked topic) I have to make something clear.

 

 

This topic is NOT about PC vs Consoles and how PCs as a whole system are more versatile than consoles and their usecase yada yada yada this is NOT about that. 

 

I will mention the xbox series x in this topic but just as a counter example of manufacturing cost so it doesnt matter what you do with a console and if you cant run Word or what not the reference is only for "apples to apples" comparison in terms of cost of PCB or other components since despite having different use cases (that on the same time intertwine in many cases) the cost of e.g a dual/triple etc layer PCB is the same per square centimeter, the cost for e.g capacitors is comparable the method of soldering chips is the same, also the graphics architecture is the same (RDNA2) compared to recent 6000 series of AMD so for the purpose of this topic which is to determine cost of production we are dealing with very similar things in terms of how you produce them and their associated cost

 

 

This topic is about the prices of Graphics cards as a standalone component and how inexcusable their pricetags are.

 

 

Also I have to declare that I am not against companies making a profit, I am just against obvious predatory tactics in all shapes or forms against the consumer to make irrational profits on our backs. 

 

Last but not least both Graphics cards and Consoles are massively produced so the economics of scale apply more or less to both scenarios just as a reference (because its hard to find for free at least total number of units for each year ) https://www.anandtech.com/show/10864/discrete-desktop-gpu-market-trends-q3-2016/4 nvidia sold in three quarters around 2016 25,000,000 (25 million) discrete GPUs 

 

That's only for nvidia and only for those quarters... and its a billions dollar industry (because in the locked topic someone called upon consoles are being mass-produced as if graphics cards are not mass-produced. ) 

 

And just as a reference again SONY's best-selling console(PS4) sold 113,000,000 (113 million units) since its launch(2013) and up to 2020 so in a 7 year period https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/04/playstation-4-sales-pass-112-4-million-as-ps5-launch-looms/


 

So I repeat the scale of mass production is comparable (if not leaning towards the Graphics cards both for higher numbers per year and for lesser complexity because its essentially a PCB with a cooler on it in contrast to consoles which have tons more of parts from different production lines assembled together and shipped ) 

 

Oh and I think I must stress this again THIS IS NOT ABOUT CONSOLES VS PCs! it's about reverse engineering (if you like) the inflated cost of nowadays graphics cards using a comparative example. 

 

Lets start now:

 

 

 

This is how the Xbox Series X main PCB looks like

 

00ab3e9c09e448addd4bd04f9c066c4e.png

 

Besides the RDNA2 graphics (52 CUs @ 1.8Ghz 12 teraflos) it has additionally 16GB or GDDR6 ram and Zen2 architecture CPU (8 core @3.8GHz)  and as you can see various additional components (=even higher cost$$) that are not present in a Graphics card PCB. 

 

Best case scenario (in terms of number of components and cost) here is a RDNA2 (same architecture but 60CUs @ 1.8 GHz 16 teraflops) RX 6800 xt PCB 

 

front_small.jpg

 

Right on the getgo (in terms of cost) we are missing a CPU here among other minor passive and active components. 

 

 

This is the entire "junk" you get by buying an Xbox series X from microsoft (think of it both in terms of individual parts and in terms of mass/number of individual items involved) 

 

 

98d1726325941f1edbcd8c34394750fc.png

 

3b25905b3bdd2be8ddc39c7a7b3031d8.png

 

 

look at this beefy lump of components and junk in general....  white on the other side we have Graphics cards companies complaining that they supposedly cant hold MSRP because the cooler(some aluminium fins same metal as your cola can and a couple of small thin plastic fans) costs too much (a 5 to 30$ max cost on cards that retail well above 350$ ! ) These are the greasy carsalesman apologetics I hate because they are manipulating consumers minds in order to pray upon us!

 

 

 

On top of that a xbox series x console has additional costs in terms of

 

CPU (=more $$)

SSD (=more $$)

Wifi chip (=more $$)

Power supply (=more $$)

Optical drive (=more $$)

Plastic casing/shroud (=more $$)

Passive cooling (due to sheer bigger mass compared to a discrete GPU cooler, see pictures above, =more $$)

Lan and digital audio components (=more $$)

Included cables and other accessories like a freaking wireless controller ! (=more $$)

Simply more material in terms of screws structure stability variaous connecting gables etc (=more $$) 

Its own OS! (=more $$)

 

And are in general more complex to manufacture because you dont just solder some passive components on a PCB and then slap a cooler on it and call it a day (as in the case of making a graphics card!) you have all those parts from different suppliers/production lines and you have to assemble all that stuff into one system. 

 

 

Yet an Xbox series X msrp is 499$

On top of that in terms of gaming it has similar potential like 4K @ 30 to 120 FPS depending on the title! 

 

And e.g (not hating on the particular company same goes for everyone but I want to give atleast one example)  you have sapphire who solders the GPU and some components to a bare naked PCB slaps a thin light cooler on it (e.g nitro+ ) and asks 750$ for it! 

 

 

"But hold your horse" one would say, consoles sell at a loss!! 

 

Well even if that is true in the aforementioned locked topic I theorized a 100$ loss for the xbox series X console (so for every console sold @ 499$ MS loses 499$ or in otherwords the console costing 998$  which is ridiculous but the GPU prices are even more ridiculous which even such an extreme scenario doesnt make them look better!!) 

 

Oh and guess what it turns out that MS is NOT SELLING AT A LOSS as far as xbox series X is concerned!!! (or atleat at a small loss of about 20-50$ )  refence link https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/625110-xbox-series-x-cost-to-manufacture-analyst-estimate-daniel-ahmad

 

and I quote

 

Quote

Based on Mr. Ahmad’s estimates, the Xbox Series X cost to manufacture will be $460–$520. How that affects the retail price (and how much Microsoft is willing to lose per unit) is something that we’ll surely find out over the coming year.

 

 

And its not just about "flagship" GPU cost (which in an entire different leage of pricetag inflation!) I mean think about it take a 5700 for example how much does it cost compared to xbox series x?  and it has lower performance, specs is an older architecture (which means it should be priced cheaper) yet its about the same price as a xbox series x!!! 

 

Without having any of the extra cost associated with a console  which in other words all this extra cost compared to the xbox series x that they dont need to pay while having similar price tag gets into the pockets of AMD/Nvidia and/or the partners!!!

 

And all that literally at the expense of us the consumers!!

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Like I said in the "scalpers" thread, the supply and demand will meet at the price. This is because the market determines what an item is worth, not its physical composition or the cost of production. 

 

If the price is too high, the products will not sell. The lack of buyers puts downward pressure on the price until the items start selling.

 

If the price is too low, the company will either raise prices, or the items will be bought and resold at higher prices. The high demand puts upward pressure on the price, until it hits a point that appropriately matches the demand. 

 

If the value of an item is not enough to you to warrant the prices people are asking, then just don't buy it. Eventually, the demand will fall, and the prices with them. If it really is worth the money to you, you'll buy it. 

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6 minutes ago, papajo said:

Oh and guess what it turns out that MS is NOT SELLING AT A LOSS as far as xbox series X is concerned!!! (or atleat at a small loss of about 20-50$ )

This makes no sense.

A small loss is a loss.

 

You cannot compare a product that makes its money via licensing and services to a product that makes its money in an entirely different way. The goal are waaaaaaaaay different.

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You are rather annoying, you know that?  yes mods i know this is a personally aimed dig at the OP, but their other thread was just as silly too.

 

There may be an economics 101 book or for dummies somewhere, read one.

 

 

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Make sure to repost this every day - people will eventually listen to you, make no mistake!

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2 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

This makes no sense.

A small loss is a loss.

 

You cannot compare a product that makes its money via licensing and services to a product that makes its money in an entirely different way. The goal are waaaaaaaaay different.

No its the same, we are talking about production cost  how the companies make their money is totally different story. 

 

You just have to have a sense of what is on the table here. 

 

If it costs about 500$ to produce and assemple 

 

1  8core zen2 CPU @3.8GHz

1 RDNA2 52 CU 12 TF @1.8Ghz GPU

1 SSD

1 optical drive

1 Controller 

+ all the other stuff (like the controller alone should suffice) at that pricetag then its certain that if you just solder some components (less in numbers at that!) on a (smaller) PCB and slap a cooler on to it your price tag should be lower than that because simply you DONT HAVE TO PAY for controller, SSD, optical drive etc! 

 

Hence all the costs that are saved from not having to buy these things are translated as profit to the 3rd party and/or the designers (AMD/Nvidia) period its simple logic 1+1 =2 

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Apart from this being very misleading, it is also incredibly hard to read.

If you want people to listen to you and understand what you're trying to say, you need to learn how to properly format and structure your posts.

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Stop making the same thread already, if you are butthurt because you wanted a very fast PC and there is no stock or the prices are high, just fucking wait like a reasonable grownup? Instead of crying about not having the latest tech? Why don't you buy used if you want a fast and affordable PC now?

 

Just grow up and learn that this is a more or less free market, I read everyday an Indian guy blaming their gov because their taxes in PC parts are too damn high, and that's unavoidable even if you wait or not. So you are not screwed, you are just butthurt because there were more people wanting the same as you and the prices went up or the stock went down, easy as that. If you blame Nvidia or AMD for the "low" stock, then just don't buy from them ever again, buy used, keep your hardware for more years, etc etc etc I don't know what else to say

 

Edit: something else to say, if you consider a console better value then just go for a console goddammit as almost everyone considering buying a console do, it's a different market, you don't know the agreements sony and ms had with AMD for the soc cost

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1 minute ago, papajo said:

No its the same, we are talking about production cost  how the companies make their money is totally different story. 

 

You just have to have a sense of what is on the table here. 

 

If it costs about 500$ to produce and assemple 

 

1  8core zen2 CPU @3.8GHz

1 RDNA2 52 CU 12 TF @1.8Ghz GPU

1 SSD

1 optical drive

1 Controller 

+ all the other stuff (like the controller alone should suffice) at that pricetag then its certain that if you just solder some components (less in numbers at that!) on a (smaller) PCB and slap a cooler on to it your price tag should be lower than that because simply you DONT HAVE TO PAY for controller, SSD, optical drive etc! 

 

Hence all the costs that are saved from not having to buy these things are translated as profit to the 3rd party and/or the designers (AMD/Nvidia) period its simple logic 1+1 =2 

Things sold from a retailer comes with needing to make a profit, import cost, postage costs, there are lot's of hidden costs that us as the consumer get as a final sum we have to pay.

 

An item directly from manufacture to a console cuts all the costs by a big amount, the GPU & CPU are on a single PCB cutting costs, they are also together on one Die cutting fab costs.

 

There is more but it's not needed to get my point across.

 

Now add in all the accessories in the same vain.

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OP we keep telling you the reason consoles are cheaper than a GPU but you don't listen lol

Quote me to see my reply!

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9 minutes ago, papajo said:

No its the same, we are talking about production cost  how the companies make their money is totally different story. 

 

You just have to have a sense of what is on the table here. 

 

If it costs about 500$ to produce and assemple 

 

1  8core zen2 CPU @3.8GHz

1 RDNA2 52 CU 12 TF @1.8Ghz GPU

1 SSD

1 optical drive

1 Controller 

+ all the other stuff (like the controller alone should suffice) at that pricetag then its certain that if you just solder some components (less in numbers at that!) on a (smaller) PCB and slap a cooler on to it your price tag should be lower than that because simply you DONT HAVE TO PAY for controller, SSD, optical drive etc! 

 

Hence all the costs that are saved from not having to buy these things are translated as profit to the 3rd party and/or the designers (AMD/Nvidia) period its simple logic 1+1 =2 

Sure, it's super easy if you just "yada yada" all the details lol.

You're erasing tons of relevant math in the equation to simply it down to 1+1=2 when it's not a question of simple math.

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With consumer graphics cards its a matter of supply and demand, demand is more than supply with the Nvidia RTX30 series cards,and AMD RX 6000 cards, so prices are going to be higher. MSRP is simply a suggestion of what prices to set.

And consoles are sold at a loss, cost is made up through things like people buying games through the store.

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1 minute ago, papajo said:

No its the same, we are talking about production cost  how the companies make their money is totally different story. 

 

You just have to have a sense of what is on the table here. 

 

If it costs about 500$ to produce and assemple 

 

1  8core zen2 CPU @3.8GHz

1 RDNA2 52 CU 12 TF @1.8Ghz GPU

1 SSD

1 optical drive

1 Controller 

+ all the other stuff (like the controller alone should suffice) at that pricetag then its certain that if you just solder some components (less in numbers at that!) on a (smaller) PCB and slap a cooler on to it your price tag should be lower than that because simply you DONT HAVE TO PAY for controller, SSD, optical drive etc! 

 

Hence all the costs that are saved from not having to buy these things are translated as profit to the 3rd party and/or the designers (AMD/Nvidia) period its simple logic 1+1 =2 

Production costs are not relevant. It's the market that determines the value, and thus the price. 

 

A Pentium 4 can be bought for $7 on eBay. That is way, way less than its production costs. Why? Because the demand is low. 

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AMD doesn't have a monopoly, if they raise prices too much then people won't buy their products. Part of the reason that they can charge more for the graphics cards than the Xbox is that people are more willing to pay extra for the graphics cards. Think the price is too high? Don't buy new products from the company. If the price is too high for the market, other people will do the same and the manufacturer will be forced to lower the price if they want to sell the product. If the price isn't too high for the market, people will continue buying the products and the manufacturer doesn't need to reduce the cost. 

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Also I'm only hearing a problem, not a proposed solution. What do you propose? For the manufacturer to lower the price of graphics cards? They already can't meet demand, lowering the price and as a result increasing demand is only going to make the situation worse. If your proposed solution is to increase the quantity of products manufactured, what makes you think they aren't already making as many as they can? The more items they make, the more they can sell, which leads to more profit. They are not benefiting from scalpers buying the limited stock and reselling at higher price. It logically does not make sense for them to be intentionally and maliciously limiting manufacturing quantities. 

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Just now, The_russian said:

Also I'm only hearing a problem, not a proposed solution. What do you propose? For the manufacturer to lower the price of graphics cards? They already can't meet demand, lowering the price and as a result increasing demand is only going to make the situation worse. If your proposed solution is to increase the quantity of products manufactured, what makes you think they aren't already making as many as they can? The more items they make, the more they can sell, which leads to more profit. They are not benefiting from scalpers buying the limited stock and reselling at higher price. It logically does not make sense for them to be intentionally and maliciously limiting manufacturing quantities. 

Solutions require thought out, well knowledgeable people with problem solving abilities which is a part of intelligence.

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21 minutes ago, charlie_root said:

Like I said in the "scalpers" thread, the supply and demand will meet at the price. This is because the market determines what an item is worth, not its physical composition or the cost of production. 

 

If the price is too high, the products will not sell. The lack of buyers puts downward pressure on the price until the items start selling.

 

If the price is too low, the company will either raise prices, or the items will be bought and resold at higher prices. The high demand puts upward pressure on the price, until it hits a point that appropriately matches the demand. 

 

If the value of an item is not enough to you to warrant the prices people are asking, then just don't buy it. Eventually, the demand will fall, and the prices with them. If it really is worth the money to you, you'll buy it. 

And it doesnt baffle you as a consumer that you pay upwards of 100$ more (up to 500+$)  to get a lesser performance (or a slightly faster depending on how much closer to the +500 you get) graphics card to get a PCB + a cooler

 

While it's obviously demonstrated above that the cost of a similar GPU + a damn 8 core ZEN2 CPU + a wireless controller + an SSD + Optical drive + power supply(these stuff costs MONEY)  costs less than that or about the same to produce? 

 

 

It doesnt baffle you that GPUs are for some mysterious reason (as if noone expected on Christmas time people wanting to buy graphics cards) the stock is limited or close to 0 (especially in case of AMD) while console are atleast decently stocked! (yea the covid argument that people stay in and buy more goes bothways not only for the graphics cards but for consoles as well!)  ?

 

While older architectures have stead on the same prices if not higher! as if nothing happened and doesnt scale of production count here? I mean they surely have an ample stock of those older cards.. 

 

Why is that manipulation of supply? if not to drag the prices even higher? 

 

Do you think that this is cool? or that this is totally dishonest and just exploits the fact that there is no regulation to graphics cards and their prices relative to their cost?

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ctrl+c   ctrl+v

 

If you're not happy, vote with your wallet, don't buy a GPU unless it's at a price you're willing to pay.

Judge the product by its own merits, not by the Company that created it.

 

Don't dilute <good thing> by always trying to focus on, and drag conversation back to, <bad thing>.

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2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

ctrl+c   ctrl+v

 

If you're not happy, vote with your wallet, don't buy a GPU unless it's at a price you're willing to pay.

I agree, and if you don't like the price of a new GPU, look for a used one.

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2 minutes ago, papajo said:

And it doesnt baffle you as a consumer that you pay upwards of 100$ more (up to 500+$)  to get a lesser performance (or a slightly faster depending on how much closer to the +500 you get) graphics card to get a PCB + a cooler

 

While it's obviously demonstrated above that the cost of a similar GPU + a damn 8 core ZEN2 CPU + a wireless controller + an SSD + Optical drive + power supply(these stuff costs MONEY)  costs less than that or about the same to produce? 

 

 

It doesnt baffle you that GPUs are for some mysterious reason (as if noone expected on Christmas time people wanting to buy graphics cards) the stock is limited or close to 0 (especially in case of AMD) while console are atleast decently stocked! (yea the covid argument that people stay in and buy more goes bothways not only for the graphics cards but for consoles as well!)  ?

 

Why is that manipulation of supply? if not to drag the prices even higher? 

 

Do you think that this is cool? or that this is totally dishonest and just exploits the fact that there is no regulation to graphics cards and their prices relative to their cost?

There is nothing baffling or dishonest here. It's actually an extremely simple formula: people want them, and are willing to pay high prices to get them. So, they cost high prices. Eventually the demand will fall and so will the prices. I don't see what's such a big deal about it. 

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4 minutes ago, Wheresmehammer said:

Solutions require thought out, well knowledgeable people with problem solving abilities which is a part of intelligence.

The solution is simple (and for that reason hopeless judging from many "cheap shot posts" presented here) do you part to change that.

 

As it has been done with EA for example and their starwars title where people showed their dismay towards EA's tactics that was taking advantage of them. 

 

But people can just post stuff as "i am butt hurt because I cant buy a GPU" and call it a day... meanwhile PR people from AMD/Nvidia that check forums will see these post and laugh in pleasure of knowing that they have no reason to do anything because apparently people prefer to be ripped off and just be naysayers to someone who posts something not in favor of their favorit thing. 

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1 minute ago, papajo said:

The solution is simple (and for that reason hopeless judging from many "cheap shot posts" presented here) do you part to change that.

 

As it has been done with EA for example and their starwars title where people showed their dismay towards EA's tactics that was taking advantage of them. 

 

But people can just post stuff as "i am butt hurt because I cant buy a GPU" and call it a day... meanwhile PR people from AMD/Nvidia that check forums will see these post and laugh in pleasure of knowing that they have no reason to do anything because apparently people prefer to be ripped off and just be naysayers to someone who posts something not in favor of their favorit thing. 

You said the solution is simple yet presented no solution.

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2 minutes ago, charlie_root said:

There is nothing baffling or dishonest here. It's actually an extremely simple formula: people want them, and are willing to pay high prices to get them. So, they cost high prices. Eventually the demand will fall and so will the prices. I don't see what's such a big deal about it. 

People are forced to pay high prices for them and get a lesser card because they cant afford the more expensive card. 

 

Take for example the steam database on GPUs... expensive GPUs are less than 5% 

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

 

You think that this is true because people dont like to have better graphics or are satisfied @ playing 60 FPS 1080p ? 

 

No its because graphics cards are too damn expensive and they are so because of stock manipulation and inflated profits

 

Need I to remind you that in the not so far past a flagship GPU used to go for 400 to 500ish USD max? 

 

 

And the point being that this happens for no reason other than corporate greed. I mean if you are feeling ok being ripped off then I dont know what to say on that, I surely dont feel ok.

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Just now, papajo said:

People are forced to pay high prices for them and get a lesser card because they cant afford the more expensive card. 

 

Take for example the steam database on GPUs... expensive GPUs are less than 5% 

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

 

You think that this is true because people dont like to have better graphics or are satisfied @ playing 60 FPS 1080p ? 

 

No its because graphics cards are too damn expensive and they are so because of stock manipulation and inflated profits

 

Need I to remind you that in the not so far past a flagship GPU used to go for 400 to 500ish USD max? 

 

 

And the point being that this happens for no reason other than corporate greed. I mean if you are feeling ok being ripped off then I dont know what to say on that, I surely dont feel ok.

Nobody is forced to buy a GPU. It's a luxury item. You can simply not buy one until the asking prices fall to a level you are willing to pay. This is simply how economics works. 

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9 minutes ago, papajo said:

And it doesnt baffle you as a consumer that you pay upwards of 100$ more (up to 500+$)  to get a lesser performance (or a slightly faster depending on how much closer to the +500 you get) graphics card to get a PCB + a cooler

No because I don't buy a new graphics card, or cpu for that matter, every time a new generation is released. When I do upgrade every few years, I buy used hardware anyway so I'm not paying more for less performance. As a side note, I don't get why a lot of gamers feel the need to get the newest, shiniest thing every release cycle, do you really feel the difference of a few frames a second when gaming?

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