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Your Computer isn't Yours

Statik

At least Windows encrypts my data before sending it to the Microsoft overlords. 

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35 minutes ago, Vitamanic said:

Oh my god... the amount of ignorance, melodramatics and unwavering belief in a random blog post here is astounding. Holy shit.

 

This is GateKeeper, an anti-malware service that runs on Mac and has been doing so, known to pretty much everyone, for a LONG time.

Date, Time, Computer, ISP, City, State, Application Hash

 

These are the table headers. From common sense, Gatekeeper should NOT be sending this EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's smart to check against a local database and update that local database every so often; even validating the databases checksum too. Checking the internet EVERY APP LAUNCH for a hash is a waste of time at best and privacy invading at worst. At the VERY LEAST apple should be encrypting this data.

I'm willing to accept Occam's razor, but there are still parts that are inexcusable.

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1 hour ago, jasonvp said:

It's interesting: I keep seeing thie FQDN for oscp.apple.com pop up in various posts, but it's NXDOMAIN.  Not there.  Doesn't exist.  Other than the MX records it inherits from the main apple.com domain.

 

Possible there's some other fun DNS trickery they're doing, but none that I've been able to determine.  Basically it means: nothing can "reach out" to oscp.apple.com if there's no name resolution for said. 

OSCP = Offensive Security Certified Professional. But is that what it means for Apple? Who knows.

 

It's possible there's an authoritative DNS record internal to Apple's corporate network. So I'm wondering if this was for beta / developer testing or some sort. 🤔

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2 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I wonder how far this goes back? Is this present in Catalina? Mojave? High Sierra?

 

Was this spy shit added in Big Sur as a feature, a feature they're gonna call a "bug", or to track analytics for betas? If so, does Catalina and Mojave betas have the same call home feature? I'd also assume maybe iOS betas would have this?

 

I'd like to see this expanded on, this is an interesting topic. A lot of this seems very preliminary. Apple shouldn't say they're privacy focused and force other developers to give detailed reports on tracking when they can't do it themselves.

Since 2012, apparently.

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1 hour ago, rcmaehl said:

Date, Time, Computer, ISP, City, State, Application Hash

 

These are the table headers. From common sense, Gatekeeper should NOT be sending this EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's smart to check against a local database and update that local database every so often; even validating the databases checksum too. Checking the internet EVERY APP LAUNCH for a hash is a waste of time at best and privacy invading at worst. At the VERY LEAST apple should be encrypting this data.

I'm willing to accept Occam's razor, but there are still parts that are inexcusable.

It’s literally how every cloud based anti malware works. It should check every time because that’s the entire point...

 

Further, let’s reduce the alarmist list of data down to what it is instead of repeating the same thing multiple times:

 

Time - Literally any connection you establish online will reveal the time in which it happened. That’s how timekeeping and the internet works.

 

IP - Similar to time, the receiving end of a data transmission needs to know where it’s coming from. THE HORROR. This also in turn reveals your city and state as a byproduct. Again, that’s how the internet works!

 

Application hash - obviously needed to, you know, accomplish that whole anti malware thing. Derp. Your model number is rolled into this so the Apple knows what list it’s supposed to be checking against.

 

That’s all you’re whining about. Time of day, IP address and an application hash. Some of the most basic and required metadata for the internet to function properly. What a nightmare! 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Since 2012, apparently.

That's really awful.

 

And they would've gotten away with it if their server didn't go down and people weren't able to access applications...

 

The main issue then is if they are selling this data. If they're just giving it to the US government, that's bad, but I'd rather have a massive bad-actor that already controls the country I live in than an individual bad actor. That's just the post-9/11 US I live in I guess... But knowing companies, I guess, they're probably just storing it, waiting to get hacked, and then pretending that it was accidentally stored on all of their servers.

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1 minute ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

That's really awful.

 

And they would've gotten away with it if their server didn't go down and people weren't able to access applications...

 

The main issue then is if they are selling this data. If they're just giving it to the US government, that's bad, but I'd rather have a massive bad-actor that already controls the country I live in than an individual bad actor. That's just the post-9/11 US I live in I guess... But knowing companies, I guess, they're probably just storing it, waiting to get hacked, and then pretending that it was accidentally stored on all of their servers.

There’s nothing to get away with. It’s a widely documented feature that’s been around forever.

 

It’s their cloud based anti malware. There’s nothing sinister about it whatsoever.

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2 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

HIS IS A GOOD THING. It’s literally designed to protect you and your data, contrary to the agenda being pushed by the massively misinformed here

To many, it is better to have a conspiracy theory or clickbait. But thanks for your informative information. I think a lot of people like me just dont dig deeper and go by reading a title and commenting but I am glad I randomly read your post by accident and I would never know the real truth.

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4 hours ago, Nowak said:

The difference is that you do know Discord is doing this while you don't know that macOS is.

I thought the issue was privacy? Because strangers knowing what you are doing is true in both cases.

 

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

On discord you actually have to pay for it to show - I think 🤔 

you don't

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2 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

This is GateKeeper, an anti-malware service that runs on Mac and has been doing so, known to pretty much everyone, for a LONG time. This isn’t some kind of conspiracy revelation, Jesus Christ.

Oh wait this is just GateKeeper? So basically like Windows Defender... Why was this such a big story then?

 

Then the only problem I guess is the lack of E2E encryption, and the fact that a down server can kill millions of devices across the globe. This shouldn't run every time you open a program. I could understand one check on an install, but how many times do you need to scan the same app?

 

And I just looked up, GateKeeper started in 2012, just like when this started. But in Apple's defense to protect security at all costs, they make stuff like this as hard as possible to disable. They should've made it easier to turn this shit off. Stuff like SIP shouldn't be disabled by going into a restore partition. That's like booting into a Windows Install image to change system stuff which actually now that I think of it...

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4 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I thought the issue was privacy? Because strangers knowing what you are doing is true in both cases.

 

Yeah but you're comparing a singular app to an entire operating system. Apples to oranges.

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1 minute ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Oh wait this is just GateKeeper? So basically like Windows Defender... Why was this such a big story then?

Sensationalism is the culprit, its a click bait society who want that knee jerk reaction.

 

 

3 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

they make stuff like this as hard as possible to disable.

Shady

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Windows and Mac have been going the way of console software for a while...licenses, subscriptions, locked down, limited, overcharging.

 

Then again, I don't think this particular story's worth the sensationalism.  Like many instances of telemetrics being implemented...you've got to collect data to properly update your product sometimes.

 

Figure privacy's always at odds with security, as strange as that may sound.  Example, you have an app (or even Windows itself) phoning home for the purposes of device location (ex. to locate when lost or stolen) but to do so that data which some may consider violates privacy must be collected.  I suppose it's subjective to each person though in regards to how they feel.  I wish all companies would give us full choice (or were mandated to) though.

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26 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Oh wait this is just GateKeeper? So basically like Windows Defender... Why was this such a big story then?

 

Then the only problem I guess is the lack of E2E encryption, and the fact that a down server can kill millions of devices across the globe. This shouldn't run every time you open a program. I could understand one check on an install, but how many times do you need to scan the same app?

 

And I just looked up, GateKeeper started in 2012, just like when this started. But in Apple's defense to protect security at all costs, they make stuff like this as hard as possible to disable. They should've made it easier to turn this shit off. Stuff like SIP shouldn't be disabled by going into a restore partition. That's like booting into a Windows Install image to change system stuff which actually now that I think of it...

Well GateKeeper is designed for after initial install. Apple checks the certificate upon initial installation. GateKeeper sends the hash whenever you reopen the program to make sure said certificate is still valid. 

 

It's basically to protect against developers injecting malicious code. If Apple finds out that a developer is releasing malicious code into updates or whatever else, they revoke the certificate and GateKeeper will then prevent your system from executing it the next time you attempt to open the program. So for it to work it has to be run every time you open the app.

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tenor.gif.fc8b2aa66b978d8e6dd57eff99b4404f.gif

 

God damn companies that have gross profits higher than most countries trying to double dip their customers.

 

The problem isn't with telemetry in of itself but how they're using that data. These massive companies are using very little of the data they take to actually improve their products while selling off all the more "personalized" data . I get absolutely infuriated by this because they just make it harder for companies or projects that use telemetry for a legitimate and reasonable purpose. There's software like RenderDoc which is a free MIT licensed open source tool for debugging and analysis of 3D render applications which is immensely useful. Which only collects telemetry data on render API usage and user interface usage of it self so that they can make more educated decisions on features and fixes that wholly benefits everyone who uses it. From a software development perspective telemetry data can be invaluable for making informed decisions but Google, Micro$oft and now iSheep are making it so if you're a small developer and you introduce telemetry with full disclosure you'll get chased by the mob with pitchforks and torches for what a few a** holes have done.

 

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9 hours ago, Statik said:

Summary

 

macOS has apparently always has always sent data, unencrypted through to apple (and in turn the US Government), and their latest update circumvents all programs that try to stop it, as well as any VPNs.

,

Quotes

 

My thoughts

Your lack of "online" privacy has apparently carried over to activity you do offline. I think it's safe to say there isn't anything you do ever, that isn't tracked, collected, monitored, shared, etc. It's spiraling out of control and it's very hard to manage. I really hope Linux becomes more viable in the coming years so I can completely make the switch from Windows.

 

Sources

https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/

While I don’t disagree with your thoughts summary, I’m not sure this is particularly good evidence for it compared to other places.  There are some noticeable oddities in  the text. He talks about how the latest version of the OS does this, but doesn’t say whether previous ones did as well.  There’s an extremist feel to the text.  Typing the name of the publication, sneak.Berlin isnt a news channel.  It’s a dude’s website and the dude seems a bit out there. 

9 hours ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Did anyone really trust that Apple did what they claimed and respected the privacy of customers? Cause I sure as hell didn't, and I'm not surprised by this.

Not sure how this isn’t what they claimed.  I notice HOW MUCH data isn’t discussed.  People have requested data from Apple before.  They did get back info but it was nearly nothing compared to other systems.  Microsoft was more but not a lot.  It was Google that had the 4 inch thick paper stacks.  There is an implication that the new OS version is different from previous ones but no proof.  Could be true, might not be.   Couldn’t hurt to check.

9 hours ago, TetraSky said:

And nobody except maybe the die hard Apple fanboys is surprised....

Of course they are gathering data, THEY ALL DO. We just have evidences of it now.

We may have before too.  The provenance of the original article doesn’t strike me as great. It doesn’t prove Apple isn’t the best of a bad lot for one thing.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Nowak said:

Yeah but you're comparing a singular app to an entire operating system. Apples to oranges.

but it tracks basically the same stuff. What difference does it make whether its an app vs OS?

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Just now, poochyena said:

but it tracks basically the same stuff. What difference does it make whether its an app vs OS?

Data access?

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Having worked inside the chocolate factory…this is NOT tracking analytics.  As mentioned above, it is gatekeeper, which is cloud based anti-malware that checks every run to make sure code wasn't injected or a previously OKd app altered by a malicious actor.

 

There ARE options for allowing Apple and 3rd party developers to get some information as part of crash reports when an app misbehaves, but you get asked that during setup and unless the app barfs your personal info when it explodes, there's no personally identifiable information in the report (though there is a randomly generated hash that your system maintains if you enable crash reporting to tie a system to a report, so they can tell if 1 system crashed 1000 times vs 1000 systems crashing 1 time).

 

I am one that likes privacy and not giving out data.  I'd like to be able to disable gatekeeper and similar in an easy way for extra assurance that somebody can't find a way to abuse the minimal data later (that any web server gets most of the same data as) as an attack vector.  But this is definitely NOT nefarious.

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2 hours ago, poochyena said:

you don't

Ah I thought it is because it sure as heck doesn't seem to work for me, guess they just hate phones (can't stream either) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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All my Apple stuff has be 'mine' for more than two decades.

Phone 1 (Daily Driver): Samsung Galaxy Z Fold2 5G

Phone 2 (Work): Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G 256gb

Laptop 1 (Production): 16" MBP2019, i7, 5500M, 32GB DDR4, 2TB SSD

Laptop 2 (Gaming): Toshiba Qosmio X875, i7 3630QM, GTX 670M, 16GB DDR3

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3 minutes ago, RoseLuck462 said:

All my Apple stuff has be 'mine' for more than two decades.

did you read the post?

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7 hours ago, Sauron said:

Remember this next time someone tells you Apple cares about your privacy.

Apple didn't even say they are doing this so no, it can't be turned off by the user. On Windows 10 at least you know for certain that the telemetry exists, even if you can't turn it off.

Yeah, we know that because we learned it on our own, not because Microsoft told us about it openly. Remember how telemetry sneak its way into Windows 7 too? People here really need to stop pissing on Apple coz you're starting too look like idiots on GSMArena who piss on Apple relentlessly in every article.

 

Also while we're at it, how sure you all are Windows Defender or SmartScreen component is not doing the same? Both technically require file hashes to identify whether they are clean or not. I wouldn't be so damn sure Windows isn't doing exact same thing simply due nature of how these two features work...

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12 hours ago, RejZoR said:

You're a bit exaggerating. I'm still using old ASUS Transformer with Atom processor, 2GB RAM and 64GB eMMC SSD. It's shit by every metric, but it's still fine for browsing, Youtube, streaming TV channels from my ISP, viewing photos.

 

I'm also running laptop with Ryzen 2500U, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD (NVMe DRAM-less, but I'm suspecting it's using system memory for buffer) and it's pretty damn snappy. It's like 2 years old now iirc.

Idk im having huge performance issues, compared to windows 7/8.1 that thing was ultra fast and snappy, im not exagerrating, 10 is running really slow on modern low-midrange laptops and its getting worse, i use a ryzen 3 2200u 8gb ram, 256gb SSD and my mother has a similar laptop ryzen 3 3200u 8gb ram, 256gb and they both run just as bad, her's is even worse with random shutdown and blackscreen after spring windows 10 update.

I miss the days when i got my first intel desktop i5 quad core 4570 and 12GB ram and a crappy 60GB SSD, with windows 7 unoptimized and shit was lighting fast everything on google opened in 0.5 seconds windows was responsive, yes with current windows 10 i can watch videos surf whatever, but its soo sluggish and it takes many seconds to load a webpage on 300mbps fiber wifi AC.

You may disagree but my phone is many times faster in doing everything than my laptop. Currently using manjaro gnome and yes i can feel the massive difference from wind10, its snappy, it has proper resource management and doesnt run shit in the background like win10. 

If only developers would give it more love, nowadays with snap/appimage/flatpak they should release their software for all linux distros.

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2 hours ago, RoseLuck462 said:

All my Apple stuff has be 'mine' for more than two decades.

 

2 hours ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

did you read the post?

RoseLuck probably read the title and just posted something. Thats really what it comes down to. I do the exact same thing, whether I copy and paste the title and respond, or dont and just type whatever relating to the title of the OP.

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