Apple Silicon Mac Announcement - Slow Motion Dumpster Fire

[Emily Young]

Apple claims their new M1 processor is powerful enough for their new MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, and Mac Mini – But if you’re an Apple fan, should you be excited - Or very, very worried?

 

 

[Pixel5]

not up on floatplane again?

[hishnash]

I would suggest you look at the WWDC sessions on Apple Silicon platform the macs are in fact more open to customisation and more fine controls on boot security are now an options than other x86 cpu macs. They have now `finally` let you set boot security on a per partition basis rather than machine wide, and yes you can fully turn it off. This is a big deal if you want to have a OS install that you play with (maybe linux) but do not want your main OS install (or cant due to work restrictions) have its security turned down.

[Emily Young]

10 minutes ago, Pixel5 said:

not up on floatplane again?

Processing

[GDRRiley]

meh, lots of claims against like 2016 skylake chips. until I see some vs zen3 especially zen3 apus I don't care

I'm not moving off of x86 anytime soon.

[Mokeysurfer]

I'm really excited to just see how they perform. I don't use apple products nor want to but you have to admit that this is exciting both ways. If they succeed then it will be a amazing achievement and throw the industry for a loop. If they don't then it will be fun to watch.

 

I think normal users are not going to notice a difference and may even get benefits. But people who need power and compatibility are going to suffer and are most likely going to be forced to move. This whole range is kind-of targeted towards normal users and they are most likely going to love it. Prices are still apple but they seem better.

[Spindel]

Despite the clickbaity headline (I know I know Linus has explained a lot of times why they do it) I found this to be a well balanced video given the information available. 

 

I'm still not regretting my order of a Mac Mini that will replace my 7 year old iMac. We'll see if I get buyers remorse after receiving the computer. 

[Jet_ski]

This video was a very long rant against Apple. 

 

If the writer(s) actually bothered to look on Apple’s website, there is way more info on each of their performance claims:

Quote

1. Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction MacBook Air systems with Apple M1 chip and 8-core GPU, as well as production 1.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i7-based MacBook Air systems, all configured with 16GB RAM and 2TB SSD. Tested with prerelease Final Cut Pro 10.5 using a 55-second clip with 4K Apple ProRes RAW media, at 4096x2160 resolution and 59.94 frames per second, transcoded to Apple ProRes 422. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Air.
2. Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction Mac mini systems with Apple M1 chip, and production 3.6GHz quad-core Intel Core i3-based Mac mini systems, all configured with 16GB of RAM and 2TB SSD. Prerelease Adobe Lightroom 4.1 tested using a 28MB image. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of Mac mini
3. ....

there’s way more info but I pasted these 2 just as an example.

 

For instance, the M1 MacBook Pro 13” performance on Shadow of the Tomb Raider is supposedly 2.9 times faster. The Iris Plus GPU would output ~20 FPS in that benchmark, so the M1 should give ~60 FPS. While it’s not comparable to dedicated GPUs, it’s way better than many integrated graphics. 

Quote

Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip, as well as production 1.7GHz quad-core Intel Core i7-based 13-inch MacBook Pro systems with Intel Iris Plus Graphics 645, all configured with 16GB RAM and 2TB SSD. Tested with Shadow of the Tomb Raider 1.0.1 using the built-in benchmark, at 1440x900 resolution, with medium settings. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Pro.

 

[captain_to_fire]

Linus the clickbait... I don’t want to say the word, it’s too brutal. Once again, you are whining over Apple’s statements on which PC they compared their new M1 Macs, whoever wrote the script, you are too lazy to look into the footnotes. If it’s Linus, I know you’re a PC guy but are you really that lazy to even bother looking? 
 

[molszanski]

This overgrown smartphone chip (M1) might show up the fastest single core performance in many benchmarks.

 

Even when compared to latest and greatest desktop CPUs like Ryzen 5950X or i9-10900K.

 

Geekbench V5 single core

 

iPhone 12:  1585

Ryzen 9 5950X:  1630

 

https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/iphone-12-pro

https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-5950x

https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks

 

My guess is that M1 will score ~1650 single core and ~8800 multicore. 

 

 

I think that x86 has been sitting on their ass for years. So sad we don't see Intel and AMD investment into ARM space. So sad the windows is not licensing / selling ARM windows for DIY PC. 

 

Imagine if AMD and Intel would put their brain power and die space into ARM or even RISC-V instead of useless AVX-512 and crap like that.

 

Maybe we could use other benchmarks to compare iphone 12 vs e.g. 5950X?

 

Some ideas:

- https://browserbench.org/JetStream/

- https://chromium.github.io/octane/

- https://browserbench.org/Speedometer2.0/

 

I know that is safari vs chrome engine, but maybe someone has a hackintosh with 5950 to compare safari vs safari.

For those of you who don't know, chrome on iOS has a safari engine inside, and chrome UI outside.

 

 

 

PS. It is insane that we even think about comparing desktop CPUs vs mobile phone chip

 

[mekintos]

aye, many people here see the footnotes lol, as nobody on YT talked about footnotes on Apple website that stated the baseline test for the M1 benchmark is a full-spec MacBook Air i7 CTO model.

 

And also, if you compare the "build" price (with 2TB of storage and 16GB of memory, Core i7 & M1, as Apple stated this machine as their bench system), the M1-based MacBook Air is $200 cheaper than the i7 ones, with performance more than the i7.

 

So in Intel days, $999 just got ya a slow 10th gen i3 MacBook Air. On a AS M1 based one, for $999 you get a machine that faster than the 10th gen i7 MacBook Air (if the performance claims are true tho)

[BuckGup]

Stop with the titles please. You are destroying your public image for some extra cash. Maybe sell a RED instead 

[Uttamattamakin]

Know who predicted this ... me and Peter Paul Chato.  These new Macs are indeed computers  but they are not "Personal Computers".  Not by any metric. Heck the thunderbolt on the Mac Mini does not support an eGPU.   

 

Their ecosystem is going to be so locked down that it will essentially just be an iPad with no touchscreen, that is less portable. 

 

IMHO ARM processored computers made by corporations will never be made as real customizable personal computers.  Small indi non profit things that only super nerds and ultra geeks even know exist not withstanding.  (IF you know that a Rasberry Pi is not edible you are a geek and NO not everyone is a geek now.  Welcome youre one of us now!)

 

My Samsung Note 20 ultra with Samsung Dex is closer to being a personal computer in the sense of the IBM PC than these things are.  I look forward to Samsung putting TB3 on their phones in the next several years or USB4 supporting eGPU's before Apple will.

[Spindel]

25 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Know who predicted this ... me and Peter Paul Chato.  These new Macs are indeed computers  but they are not "Personal Computers".  Not by any metric. Heck the thunderbolt on the Mac Mini does not support an eGPU.   

 

Their ecosystem is going to be so locked down that it will essentially just be an iPad with no touchscreen, that is less portable. 

 

IMHO ARM processored computers made by corporations will never be made as real customizable personal computers.  Small indi non profit things that only super nerds and ultra geeks even know exist not withstanding.  (IF you know that a Rasberry Pi is not edible you are a geek and NO not everyone is a geek now.  Welcome youre one of us now!)

 

My Samsung Note 20 ultra with Samsung Dex is closer to being a personal computer in the sense of the IBM PC than these things are.  I look forward to Samsung putting TB3 on their phones in the next several years or USB4 supporting eGPU's before Apple will.

What did I just read?

[Prodigy_Smit]

 

38 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

My Samsung Note 20 ultra with Samsung Dex is closer to being a personal computer in the sense of the IBM PC than these things are.  I look forward to Samsung putting TB3 on their phones in the next several years or USB4 supporting eGPU's before Apple will.

I may have lost most of my brain cells reading this post. You would have to be drunk to expect a 1st generation chip to have all the features of a CPU that is 10 generations in i.e intel cpus. And if you thing your samsung phone will have good eGPU support in the next few years I want whatever you are smoking. 

34 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

IMHO ARM processored computers made by corporations will never be made as real customizable personal computers.  Small indi non profit things that only super nerds and ultra geeks even know exist not withstanding

Microsoft made an ARM powered computer.

38 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Their ecosystem is going to be so locked down that it will essentially just be an iPad with no touchscreen, that is less portable. 

 

Mac OS and iPad os are very different.

 

[Uttamattamakin]

16 minutes ago, Spindel said:

What did I just read?

The truth.  Apple does  not get to redefine basic terms of computing.  These new... computing appliances of theirs are not "Personal Computers".    A locked down device that some corporation can control ... basically people are paying 1000 dollars to replace a device they control with a thin client...a terminal... to connect to  a mainframe.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Smit Devrukhkar said:

 

I may have lost most of my brain cells reading this post. You would have to be drunk to expect a 1st generation chip to have all the features of a CPU that is 10 generations in i.e intel cpus. And if you thing your samsung phone will have good eGPU support in the next few years I want whatever you are smoking. 

Microsoft made an ARM powered computer.

Mac OS and iPad os are very different.

 

The chips power is irrelevant.  

 

A smart watch has more power than the computer that flew Apollo to the Moon.  That does not make it a better fit to that purpose. 

 

Furthermore the M1 is not really first generation.  This is really a 14th generation ARM chip,  Same as the one in an iPad in every way that actually matters.  

 

Microsoft's Surface Pro X is not a great example to point to.  It is practically limited to only things from that app store since little software has been ported to it.  

 

Who knows maybe I am wrong.  As long as it gets an ARM version of Google Chrome that can do everything a PC user needs.

[Spindel]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The truth.  Apple does  not get to redefine basic terms of computing.  These new... computing appliances of theirs are not "Personal Computers".    A locked down device that some corporation can control ... basically people are paying 1000 dollars to replace a device they control with a thin client...a terminal... to connect to  a mainframe.

Now you are just making up things about what a personal computer is. 

 

"A personal computer is a multi-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and price make it feasible for individual use. Personal computers are intended to be operated directly by an end user, rather than by a computer expert or technician."

 

If these AS macs aren't personal computers then there is no such thing as a personal computer.

 

These Macs might not suit your needs, but currently you are just ranting because change is scary.  

[Energycore]

2 sponsor spots? Dang.

[molszanski]

LTT, dare to benchmark desktop CPUs vs iPhone 12?

That should be very interesting!

 

upd: posted this in the video suggestion section

[Luscious]

Now imagine the shock/horror when Apple places TWO M1 chips in the bigger 16 inch laptop and FOUR go into their cheese grater LOL

 

Because... you know... Apple. I'm not holding my breath.

 

Intel may be beat by AMD on the desktop ATM but they still make decent mobile SKU's. And Apple sure as hell won't have anything to compete with a 64-core Threadripper or overclocked W3175X as far as performance is concerned.

 

No, this new silicon paired with the NEW OS needed to run on it just screams MORE CONTROL by Apple and LESS OPTIONS for the end user. Never mind giving x86 software the finger. Their "ecosystem" is basically a walled garden, except if you look past the greenery, is showing more of the traits of a maximum security prison. Hardly the pleasant experience one would expect.

 

No thanks!

[Drama Lama]

5 hours ago, Smit Devrukhkar said:

Microsoft made an ARM powered computer

just really bad ones

[captain_to_fire]

5 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Furthermore the M1 is not really first generation.  This is really a 14th generation ARM chip,  Same as the one in an iPad in every way that actually matters.  

Not true. While both the M1 and A14 uses TSMC’s 5 nm process, the former has 35% more transistors than the latter. The M1 also has a Thunderbolt controller, the A14 doesn’t have one.
 

Hence, the M1 is a first gen ARM SoC for the Mac. 

[MartinTheActor]

The really big problem I have here is that it's almost impossible to criticise Apple without sounding like you're ragging on them. They've hidden, or not released so much information that everyone is flying blind. Those who trust and like Apple are making claims before investigation, those who are in the middle are baffled by the lack of information, and those who hate Apple are using the lack of info to condemn them.

For those moaning about the footnotes on the Apple website, sorry but they still tell us next to nothing about the clock speeds or even how they handle real world use cases. What they tell us is how good the new devices are against old Apple devices. That's it. With Zen 3 and whatever intel come up with next, or for a more direct comparison, what Qualcomm come up with next they are making some very big claims. Big enough that if I see them advertise in this way in the UK, I'll be putting in an Advertising Standards Authority complaint. You don't get to make claims without the evidence. We haven't seen the evidence yet. Even Apple haven't tested like for like (ARM vs ARM for example) according to their footnotes. Note that they don't define what the 'highest performing notebook' processor is, which I believe is the script writer's point. Note too that they state it's against whatever was commercially available. That's even before we talk about the term notebook and how it's been defined here? It's entirely possible that they're only looking at Chromebooks or HP Stream like devices. In which case we all know that's not a like for like comparison. It's even more deceptive a strategy as people who compare Threadripper with i9s and then claim TR comes off more expensive (ought TR not be compared to Xeon?). I digress though. They're hiding more information that they're sharing. This all stinks of the typical 'Apple Magic' thing (our devices are great because we do something we're going to keep secret so that you believe that there's nothing that could possibly compare because we're so special).

Aside from the drama over the actual capability of these devices, my main concern is over software development. I am baffled that Apple would take such a big risk. What if Abode code their products for Apple Silicon, but their software takes a performance hit because of it? What I don't understand is why the heck they'd take the risk that those developers who code only for MacOS, will continue to do so. Lighting, sound and automation at many event venues are often done by Macs from what I understand. I don't quite understand why when I've always had more success with Linux or Windows software for this purpose. With the events industry hit so hard though, who is going to be buying more licences for new software developed specifically for Apple Silicon devices? Even with Rosetta, it seems like a bad business decision. Or is this Apple realising that they're going to lose the professional users sooner or later and so getting out ahead of the curve and developing for the prosumer market who aren't sat there counting the minutes it takes to render video?
 

[Spindel]

12 minutes ago, MartinTheActor said:

The really big problem I have here is that it's almost impossible to criticise Apple without sounding like you're ragging on them. They've hidden, or not released so much information that everyone is flying blind. Those who trust and like Apple are making claims before investigation, those who are in the middle are baffled by the lack of information, and those who hate Apple are using the lack of info to condemn them.

For those moaning about the footnotes on the Apple website, sorry but they still tell us next to nothing about the clock speeds or even how they handle real world use cases. What they tell us is how good the new devices are against old Apple devices. That's it. With Zen 3 and whatever intel come up with next, or for a more direct comparison, what Qualcomm come up with next they are making some very big claims. Big enough that if I see them advertise in this way in the UK, I'll be putting in an Advertising Standards Authority complaint. You don't get to make claims without the evidence. We haven't seen the evidence yet. Even Apple haven't tested like for like (ARM vs ARM for example) according to their footnotes. Note that they don't define what the 'highest performing notebook' processor is, which I believe is the script writer's point. Note too that they state it's against whatever was commercially available. That's even before we talk about the term notebook and how it's been defined here? It's entirely possible that they're only looking at Chromebooks or HP Stream like devices. In which case we all know that's not a like for like comparison. It's even more deceptive a strategy as people who compare Threadripper with i9s and then claim TR comes off more expensive (ought TR not be compared to Xeon?). I digress though. They're hiding more information that they're sharing. This all stinks of the typical 'Apple Magic' thing (our devices are great because we do something we're going to keep secret so that you believe that there's nothing that could possibly compare because we're so special).

 

Why do you need info on clock speeds when you in the next sentance ask for real world performance? 
 

As it was back in the day when I built my computer with an Athlon XP 2500+ clock speed says nothing about real world performance when comparing different CPU brands. And in this case it means even less since we are comparing different architectures. 
 

And why is it bad that Apple compares performance with their own old systems? Info about the performance of their old systems is plentiful whitch means we actually get an idea about how the M1 will perform. And actually if you read the comparisons at least some of them lists actual real world workloads. 

[molszanski]

2 hours ago, MartinTheActor said:

Big enough that if I see them advertise in this way in the UK, I'll be putting in an Advertising Standards Authority complaint.

 

You don't get to make claims without the evidence. We haven't seen the evidence yet.

https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/iphone-12-pro

https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-5950x