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Trudeau government promises to connect 98% of Canadians to high-speed internet by 2026

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

BR is about to go through brexit which may suck so very hard looking for more than well wishes from that direction may be over optomistic. 

Brazil? Brexit? @_@

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15 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Brazil? Brexit? @_@

Ah.  too many countries that begin “br”. I get the sam problem with airport baggage tags. 
 

yeah Brazil != Britain

 

If Brazil still kind of applicable though.  They’ve been making those cash with rainforest slash and burn which leaves more or less wasteland behind it, and that’s got to run out eventually.  

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While I'm not an expert in government affairs, I'm somewhat confident that Canadian TelCos are already getting some kind of incentive/tax cuts/breaks or some under the table/closed doors type of treatment even before this.

 

So I'm doubtful it'll be successful seeing as how plenty of people get shitty service up and down the ladder regardless of how much you're paying the telecom for your service.

 

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1 hour ago, AkatsukiKun said:

While I'm not an expert in government affairs, I'm somewhat confident that Canadian TelCos are already getting some kind of incentive/tax cuts/breaks or some under the table/closed doors type of treatment even before this.

 

So I'm doubtful it'll be successful seeing as how plenty of people get shitty service up and down the ladder regardless of how much you're paying the telecom for your service.

 

The plan requires the telco to submit an application for an infrastructure project in an uncovered area to get that money, it's not like they're just signing a cheque of 1.75B to the telco.

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Having lived in a small town that didn't have great internet (if any internet at all), that's great news for them. Though, I'd really wonder how many small communities this is going to help. the 2% of Canadians that won't get access under that 98% is still almost 800,000 people. That's a lot of small towns.

 

I've seen some people say the government should be forced to set pricing, supply, etc. I don't agree with this at all. If you're going to do that, you're essentially running the business yourself, and as such, you should own the whole thing. I'm all for government oversight against monopolies etc, but that IMO is overstepping pretty heavily.

 

22 hours ago, williamcll said:

What is their definition of fast? I mean in comparison to Coaxial, Elon's Starlink in Canada is fast with 150Mbps download and 70ms latency.

You can get much faster speeds over cable.

22 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

That doesn't seem like enough money to do much of anything for this type of project?

It's not actually that much work. 35%+ of Canadians live in 3 metro areas, and almost 90% live within 100km of the US border (and thus, likely already have high speed internet, or it wouldn't be expensive to get it to them).

20 hours ago, thorhammerz said:

This. Have fun building on-the-ground infrastructure to link up those tiny communities sprinkled further north - it's mostly muskeg, forest, broken rocks, and tundra. It'd be more efficient to pay for a few extra satellites, but that would be categorized as efficient spending (i.e. not enough money flowing through the fingers of the bureaucrats / consultants / contractors).

🙂

Most of the northern communities probably won't be serviced until much later. They make up such a small percentage of the population, they easily fall into that 2% that they can leave un-serviced and still meet their claims. TBH most people I know that live that far north couldn't give 2 shits if they have internet or not.

20 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I’ve been in southern Canada in the Midwest. There’s this gigantic subterranean mountain range called the Canadian Shield. Incredibly hard pink granite.  Pokes out in a lot of places, and where it doesn’t there frequently isn’t much on top of it.  If they’ve got to lay cable in that it’s gonna be a bitch. 

You can run it on telephone poles. It doesn't have to be buried.

13 hours ago, Franck said:

Yes, very likely 50/10 to 50/50. I don't think it will be any higher download wise.

 

I wish we could have those extremely low prices here but the problem lay in the amount of clients. We do have 1/10 the US population for a very large country which drive infrastructure cost through the roof and us poor customer pay the price. for 75$ USD which translate to 98$ CAD you can barely get 50 mbps maybe 100 mbps. Oh yeah sure if you check the "first year new client" prices you can say oh but i pay 50$ CAD per month for that. yeah the first year. Once that year is passed the price bump by 30$ / month extra. I depend where you live. In vancouver for example they have incredibly low price compared to everywhere else. Go nova scottia and it's terrible, PEI not much better, Ontario in small cities far (2-3hr drive north) from toronto or ottawa as well.

Maybe if you're in a very rural area. I pay $60 for 600 down, and I think it's only another $50 a month for 1 gig. You can get 1.5 gig if you really want for like $165.

It also comes down to bargaining. If you haven't negotiated the pricing of your internet plan, you're doing it wrong.

12 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Actually, when they say "high speed internet", they mean 50mbps down, 10 Mbps up, that's from the Gov page from the program itself, but as you said, they mention access, not affordability, so all an ISP has to do, is have a 50Mbps plan available (for 200$+ per month for exemple) and they would meet the criteria ;

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/139.nsf/eng/h_00006.html

 

The last question on the FAQ pretty much explains it better, they're looking for a 100% coverage of 50/10Mbps internet speed, coverage doesn't mean it'll be affordable ;

 

IMO, affordable internet is more important than speed.

I think most people that live in smaller towns generally have much cheaper expenses anyway, so paying a little more for internet is a lot cheaper than paying the higher prices that go along with living in a city. Something most people seem to forget.

9 hours ago, BuckGup said:

I agree every telecom company is insanely greedy and unethical. I just recently found out huge partner on Youtube like Fullscreen are all owned by telecom companies like AT&T. 

I think that's true for most large corporations, they're mostly there to please investors.

7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

That could  totally not possibly be what happened.  As you well know. Buying a house for 10 million and selling it for 5 million does make -5million,  this much is true.   The only part.  Houses aren’t bought and sold anything like the way you are implying though.  Loans don’t work that way, real estate doesn’t work that way, mortgages don’t work that way.

You could have paid that 10 million in cash. In which case the analogy works. Not everyone buys property with a mortgage.

6 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

ah! I wish !!

 

Still, $50 CAD a month for 100/30 isn't that bad really (IMO)

$50 actually sounds like quite a bargain.

5 hours ago, Orange1 said:

Well how could they do it?

 

Sateliites, sure for remote area's where no roads, no transmission lines are.

 

Fiber Optics where roads are and transmission lines, sure why not.

 

What are the costs associated with each.

Meanwhile, there are more then just some northern communities that have no potable water.

Their buildings are falling apart.

Those communities likely are in the 2%, not the 98%. And, frankly, small communities like that make less and less sense as time goes on.

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Anyone can get a raspberry pi to browse the web for $35 but the internet connection to browse said web is still a problem for some people. 
 

crazy how much effort and work it takes. 
 

I hope projects like starlink are successful 

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2 hours ago, dizmo said:

Having lived in a small town that didn't have great internet (if any internet at all), that's great news for them. Though, I'd really wonder how many small communities this is going to help. the 2% of Canadians that won't get access under that 98% is still almost 800,000 people. That's a lot of small towns.

 

I've seen some people say the government should be forced to set pricing, supply, etc. I don't agree with this at all. If you're going to do that, you're essentially running the business yourself, and as such, you should own the whole thing. I'm all for government oversight against monopolies etc, but that IMO is overstepping pretty heavily.

 

You can get much faster speeds over cable.

It's not actually that much work. 35%+ of Canadians live in 3 metro areas, and almost 90% live within 100km of the US border (and thus, likely already have high speed internet, or it wouldn't be expensive to get it to them).

Most of the northern communities probably won't be serviced until much later. They make up such a small percentage of the population, they easily fall into that 2% that they can leave un-serviced and still meet their claims. TBH most people I know that live that far north couldn't give 2 shits if they have internet or not.

You can run it on telephone poles. It doesn't have to be buried.

Maybe if you're in a very rural area. I pay $60 for 600 down, and I think it's only another $50 a month for 1 gig. You can get 1.5 gig if you really want for like $165.

It also comes down to bargaining. If you haven't negotiated the pricing of your internet plan, you're doing it wrong.

I think most people that live in smaller towns generally have much cheaper expenses anyway, so paying a little more for internet is a lot cheaper than paying the higher prices that go along with living in a city. Something most people seem to forget.

I think that's true for most large corporations, they're mostly there to please investors.

You could have paid that 10 million in cash. In which case the analogy works. Not everyone buys property with a mortgage.

$50 actually sounds like quite a bargain.

Those communities likely are in the 2%, not the 98%. And, frankly, small communities like that make less and less sense as time goes on.

Re: telephone poles

that would help, but it would still suck to do.  Shale granite is hard.  The problem with above ground lines is trees knock them over an animals build nests in the connection boxes and chew on things.  It would require continuous maintenance like all above ground wiring does.  Stuff usually ends up requiring a road be built.  I dunno if they still do corduroy roads in Canada.  Probably one of the last few places on earth that could spend logs like that. 

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5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Re: telephone poles

that would help, but it would still suck to do.  Shale granite is hard.  The problem with above ground lines is trees knock them over an animals build nests in the connection boxes and chew on things.  It would require continuous maintenance like all above ground wiring does.  Stuff usually ends up requiring a road be built.  I dunno if they still do corduroy roads in Canada.  Probably one of the last few places on earth that could spend logs like that. 

Perhaps, but you do realize that the phone poles are already there, yes?

If there's someone living somewhere without phone poles, then they likely don't care about having internet either.

I don't really understand a lot of your points. It's like you're imagining a place that doesn't have infrastructure already in place.

Anywhere someone is living and wants internet already has road access.

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2 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Perhaps, but you do realize that the phone poles are already there, yes?

If there's someone living somewhere without phone poles, then they likely don't care about having internet either.

I don't really understand a lot of your points. It's like you're imagining a place that doesn't have infrastructure already in place.

Anywhere someone is living and wants internet already has road access.

If telephone poles are up and being serviced it’s just a matter of hanging more wire. It also means they already can get DSL though, so there’s a good chance anyplace with telephone poles isn’t being considered. 

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On 11/9/2020 at 7:17 PM, wkdpaul said:

Summary

The Canadian government announced the launch of the universal broadband fund, a $1.75 billion program unveiled in the federal government's 2019 budget. It's goal is to build broadband infrastructure in remote communities.

 

Quotes

 

 

My thoughts

Seems like good news IMO, we're a large landmass with a huge concentration of the population near the US border, so it makes sense that companies won't invest in infrastructure in remote location without incentives. This will help in the long run, if not before.

 

 

Sources

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5794901

 

Government page about the program ;

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/139.nsf/eng/h_00006.html

how is he going to accomplish this especially in remote communities? bold claim

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1 minute ago, progamer21 said:

how is he going to accomplish this especially in remote communities? bold claim

There has been some supposition on that in this thread.  One is some sort of satellite system.  There’s probably a plan though.  The number doesn’t sound very round to me.

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Just now, Bombastinator said:

There has been some supposition on that in this thread.  One is some sort of satellite system.  There’s probably a plan though.  The number doesn’t sound very round to me.

ya idk how a satallite would work especially when they are far away from the satallite

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31 minutes ago, progamer21 said:

ya idk how a satallite would work especially when they are far away from the satallite

Well they’re not exactly close to anyone.  Satellite stuff is the Elon musk star link thing. 

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2 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

Anyone can get a raspberry pi to browse the web for $35 but the internet connection to browse said web is still a problem for some people. 
 

crazy how much effort and work it takes. 
 

I hope projects like starlink are successful 

Physical infrastructure is expensive. Also expensive to maintain.

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2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

If telephone poles are up and being serviced it’s just a matter of hanging more wire. It also means they already can get DSL though, so there’s a good chance anyplace with telephone poles isn’t being considered. 

No because a lot of places the phone lines are too old or too long for even DSL and you're also going to have a very hard time convincing someone with 1.5Mbps DSL that they indeed do have highspeed internet and do not need an upgraded service.

 

Internet over phonelines has only ever been a convenience thing since they already exist but there has always been serious draw backs to doing so, but for many has been the best option even if the only option. DSL service can be very bad for customers at distance from the equipment and maintenance of the copper lines is another serious issue, a lot of them have water ingress issues that don't affected calling but cause internet outages, so rain is a big problem, internet while it's not raining isn't particularly good service.

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1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No because a lot of places the phone lines are too old or too long for even DSL and you're also going to have a very hard time convincing someone with 1.5Mbps DSL that they indeed do have highspeed internet and do not need an upgraded service.

 

Internet over phonelines has only ever been a convenience thing since they already exist but there has always been serious draw backs to doing so, but for many has been the best option even if the only option. DSL service can be very bad for customers at distance from the equipment and maintenance of the copper lines is another serious issue, a lot of them have water ingress issues that don't affected calling but cause internet outages, so rain is a big problem, internet while it's not raining isn't particularly good service.

This was the problem the Obama administration ran into when it tried a similar thing some years ago.  Canada like the US, is big enough that it’s more or less always going to be raining somewhere.  Hanging fiber in the air has its own problems though.  Glass fiber is made of glass, and the plastic stuff doesn’t work as well so it has the same problems if for different reasons.  It can’t be copper in any case.  Copper has gotten too expensive though fiber isn’t any cheaper either. So poles may just not work for very long runs.  Different issue but same problem. As for defining what “high speed” means that’s a whole other can of worms. 

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7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

As for defining what “high speed” means that’s a whole other can of worms. 

Not really, if the delivered bandwidth is below that of commonly used services to be usable then it cannot be called highspeed. If Skype is compressing the hell out of the image and audio so it sounds terrible and you can't really see anything that is not "usable". If you cannot time seek in Netflix or only get the worst video quality and it still buffers that is not "usable".

 

You don't need to set a bandwidth figure, that's a bad way to do it and become outdated. You use different metric that inherently stays up to date as things change over time. Say for example Netflix stop serving 360p quality options, the usability bar has just been raised without having to change a bandwidth figure in legislation somewhere.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Not really, if the delivered bandwidth it below that of commonly used services to be usable then it cannot be called highspeed. If Skype is compressing the hell out of the image and audio so it sounds terrible and you can't really see anything that is not "usable". If you cannot time seek in Netflix or only test the worst video quality and it still buffers that is not "usable".

 

You don't need to set a bandwidth figure, that's a bad way to do it and become outdated. You use different metric that inherently stays up to date as things change over time. Say for example Netflix stop serving 360p quality options, the usability bar has just been raised without having to change a bandwidth figure in legislation somewhere.

This is what I mean.  “High speed” is a relative term.  Defined that way It can never be reached, because it keeps on going up.  It  can mean “multiple times faster than dialup” and still not be what a person might expect.  A can of worms.  

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1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

This is what I mean.  “High speed” is a relative term.  Defined that way It can never be reached, because it keeps on going up.  It  can mean “multiple times faster than dialup” and still not be what a person might expect.  A can of worms.  

The plan sets the minimum at 50/10, under that, it's not highspeed.

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16 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

The plan sets the minimum at 50/10, under that, it's not highspeed.

Obama admin set it at 786kb up or something because at the time the plan was created that was “highspeed”.  By the end it wasn’t though.  50/10 is a speed. “Highspeed” is relative though. 

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11 hours ago, poochyena said:
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The loan, which can be forgiven as long as Nikola hangs on to most of its employees, comes a little more than one month after the startup received a $525 million investment and announced it was becoming a publicly traded company. 

Sounds like the SBA found the necessary collateral required to make this loan.

 

Like I said, most tech startups receive investments, not loans. This one happened to get a loan after investors already got on board, which is what allowed them the necessary collateral required to secure the loan in the first place. Lenders are not stupid. They are not in the business of giving their money away to failing endeavors, not without the means to recoup most if not all of their losses entirely (and in most cases, with guaranteed interest). Your own source leans more in agreeance to my point over yours.

 

At this point, it's really not worth putting in the effort defending your original analogy when it didn't make much sense in the first place. There were far better analogies to make in that context that would have been concrete. It's just bad luck that I happen to have been going through the home buying process at this very moment and felt very jaded dealing with lenders, otherwise I wouldn't have put in the effort of responding in the first place, lol.

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1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Obama admin set it at 786kb up or something because at the time the plan was created that was “highspeed”.  By the end it wasn’t though. 

Seems like in Canada we're changing the highspeed definition as time goes on. In 2016, when internet access was declared a basic service, they declared 50/10 was highspeed (source https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/crtc-internet-essential-service-1.3906664). Oh, and they also said no-data cap was also to be in that basic service (source ; https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/crtc-rules-high-speed-internet-a-basic-telecom-service/article33405960/)

 

Before that, 15Mbps was highspeed (source, from 2011 ; https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/process/2011/ex0711c.htm)

 

 

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

50/10 is a speed. “Highspeed” is relative though. 

it's highspeed though ... not sure what you mean by "it's relative" ? 50/10 is what the CRTC has declared highspeed to be in Canada (and that's likely to change in the future when it's not going to be considered fast enough).

 

 

 

8 hours ago, progamer21 said:

how is he going to accomplish this especially in remote communities? bold claim

He ??? Who?
And what do you mean by "bold claim" ????

 

The government set aside $1.75B for infrastructure projects for remote locations in Canada, it's on the telco's to submit projects to be approved and get some subsidy from that program, did you read the article ?

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How is “high-speed” relative? My grandmother for a time was a holder of the north/south US land speed record. They did it using one of the fastest cars that existed, and using parts of a freeway so brand new that it was unfinished at the time.  It existed only in parts.  They would drive on sections of the freeway when possible and used railway service roads to get from one section to another.  The new land speed record was multiple times faster than the earlier one.  They managed to average 15mph.  Not exactly quick by modern standards but for the period extremely “high-speed”.  She was 17 when the record was set.  She died of old age in the 1970’s. Things change.  How high is high?  Higher than what? “High” is by definition relative.

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9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

How is “high-speed” relative? My grandmother for a time was a holder of the north/south US land speed record. They did it using one of the fastest cars that existed, and using parts of a freeway so brand new that was unfinished at the time.  It existed only in parts.  They would drive on sections of the freeway when possible and used railway service roads to get from one section to another.  The new land speed record was multiple times faster than the earlier one.  They managed to average 15mph.  Not exactly quick by modern standards but for the period extremely “high-speed”.  She was 17 when the record was set.  She died of old age in the 1970’s. Things change.  How high is high?  Higher than what? “High” is by definition relative.

But nobody mentioned 1970's internet standards, and as you can see with the sources I linked to, the CRTC (and I frankly) agree that as time change, the Mbps considered for what is highspeed internet changes ... but again, we're not talking about what was considered highspeed 15 years ago, or what highspeed will be considered in 15 years.

 

So yeah, it's relative with the time you're in, but the CRTC does change those definitions, just like they're changing their definitions of affordable cellphone plans or the data "acceptable"' caps on cellphone plans.

 

I get what you mean now, but you're completely in the left field here, the current, past, and future definition of highspeed isn't what this news is about.

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