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Neural Engine on M1 is amazing...

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

But visually they look nice and like all things if they look good then they must also be well designed and well made聽馃ぃ

Well designed and well made can be found in the IBM/Lenovo ThinkPad's, they look bland and square AF but they absolutely were both well designed and made. But in the eyes of the consumers looks is primarily what matters and treated as equivalent, until they personally have a problem.

I spent 3 years doing bulk repair on at least 4 different fleets in the tens of thousands of systems. We were expected to do 13-15 repairs a day. Dell, Lenovo, and HP. We have rarely done Apple stuff, because none of our customers can afford it except for special orders, and they always end up being replacements.

I'll take Lenovo over Apple, Dell, and HP.

Deployed some Thinkpad Carbons a while ago and they were聽nice.

@Trik'StariFixed up your post for you

Edited by leadeater

Ketchup is better than mustard.

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2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

You may want to have another look at the recent LTT videos where Macbooks are reviewed to find out what build quality actually refers to (also for consumers).

I have a lot of experience with MacBook Pros, I've had to support them for years. And I like them and considered them great until the transition聽to the much thinner designs and started removing ports and going with even more customized boards, layouts and components.

But you know full well customer mindset is exactly as I pointed out, it actually doesn't matter if the MacBook Pros are well designed and made or not. I'll give you still well made but no longer well designed. Is it complex to design such a thin laptop, sure, does that actually then make the design actually any good, no. Just because a company put a lot of effort and resources in to making the device thin doesn't therefore make that design goal actually good in the first place, you don't get a prize for achieving a bad idea or the unnecessary.

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

As for personal experiences: I have a 2010 MBP here that is working flawlessly

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

But in the eyes of the consumers looks is primarily what matters and treated as equivalent, until they personally have a problem.

Case and point.

You've had 2, one never had an issue one that聽did. At a single client I looked after they had 100 MacBook Pros (another 200 iMacs) and I was supporting them through 3 replacement cycles before I left that IT support company. Other clients also had MacBook Pros and other Mac hardware, unless you or anyone else here on the forum is in the IT support field I have supported, touched, configured, warranty claimed more MacBook Pros they anyone else. Where I work now has 10,000 client devices, I have no involvement in supporting those anymore but I would have to guess at least a few thousand are Macs, I could find out by looking in our equipment database.

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

And, of course, there is absolutely no possibility that with Laptops from other companies also similar mistakes occur and they are simply not blasted out as heavily because no one would actually care.

Start a conversation about Razer laptops and see what happens. Or聽Toshiba, or HP (even though their business line is actually very good), or Acer (especially Acer of 10 years ago). You'll find no shortage of people that will come forward and speak about these companies, the difference is there is not a ready queue of people waiting to defend these companies regardless the number of issues or bad decisions that were made by the company, except maybe Razer... very small amount.

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7 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

I spent 3 years doing bulk repair on at least 4 different fleets in the tens of thousands of systems. We were expected to do 13-15 repairs a day. Dell, Lenovo, and HP. We have rarely done Apple stuff, because none of our customers can afford it except for special orders, and they always end up being replacements.

And what information does this add to the discussion? Besides adding evidence that Dell, Lenovo and HP as well break?

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

But you know full well customer mindset is exactly as I pointed out, it actually doesn't matter if the MacBook Pros are well designed and made or not. I'll give you still well made but no longer well designed. Is it complex to design such a thin laptop, sure, does that actually then make the design actually any good, no. Just because a company put a lot of effort and resources in to making the device thin doesn't therefore make that design goal actually good in the first place, you don't get a prize for achieving a bad idea or the unnecessary.

What exactly is badly designed with the last-gen Intel models of the MBP? Just because you think a laptop that thin is a bad design idea, does not mean that is true. A laptop is always a compromise between device size and performance. According to you logic we would best be walking around with mini-fridge sized machines because they would perform much better, also thermally.

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

(even though their business line is actually very good)

Haha, nice joke. Friend of mine has two of those for work. They are nothing more than your average plastic Windows laptop. Only usable if you always carry around a mouse and power adapter.

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

You've had 2, one never had an issue one that聽did. At a single client I looked after they had 100 MacBook Pros (another 200 iMacs) and I was supporting them through 3 replacement cycles before I left that IT support company. Other clients also had MacBook Pros and other Mac hardware, unless you or anyone else here on the forum is in the IT support field I have supported, touched, configured, warranty claimed more MacBook Pros they anyone else. Where I work now has 10,000 client devices, I have no involvement in supporting those anymore but I would have to guess at least a few thousand are Macs, I could find out by looking in our equipment database.

All that says is: "People use Macs a lot". What am I supposed to do with this info? This is not exactly new.

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Start a conversation about Razer laptops and see what happens. Or聽Toshiba, or HP (even though their business line is actually very good), or Acer (especially Acer of 10 years ago). You'll find no shortage of people that will come forward and speak about these companies, the difference is there is not a ready queue of people waiting to defend these companies regardless the number of issues or bad decisions that were made by the company, except maybe Razer... very small amount.

So how come you left out Dell and Lenovo out of your list there? You still think their devices never break? Sure.

I'll stay with that: Every manufacturer makes errors, and has devices that break. And so far not a single person was able to give me even a glimpse of reliable data of how often devices fail, divided by manufacturer.

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14 hours ago, Sauron said:

well designed laptops have slightly protruding borders so you don't slam the GLASS of the screen on the bottom of the unit every time you close it. the screen on most macbooks I see is dirty and/or scratched everywhere.

What the hell are you talking about? That "slightly protruding border" is there on literally any Macbook. Is it okay in this forum to spread misinformation? The screens are dirty because of dirt that gets on there, like with any other laptop. Scratched Macbook screens from closing the lid is yet another utter BS story from the land of fairytales.

So it is now Apples fault that their devices do not support slamming a clunky piece of plastic on front of their webcam? How dumb must one be to not realize that the lid does not close properly anymore and continue pressing harder until something breaks? This is nuts.

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15 hours ago, Sauron said:

Wow, I can take a low res picture of mario and upscale it to still look terrible but in 4k. Such a revolution.

In all seriousness this is irrelevant compared to high end graphics cards for anything other than novelty applications.

Yeah being able to do it in seconds as opposed to minutes in a thin and light is revolutionary. And you're comparing it to a desktop with dedicated GPU, so your own point proves why it is revolutionary. And if you think the application is just limited to upscaling a low res image, then I can't help you here. The lengths you go to try and downplay this in any way possible is just sad at this point

14 hours ago, Sauron said:

well designed laptops have slightly protruding borders so you don't slam the GLASS of the screen on the bottom of the unit every time you close it. the screen on most macbooks I see is dirty and/or scratched everywhere.

What the hell? All Macs have had a lip around the corner to protect the screen. Seriously, are you actually resorting to spread misinformation. 聽

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3 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Yeah being able to do it in seconds as opposed to minutes in a thin and light is revolutionary. And you're comparing it to a desktop with dedicated GPU, so your own point proves why it is revolutionary.

Things are "revolutionary" when they're useful. I'm comparing it to desktop graphics cards because that's what researchers use for AI, and this isn't even close.

4 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

And if you think the application is just limited to upscaling a low res image, then I can't help you here.

Please, enlighten me on the myriad applications of this.

4 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

The lengths you go to try and downplay this in any way possible is just sad at this point

I could say the same about you hyping it up despite not understanding what you're praising it for half the time.

5 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

What the hell? All Macs have had a lip around the corner to protect the screen. Seriously, are you actually resorting to spread misinformation. 聽

Yeah, and it's completely useless. I'm talking about plastic or hard rubber standoffs.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please聽馃え

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What is scaling and how does it work?Asus PB287Q unboxing!Console alternatives :DWatch Netflix with Kodi on Arch Linux Sharing folders over the internet using SSH Beginner's Guide To LTT (by iamdarkyoshi)

Sauron'stm Product Scores:

Spoiler

Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

Spoiler

A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

Spoiler

From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

Spoiler

Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

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15 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yeah, and it's completely useless. I'm talking about plastic or hard rubber standoffs.

They are made out of exactly those materials. Stop spreading misinformation!

15 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Please, enlighten me on the myriad applications of this.

You obviously have zero clue about machine learning.

23 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Seriously, are you actually resorting to spread misinformation. 聽

Yep, and Mods seem to happily engage in this. Mods that claim they have seen hundreds or thousands of Macbooks. I think it is time to finally step in and stop this behavior.

43 minutes ago, TheReal1980 said:

I started this thread about the Neural Engine on the M1...

Sorry for participating in derailing this thread. I am so pissed about the way every thread about the M1 evolves in this forum. It is always the same few people that piss at everything positive that is posted here and go lengths to hate and piss at anything Apple has ever done and make fun of it ("lulz haha rofl lmao you can even see keyboard outlines on the screen *insert cringy emoji here*. Sadly, as I said, some Mods do not only seem to green-light this kind of behavior but even actively engage in it.

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3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

What exactly is badly designed with the last-gen Intel models of the MBP? Just because you think a laptop that thin is a bad design idea, does not mean that is true. A laptop is always a compromise between device size and performance. According to you logic we would best be walking around with mini-fridge sized machines because they would perform much better, also thermally.

Ahh just no, so when I said the MacBook Pros before the going to the super thin design were good you just go and ignore that, and the draw backs of having to remove ports I mentioned due to that. And then you have the cooling issues, reparability issues, durability issues (people then to be less careful with devices they do not own).

So what you are saying is a 2012 MacBook Pro was the size of a mini-fridge? Really come on now stop being stupid. Literally nobody聽ever complained that MacBook Pros of that era were too thick.

Here you are displaying no logical at all so I'm not sure I should be entertaining this discussion at all....

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

All that says is: "People use Macs a lot". What am I supposed to do with this info? This is not exactly new.

Well you are the one that accused me of having no experience with using Macs so no it shows that I in facts do not, not at all. And for your information proportionally Macs are used very little compared to PC and for my line of work I'd rather not have to support Mac OS at all, horrible OS to support on large networks compared to Windows.

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Haha, nice joke. Friend of mine has two of those for work. They are nothing more than your average plastic Windows laptop. Only usable if you always carry around a mouse and power adapter.

Oh what rubbish, clearly you've never used HP business laptops and the typical plastic trope pulled out every time, because plastic = bad right? hahaha.

And you really think 10-12 hours on the 840 is bad? Or over 12 hours on the 850. Come now, these might have smaller batteries than in the MacBook Pros but you certainly are not having to plug it in all the time.

The difference is with HP you get extremely easy serviceability, upgradability for RAM and storage, dGPU support in the small screen models, and still retains useful ports like Ethernet all while not being "too thick" or rather pointlessly thin for zero benefit.

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So how come you left out Dell and Lenovo out of your list there? You still think their devices never break? Sure.

Well simple, because I was talking about companies that people regularly do complain about despite your claim of this only being a thing for Apple. There are numerous news topic threads and other threads on this very forum just about Razor laptops alone, evidence is people complain about more than just Apple.

In regards to Lenovo ask people about the consumer models and their bundled software, that's a great topic starter lol.

As for Lenovo and Dell hardware, obviously they break as everything can and does but the important thing is how often and how easy is it to repair. With Lenovo,聽Dell and HP no matter what time of day I log a support request a tech will be onsite the next day and have it repaired on average in about 30 minutes. Apple on the other hand, hell no, not in a million years. So while Apple certainly is no Toshiba when it comes to failure rates their serviceability and support response compared to competing options massively fall short.

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

I'll stay with that: Every manufacturer makes errors, and has devices that break. And so far not a single person was able to give me even a glimpse of reliable data of how often devices fail, divided by manufacturer.

Well you didn't ask and I'm confident you'd find a way to ignore it or rose tint it and ignore rather important factors like above, repair and response times. Apple's slow service times directly impact business operations, to the point of having to buy more to do your own device swaps while the other one gets repaired.

If you don't agree with something you do have the option of not bothering to reply to it (particularly when the post is not addressed to you)聽or at least when you do not make silly statements, replies would be a lot shorter and the topic much less of a mess if people weren't so utterly instant of defending Apple to the point of making things up and using hyperbole. You like your MacBook Pros you've had that's great, not everyone is going to like them as much as you do or is going to find faults with them that affect them and maybe not yourself i.e. lack of Ethernet port.

Edit:

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Sorry for participating in derailing this thread. I am so pissed about the way every thread about the M1 evolves in this forum. It is always the same few people that piss at everything positive that is posted here and go lengths to hate and piss at anything Apple has ever done and make fun of it ("lulz haha rofl lmao you can even see keyboard outlines on the screen *insert cringy emoji here*. Sadly, as I said, some Mods do not only seem to green-light this kind of behavior but even actively engage in it.

This is a two way street issue, topics turn in to a mess because of both sides. It's not a single sided issue, so if you are not liking how things are you are both welcome to report replies so a non participating mod can look at the topic, we do not moderate topics we participate in, and also to reflect on your own replies and other supporting view point members. Every time someone raises a valid concern or has a conversation that is not in total support of M1 you and others jump in with wild statements and rabid defense which is extremely annoying. Also if you can't handle a joke about something I personally have seen a lot of that is more a you issue, I was always cleaning Apple screens when doing support jobs on them and it always a keyboard imprint on them from pressure on the lid pushing the screen down to contact the keyboard, it's just how it was.

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12 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ahh just no, so when I said the MacBook Pros before the going to the super thin design were good you just go and ignore that, and the draw backs of having to remove ports I mentioned due to that. And then you have the cooling issues, reparability issues, durability issues (people then to be less careful with devices they do not own).

The current MBPs have literally all ports the vast majority of users need for daily usage. I was giving them a lot of shit for that too when they did that move. 2 years later I bought one and guess what, the only thing I connect to it is the charger. If you want to have a laptop that maximizes port count, is totally upgradebale and so on at the cost of a less appealing form factor, buy whatever you want. But stop claiming the current MBPs are a bad design, because you don't like them.

Cooling and durability issues have all been fixed in the last-gen Intel models. Apple has listened and implemented a lot of changes. If you would actually follow (watching LTT videos suffices) instead of over and over and over again playing the same brooken record, you would know that. As for repairability: Good luck repairing much more on a Carbon X1. It is simply inherent to this form factor that the vast majority of the laptop is on a single PCB.

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So what you are saying is a 2012 MacBook Pro was the size of a mini-fridge? Really come on now stop being stupid. Literally nobody聽ever complained that MacBook Pros of that era were too thick.

Even back then people complained about every little tid and tad they could find on these devices. Literally everything. And yes, measured with todays standards, these devices are quite bulky.

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Here you are displaying no logical at all so I'm not sure I should be entertaining this discussion at all....

Yeah sure. See my other reply in regards to you happily participating in derailing every M1 thread to a general anti-Apple thread.

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well you are the one that accused me of having no experience with using Macs so no it shows that I in facts do not, not at all.

And yet you judge and speak like you are a regular user with much experience. Servicing and using one are totally different things. Especially when only servicing a device, you are heavily biased to only see its negative aspects.

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Oh what rubbish, clearly you've never used HP business laptops and the typical plastic trope pulled out every time, because plastic = bad right? hahaha.

In many aspects, plastic is indeed an inferior building material. Putting "hahaha" behind sentences doesn't exactly increase your credibility, btw.

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And you really think 10-12 hours on the 840 is bad? Or over 12 hours on the 850. Come now, these might have smaller batteries than in the MacBook Pros but you certainly are not having to plug it in all the time.

Sure, 10-12h of battery life on a Windows laptop, more than with a MBP with larger battery and much more vertical optimization. Sure. Literally every review that does objective comparisons disagrees with you. And that still leaves the issue of having to carry a mouse around all times because the integrated trackpad is far worse than then ones from Apple. But hey, next thing is you claim HP has the better trackpads. Sure.

30 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The difference is with HP you get extremely easy serviceability, upgradability for RAM and storage, dGPU support in the small screen models, and still retains useful ports like Ethernet all while not being "too thick" or rather pointlessly thin for zero benefit.

Again, don't project your requirements and what you prefer onto everyone else.

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well simple, because I was talking about companies that people regularly do complain about despite your claim of this only being a thing for Apple. There are numerous news topic threads and other threads on this very forum just about Razor laptops alone, evidence is people complain about more than just Apple.

So my original claim is true: Apple laptops are not any more prone to errors or defects than other manufacturers.

34 minutes ago, leadeater said:

With Lenovo,聽Dell and HP no matter what time of day I log a support request a tech will be onsite the next day and have it repaired on average in about 30 minutes.

That is, if you book and pay their premium bussiness support. Which btw Apple also does offer. I am mainly interested in the situation for consumers. Which is like this: I bring in my device to either an Apple store or an AASP and it gets repaired within 1-2 days, or even same day. We already discussed this in another derailed M1-thread and you stopped replying when I brought this up.

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well you didn't ask and I'm confident you'd find a way to ignore it or rose tint it and ignore rather important factors like above, repair and response times.

I am still waiting for some reliable statistics on which devices break how often. Of course I will not rose-tint it, that is simply BS.

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18 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

We already discussed this in another derailed M1-thread and you stopped replying when I brought this up.

Which topic? I most likely stopped responding because it was pointless to do so and off topic, like this. See my edit to my last post to you. In my point of view there is right now a massive issue of people hearing not supporting comments of M1 or Apple in general and treating those comments as far more than they actually are. It's almost impossible to have a discussion about any aspect about M1 that is not in total support of it or does not contain unnecessary praise without getting someone like yourself replying back attacking and badgering needlessly.

Do you have any idea how annoying and tiresome that is and you wonder why people feel like taking a dig once and a while.

P.S. Not saying you are the worst for that (far from it), just you are the one conversing now.

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I took that same image and upscaled it to 4k with topaz on a old x99 and it took not any time, what are we even showing here? When you do this type of work on a PC it leverages the GPU too that seams way more powerfull to me seeing as you can get a laptop with a full GTX card for <$500. And then you could even do 4k up-scaling on video too on that <$500 pc

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12 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's almost impossible to have a discussion about any aspect about M1 that is not in total support of it or does not contain unnecessary praise without getting someone like yourself replying back attacking and badgering needlessly.

Well, maybe accept the fact (finally) that it is a darn good chip and Apple did an enormous and fantastic engineering job. I know this might be a hard pill to swallow for some people. There is no unnecessary praise; people come up with evidence all the time and then get nitpicked and every piece of evidence gets talked down and deemed irrelevant for absolutely ridiculous reasons most of the time. Best example is this thread.

13 hours ago, leadeater said:

But visually they look nice and like all things if they look good then they must also be well designed and well made聽馃ぃ

This type of comment is what really is unnecessary. Has ZERO to do with the M1. Avoiding these would save yourself a lot of this:

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Do you have any idea how annoying and tiresome that is and you wonder why people feel like taking a dig once and a while.

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25 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Well, maybe accept the fact (finally) that it is a darn good chip and Apple did an enormous and fantastic engineering job.

Exactly my point, I have actually said it is good. But yet when I have a discussion about it and talk about some not so positive things about it or compare it to AMD Ryzen mobile it's taken directly as if I'm saying it is bad when no such thing was said.

Really you actually think I think the M1 is bad, you have not been reading my posts about M1 at all then and doing exactly the thing I pointed to. If my post is not in total support or has even a bit of questioning in it I get this, literally this. And everything good about it I have said gets utterly discarded.

25 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

There is no unnecessary praise;

Yes there absolutely has been.

25 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

This type of comment is what really is unnecessary. Has ZERO to do with the M1.

And your replies also were not? Like I said you have the option to not reply, it wasn't even directed at you and as pointed two way street.

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i mean, if you can't run x86 apps unless supported, isn't really a glorified chrome book? or will it run any x86 apps in conversion?聽

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2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes there absolutely has been.

All I see is legit benchmarks and usage examples that get talked down and deemed irrelevant. Best example: This thread.

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And your replies also were not? Like I said you have the option to not reply, it wasn't even directed at you and as pointed two way street.

Yep, I felt there is a need to reply to posts like yours and the one you were citing in yours because the paint a totally wrong picture. I am not saying I did not pariticpate in this side-discussion, but I think one can expect from Mods to handle such matters differently than you did in your reply that I cited.

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On 11/18/2020 at 6:29 AM, TheReal1980 said:

11 trillion operations per second

As a matter of comparison, my s10e's NPU can to 2 TOPS, so that's a 5.5x faster inference time. Along with how apple pushes forward their own ecosystem and will make every iOS/Mac dev use Core ML, that's pretty neat.

58 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i mean, if you can't run x86 apps unless supported, isn't really a glorified chrome book? or will it run any x86 apps in conversion?聽

AFAIK, it should run most聽x86 apps, apple went聽through great lengths to replicate the x86 memory model on M1 in order to reduce the performance penalty. No other ARM chip would be able to run R2 due to that, but also makes us wonder if such thing will still be available in future models or not.

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On 11/18/2020 at 5:06 AM, saltycaramel said:

Imagine a software ecosystem where that CPU power is the baseline, a given.

Imagine a software ecosystem where that iGPU power is the baseline, a given.

Imagine a software ecosystem where the presence and the speed of that聽Neural Engine is the baseline, a given.

Imagine a software ecosystem where the speed of that Unified Memory is the baseline, a given.

Imagine a software ecosystem that can assume that the slowest internal storage to EVER ship was 2500MB/s.聽

I don't think you understand what the word "software" means.

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This doesn't change really much for developers, other than they now have to compile and test another binary if they want their applications to run cross platform. MacOS has never been a compelling ecosystem for me and the fact that it has the fastest mobile processor doesn't really change, well, anything. I'm glad that Apple users can run applications faster but from a developer's perspective I couldn't really care less. I guess for developers that write code in MacOS they'll like it?

When I develop something it falls into one of two categories:

  1. I can code and test this on a potato.
  2. I want a supercomputer so this will go faster.

In the second case, where performance matters, Apple's M1 chip and package isn't what I'm looking for. I preferably would have threads in the three digits, not one, and all of them are high powered, and it would really speed it up if I had 1 TB of system memory, not 16 GB. For many tasks I often run into the problem of not having enough memory with only 16 GB.

For anything where I need a server I use Linux, because nothing will ever beat Linux server when it comes to performance and reliability. Windows server has a good advantage when it comes to integration when you have a full Microsoft stack but honestly I still like sticking with Linux. It's not like MacOS was used as a server platform anyway, or even reasonably could be.

As for my desktop? Well MacOS doesn't run Valorant so I'll never end up using it as my leisure machine, either. It's not the only program, either.

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Mac-first and Mac-only development will leverage having that hardware baseline.

That hardware baseline will shape the software ecosystem.

Not everything is multi platform race to bottom common denominator.

Don鈥檛 believe this? Look at the iOS/iPadOS software ecosystem.

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15 hours ago, Sauron said:

Things are "revolutionary" when they're useful. I'm comparing it to desktop graphics cards because that's what researchers use for AI, and this isn't even close.

Please, enlighten me on the myriad applications of this.

Point is anyone could develop AI without spending big bucks renting a server or getting a $2000 machine.

And clearly you seem to have never heard of ML and Apple's API CoreML. Any ML accelerated workload will be significantly faster on a thin and light notebook. We dont know it because we've only just seen this stuff on Desktop and it was never a viable option to make a universal app for everyone. Now the difference is you can.

How do you think Apple does on device processing for facial recognition,聽while with Google you have to upload your data? Thats just on iPhones, there's so much more potential in a platform like the Mac, especially if you're a developer

15 hours ago, Sauron said:

I could say the same about you hyping it up despite not understanding what you're praising it for half the time.

Yeah, and it's completely useless. I'm talking about plastic or hard rubber standoffs.

Nah, you just want to find reasons to downplay everything as far as I see - sometimes even resorting to spreading misinformation. We literally got a inexpensive fundamentally different architecture laptop that carries its own significant advantages - but also be able to keep up with existing apps - in fact a lot of the times faster - due to its sheer power. Finding reasons to downplay the achievement because it's Apple is pathetic

7 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

When I develop something it falls into one of two categories:

  1. I can code and test this on a potato.
  2. I want a supercomputer so this will go faster.

Except now the potato in the Mac ecosystem is now a very capable MacBook Air. So in a few very short years your baseline applications for the Mac will be much more powerful - being able to take advantage of NPU and very capable CPU and GPU

Well, these aren't supercomputers and it was never intended to be. I seriously don't understand what is wrong with people here and how difficult it seems to them to understand that this isn't the top of the line computers

Like you go on about two paragraphs about complaining about 16GB. Well, then just wait a few months for the Apple Silicon iMacs and the Mac Pro, the latter of which would have a over a TB of system memory.聽

So both your points makes no sense. Baseline - yeah we got a significant boost and higher ends one haven't come out yet

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Show me more practical use cases that shows this quote-on-quote new technology has that gives it a massive advantage where jumping ecosystems is worth it.

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No iOS developer ever: I wanna be able to test this on a potato android with a bottom of the barrel CPU.

Some here have聽the myth of 鈥渞un anywhere鈥 or 鈥渨hy would I聽develop for that鈥.

For the (many thousand聽strong) apple dev community 鈥渞un anywhere on apple devices鈥 may be enough.

And apple devices have a strong hardware baseline, soon with a Neural Engine in every machine, be it a Mac, an iPhone or even the lowest end education-market聽iPad (recently updated to the A12 with Neural Engine).

The convergence of the Mac with iOS/iPadOS in terms of software development and available hardware could make the Mac聽more compelling than before to people currently developing for iOS/iPadOS.

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16 hours ago, Sauron said:

Things are "revolutionary" when they're useful. I'm comparing it to desktop graphics cards because that's what researchers use for AI, and this isn't even close.

Please, enlighten me on the myriad applications of this.

I could say the same about you hyping it up despite not understanding what you're praising it for half the time.

To be fair though, not everyone is an 鈥淎I researcher,鈥 but lots of people still do work that use ML (and can benefit from hardware acceleration).聽

There鈥檚 tons of workloads that do not really warrant聽GPU acceleration (or, all the work it takes to set that up) that still can potentially see speed up by using hardware acceleration. Heck, if it鈥檚 well integrated into some existing math libraries (numpy? Scikit, etc),聽even some complex math/stats workloads聽might be able to benefit from it too.聽

15" MBP TB

Serenity: Intel 4960x | ASUS X79-E WS | EVGA 2060 KO Ultra | Define 7聽|| Blade Server: Intel 3570k | GD65 | Corsair C70 | 13TB

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10 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Except now the potato in the Mac ecosystem is now a very capable MacBook Air. So in a few very short years your baseline applications for the Mac will be much more powerful - being able to take advantage of NPU and very capable CPU and GPU

Well, these aren't supercomputers and it was never intended to be. I seriously don't understand what is wrong with people here and how difficult it seems to them to understand that this isn't the top of the line computers

Like you go on about two paragraphs about complaining about 16GB. Well, then just wait a few months for the Apple Silicon iMacs and the Mac Pro, the latter of which would have a over a TB of system memory.聽

So both your points makes no sense. Baseline - yeah we got a significant boost and higher ends one haven't come out yet

Look man all I'm saying is that it doesn't change anything for me and a faster machine that I develop on is great, but honestly machines were fast enough that it didn't matter or it matters a lot and I need to ssh into some server and run my code there. The only reason I develop for MacOS is because of client specifications anyway. Swift isn't on my top five languages of choice, but I guess it's better than Objective-C. These wild claims that now there's a "baseline" for developers is silly.

You know what does matter for my specific use case is developing on more than one external display, which is something I do on my current MacBook.

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