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M1 Macs can now run Windows apps and games through Crossover 20

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

It's also worth noting that most recent progress on Wine-related stuff has depended on DXVK which is not technically part of the Wine software and as far as I know doesn't work with Metal.

That's actually the main update with Crossover 20. They finally managed to port DXVK over to Apples Metal, granted I believe it's somewhat limited due various missing extensions in Metal. VKD3D however still remains incompatible as far as I know.

 

With that said, the Article is a little misleading considering CrossOver has been around for MacOS since 2007. Rosetta is also a product of MacOS that acts as a translation layer for x86 to ARM, which is in no way related to crossover. As others have also explained, Wine and Rosetta are both translation layers not emulators.

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2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Again, there's nothing surprising about this - if rosetta2 works fine then being able to run software like wine is just expected. There's no emulation going on here. 

No one was doubting about whether this was possible. The main point is it is usable.

 

It's a 32-bit Intel binary going through Wine's 32 to 64 bit bridge running in crossover, running under Rosetta 2 translation on the cheapest fanless MacBook Air. The capability of this chip to handle overhead and make usable works is what is impressive. That is what the developer is saying

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18 minutes ago, Nayr438 said:

With that said, the Article is a little misleading considering CrossOver has been around for MacOS since 2007. Rosetta is also a product of MacOS that acts as a translation layer for x86 to ARM, which is in no way related to crossover. As others have also explained, Wine and Rosetta are both translation layers not emulators.

The point is it's usable. 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

No one was doubting about whether this was possible. The main point is it is usable.

 

It's a 32-bit Intel binary going through Wine's 32 to 64 bit bridge running in crossover, running under Rosetta 2 translation on the cheapest fanless MacBook Air. The capability of this chip to handle overhead and make usable works is what is impressive. That is what the developer is saying

It running and working.

 

Many people's gripe about ARM macs was not being able to bootcamp windows. For some people that is still true. But for people who depend on just few applications, this can be a viable solution

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8 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

No one was doubting about whether this was possible. The main point is it is usable.

 

It's a 32-bit Intel binary going through Wine's 32 to 64 bit bridge running in crossover, running under Rosetta 2 translation on the cheapest fanless MacBook Air. The capability of this chip to handle overhead and make usable works is what is impressive. That is what the developer is saying

I don't think it's nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be. Of course it's usable, that was a given as soon as we found out that rosetta2 itself was "usable".

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-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

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A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

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-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

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A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

the cheapest fanless MacBook Air.

people keep saying this like it's something amazing. even the "cheapest" model is still the price of a premium ultrabook, or a fairly decent gaming laptop (at least here in Australia)

Judge the product by its own merits, not by the Company that created it.

 

Don't dilute <good thing> by always trying to focus on, and drag conversation back to, <bad thing>.

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16 minutes ago, Arika S said:

people keep saying this like it's something amazing. even the "cheapest" model is still the price of a premium ultrabook, or a fairly decent gaming laptop (at least here in Australia)

Considering a certain Macbook might as well have been fanless (seriously  - whomever did/caused that, stop being stupid).

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We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

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8 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Considering a certain Macbook might as well have been fanless (seriously  - whomever did/caused that, stop being stupid).

A certain macbook with no heatpipes and a fan that does nothing, that was probably on purpose.

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This could change everything for someone wanting a “safety net” for the occasional windows_x86-only program. (not sure and don’t care about games, but I think they’re meant to showcase “see? if even a 3D game is kinda sorta usable, imagine the 2D program you’re thinking of”). 

 

With the x86-virtualization safety net and bootcamp safety net gone..

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Considering that my 2008 MBP lasted me till 2016... And my 2011 MBP lasted me till 2017... And all my macs lasted a really long time compared to my DIY Windows builds, I think it's an excellent time to transit back into MacOS again.

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14 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

This could change everything for someone wanting a “safety net” for the occasional windows_x86-only program. (not sure and don’t care about games, but I think they’re meant to showcase “see? if even a 3D game is kinda sorta usable, imagine the 2D program you’re thinking of”). 

 

With the x86-virtualization safety net and bootcamp safety net gone..

Just as an anecdote.

 

I got Crossover for free somewhere around 2008-2009 (they had some campaign giving away free licenses). I deleted it (and in the process lost my key) around 2012 after never using it. So I think for a lot of people (not all) you just have to find an alternative way to do what you want to do and you'll manage. 

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25 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Just as an anecdote.

 

I got Crossover for free somewhere around 2008-2009 (they had some campaign giving away free licenses). I deleted it (and in the process lost my key) around 2012 after never using it. So I think for a lot of people (not all) you just have to find an alternative way to do what you want to do and you'll manage. 

 

Sure, same here with VMware Fusion back in 2008.

Barely used it during the years.

It’s more about having a psychological safety net for some. (I’m no longer one of them)

 

One funny thing I was thinking is that with AS Macs also running smartphone apps, nowadays there may even be some instance where one particular configuration app (be it for a washing machine, a fridge or a wifi system) may only be available on smartphones, and hence on AS Macs (and not Windows)...then again, everybody has a smartphone nearby at all times..

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49 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

This could change everything for someone wanting a “safety net” for the occasional windows_x86-only program. (not sure and don’t care about games, but I think they’re meant to showcase “see? if even a 3D game is kinda sorta usable, imagine the 2D program you’re thinking of”). 

 

With the x86-virtualization safety net and bootcamp safety net gone..

Considering it's just Wine and DXVK, it's compatibility will either be on par or below that of running it on Linux. Unfortunately once you leave the gaming side of things, Wine compatibility falls apart fairly quick as you move towards more recent software. I wouldn't consider it a good alternative to bootcamp.

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But can it run Crysis? 

On the other hand Blizzard updated their WoW client to natively support AS M1 though. 

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5 hours ago, Nayr438 said:

it's compatibility will either be on par or below that of running it on Linux

I can actually answer that for you - "below". Metal doesn't support all Vulkan functionality. It's probably fine for most uses of something like this though.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

What is scaling and how does it work? Asus PB287Q unboxing! Console alternatives :D Watch Netflix with Kodi on Arch Linux Sharing folders over the internet using SSH Beginner's Guide To LTT (by iamdarkyoshi)

Sauron'stm Product Scores:

Spoiler

Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

Spoiler

A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

Spoiler

From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

Spoiler

Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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In my opinion, I think this is pretty cool.

While sure they show gaming, I think the real focus of such tool is running Windows application that aren't avail on Mac.

If you are planning on doing gaming with Windows only games, then, obviously for the best experience (which I assume one seeks when gaming), get a Windows powered system.

 

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13 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

The latest version of CrossOver emulates Windows Intel binaries on macOS through Rosetta 2 technology, which emulates x86 binaries on the new ARM Mac hardware.

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What is really impressive is that devs are working around OEMs to make this possible.
Games/programs only support DX: DXVK implements DX stuff with Vulkan. (Valve, WINE, Crossover and others are working on that).
Apple doesn't support Vulkan: MoltenVK implements Vulkan stuff with Metal (Valve and other Khronos members are working on this).
Apple dropped support for OpenCL: Mesa/Zink can run OpenCL on Vulkan, which along MoltenVK can be used to enable OpenCL on Mac (seems like OBS is working on that).
Even Microsoft is working on OpenCL->DX driver for Mesa, which is very weird but cool.
Operating systems dropping support for 32bit binaries: WINE can translate calls and Valve is working on containers to encapsulate system libraries for that.

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I've been using my M1 air for a few days now and it's got to the point where I'm just overwhelmed by the doors this thing is opening. This is a thin and light notebook that cost me less than what it would have cost for an XPS13, and despite running a totally different architecture, OS and requiring lots of translation layers to even run the games, it runs things better than I think they would run natively on the XPS13.

I opened EVE Online in CrossOver, running natively at 2560x1600 with all the settings cranked up I'm getting between 45-60FPS. It feels smooth to the point where I could genuinely see myself just gaming on my MacBook Air. At 4K on an external monitor, 25-30FPS. World of Warcraft running natively stays well in excess of 60FPS with everything on Ultra except turning down shadows and SSAO, even with them on it puts out a respectable 30FPS. Reminder that the laptop is running on batteries, is barely warm to the touch and obviously inaudible. I'm installing Witcher 3 and a few other games to try them out.

I'm sure if you bought literally any thin and light notebook on the market, whether with a 4700U, Tiger Lake Xe graphics chip or something equivalent, you could _maybe_ get a similar experience running games and everything natively in windows. But for once I think there's a genuine opportunity here for it to be actual competition. If I think of all the compromises I'd have to make elsewhere, maybe an inferior panel, maybe the fan noise, battery life, or to nitpick the still gross DPI scaling in windows - heck possibly price too... it's hard to knock this, Apple hit it out the park with this laptop and I'm genuinely excited to see how the industry responds.

Platform agnostic software engineer & small business owner. 

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Also another update - Witcher 3 is almost playable with everything turned down at 2560x1600, feels like about 30 FPS. But if you stick it at 1680x1050 and turn up some settings so it looks nice and feels like it's running at 60.

Platform agnostic software engineer & small business owner. 

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12 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

oh, Parallels has worked great for when I've needed it.  I'm curious how it'll work with the M1...and if the secret sauce of Windows Arm might lay somewhere in Parallels efforts and WINE etc.

I’m definitely curious too. I hope they’re not forced into full emulation with the lack of certain virtualization options on M1.

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13 hours ago, leadeater said:

May I ask what WINE standards for? 🤣 🙃

WINE is NoW an Emulator

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running things on VM does not equal to running the OS on the hardware natively. If you're the type of person who has the time to tinker around with this and know what all support on on your own, then go ahead, but for the regular consumers out there. Buying a Mac then use the OS  it was designed for and that's OSX. Want to use windows, then get a PC.

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35 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

running things on VM does not equal to running the OS on the hardware natively. If you're the type of person who has the time to tinker around with this and know what all support on on your own, then go ahead, but for the regular consumers out there. Buying a Mac then use the OS  it was designed for and that's OSX. Want to use windows, then get a PC.

Translate does not equal emulate.

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We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

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15 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Then can say Wine Is Not An Emulator as much as they like, its main function is to allow users to run non native apps on a foreign OS. Its an emulator in every usual way we refer to them.

 

Translation layers are often called by their alternative names, High Level Emulators.

Agreed that's what an emulator does, translate shit... I know there's more to it but that's obviously a big part of it. 

 

Would be funny if this new apple super computer could run things faster than windows after all, apparently it's really super fast

*according to apple™

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1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Agreed that's what an emulator does, translate shit... I know there's more to it but that's obviously a big part of it. 

 

Would be funny if this new apple super computer could run things faster than windows after all, apparently it's really super fast

*according to apple™

Apple is translating x86 code so that it can be understood by ARM. Emulating has far more steps involved. You don't emulate Japanese when you translate it into English.

I'm not emulating Windows XP programs under Windows 98SE when I use KernelEX to run them (still amazed at how well Oblivion runs under it).
My experience using KernelEX and WINE (my old 2006 laptop ran games better under WINE+Linux than natively) is why I'm not surprised that Apple seems to have had success with Rosetta 2.

"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
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