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Apple allegedly breaks camera functionality on iPhone 12 when the camera is replaced by an end user

7 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

It's my property, so it's my decision what modifications I make to it. This argument is inane unless you don't believe when you buy something you own it.

No.  Well mostly no.  The argument is inane only if you never resell and pay no attention to service life and amortized cost over time.  Sometimes a more expensive thing is actually cheaper if it lasts twice as long. 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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3 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

It's my property, so it's my decision what modifications I make to it. This argument is inane unless you don't believe when you buy something you own it.

You don't own Apple's product image. As in people bitching about Apple products after they were repaired by questionable parts after being sold as untouched and perfect. People outside the person involved in repairing only know it's an Apple product. They don't know the details who or how repaired the product and if it's working like crap after it was repaired badly, that throws a bad image on Apple, even if it wasn't sold by them. And Apple having strong second hand iPhone market and also trade in program, I understand their reasoning even if entire world whines and bitches how Apple is anti consumer. Or do you expect Apple to disassemble every traded in iPhone and inspect it if it was repaired by questionable parts? Do you want to be a second hand customer buying what should be a spotless iPhone that turns out to be a frankenphone? Reason why most people don't care for Android phones is because they depreciate faster than you can say "this phone is worth next to nothing now". iPhones, not so much.

 

I perfectly understand people who want cheap repairs, but I also understand Apple's side. And unfortunately we can't have it both ways. Only way I can see it being done is phone having "Service History" menu where it logs all the error codes for replacements and tags whether it was official or not. Phone would work with replaced battery, but it would show "Battery replacement (Non official)". This would also double as a checkup for buyers to know if phone was actually serviced if seller claims old iPhone had brand new battery installed. This way there would be no doubt who did what to a phone and when.

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14 hours ago, Orange1 said:

Typical apple product. How do they know its being replaced if the phone is off.

It's Apple, they know everything

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3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Re: there stuff that is reasonable here and there is stuff that is assumptive I think.

I wouldn't say that you are wrong,but i would describe it differently.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

as is common when an arguer wants to insert BS, a reasonable statement is started with which creates a basis of “truth” for want of a better word,  and then it veers.  I’ve seen this a whole lot lately in a lot of places.

No BS here i assure you,just my opinion.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

The issue here for me is time.

Do you mind to elaborate?

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I even agree with the statement about groins and apple fanboys.  The problem though is they aren’t the only sort that exist.  There are also those that are the reverse.  The sort that would complain even even if an iPhone came, to follow the groin analogy, with fellatio. 

I agree with that,there are always the group that likes to complain,and the group that gets abused but ignores it.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

After the first paragraphs the unsupported grand claims and assumptions start: “Apple is enslaving you”

Assumption?,It's based on circumstantial evidence:

The Apple eco-system is made in a way that is difficult to get out without a penalty,Examples:

1.The Apple Watch becomes useless if you quit the eco-system.

2.Air Pods on Android lose auto-pause,no voice assistance support,no option to update the firmware.

 

So if you are heavily inside the eco-system and thinks about quitting,considering what you will lose will discourage you from doing so.

Thus you are enslaved now to the Apple eco-system.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

After the first paragraphs the unsupported grand claims and assumptions start: “ Apple deliberately (that’s a key word there) makes all their physical products disposable”

That one is the best part,a lot of people notice that and with the circumstantial evidence that we all have,there should be no doubt about it once you connect the dots.

 

Apple glues shut their devices,going out of their way to stifle repair,sending easily repairable devices for "recycling",Apple store quotes outrageous prices that are close to the price of a new phone,enough said - connect the dots.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

After the first paragraphs the unsupported grand claims and assumptions start: the word “evil” is used

All of my earlier points are enough to justify it.

 

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

After the first paragraphs the unsupported grand claims and assumptions start: and the big kicker at the end: “poor sheeps” 

It's no claim,nor an assumption - It's a fact,the sheeps are those from the "statement about groins" are poor and deserve better.

 

  

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I could go into why each and of these are manipulated twisted abusive concepts.

Manipulated and twisted? - Everything is manipulated and twisted ,the question is how severe is that?

Personal interests taint everything we do,even charities.

Abusive? - What the hell are you talking about?!

 

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3 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

That's not what I meant at all, and if you finished the sentence you would probably know my complete train of thought. The issue being there is not what "offends" me. Why? We're all humans and humans make mistakes. What separates a good person and a bad person is that a good person will rectify their mistake as quickly as possible to lessen the impact on affected parties while a bad person will lie, deceive, and find a way to get out of trouble. Consequently, since most corporations put money and profits first, they usually tend to be the bad person in the situation. That's what offends me. Not the issue itself, but the action taken to resolve the issue.

 

Saying a product should have no "issues" is basically saying that humans should not play a role in the creation of any consumer goods. There are issues in a lot of products. Some minor, some major. (For Instance, bad RAM chips in early Samsung Galaxy smartphones, bootlooping in LG G series smartphones, and camera issues in the Google Pixel line. And none of these issues were rectified by the offending company, so much for "apple bad", more like "corporations are bad" which we already knew...) Apple gets called out for it for two reasons. One, their response is usually bad or in some cases unapparent (See Butterfly Keyboard or 2010 MacBook Pro), and two, they only release like 4 laptops a year, so any issues they have will take the limelight. It will be much harder to call out HP on a Pavilion 15-329ct (or whatever the hell their naming scheme is), because they release so many laptops, any ones with serious issues are diluted by ones that are fine.

So I assume you must use Arch Linux and a Librem phone, right? You realize that most companies have locked down ecosystems? I hope you have your own mail server because if you use Gmail or Outlook, you're locked down to Google's or Microsoft's ecosystem. Next you start to use Gsuite and buy a Chromebook to use with your Android phone. Oh look, you're now in a locked down ecosystem, except CTRL-F "Apple" and replace with "Google".

 

I don't get why the industry hates the Apple ecosystem but will allow Microsoft, Google, and Samsung to create their own with no issue. Either hate them all or hate none...

Making "all their products disposable" is a large stretch and you know it. What is your definition of disposable? Not having parts? For me if a product is disposable, when you open it you will not be able to put it back together in any working condition. The only Apple product that falls into this category is AirPods, which not many TWS headphones are repairable anyways. Samsung Buds Live, if I recall, are pretty good, but that's about it.

 

Apple doesn't want you to throw your phone away, they want you to come to an Apple Store and fix it. It's not like they're halting any repair process, they're just delegitimizing 3rd party repair by displaying scare messages when you replace a screen or battery. They do that so next time people will go to an Apple Store instead of an independent repairperson's. It's bad, but Apple has been doing this for years, and the industry is starting to follow. But, if they truly wanted you to throw your phone away, why the hell do they support the damn things for 5-6 years? And give Windows XP style security updates to iOS versions they don't support anymore like iOS 12? There's a reason why most Americans keep their phones for up to 3 years, and there's a reason why Apple supports their phone for 5. But no yes you're right. Apple would rather you throw away a phone than trade it in for them to resell it...

Thank you for describing Capitalist America. If you don't like it move to China or Russia I guess...

And to end it off of course insult people for having a preference. Because wanting a product, even from a company as "evil" as Apple, is just sin I assume, unless it's from a company you like.

 

My stance? Buy the product that makes you happy. No company is your friend. Not AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Apple, Samsung, they all have profits in mind. Don't let fanboyism make your purchase decision. Buy the product that you will enjoy using because at the end of the day it's your wallet. 

Moreover, Apple want to keep you in their bubble so you spend more money in  their app store, iTunes, Video etc. It really is not in their interest to make shoddy products that do not last. Only i devices that I have ever needed repaired have been due to physical damage. Going to Apple here costs £49 for a battery replacement for any phone older than the X, and in the unlikely event one newer than that fails it is £69 so hardly expensive. We also have consumer laws on our side here in the EU which are quite robust, Aussieland has similar. SO while in the US, right to repair really does need to happen, in the EU it is probably less of an issue, especially as in many areas there already are right to repair laws. There was a time in Europe that to keep the warranty on your car you had to go to the OEM dealer, now you can get your car serviced and repaired at any qualified garage using third party parts etc and by law it does not effect the warranty. 

 

Back to Apple, while I am sure their phones and iPads are not loss leaders, they are probably low profit items in themselves as Apple know they will make money through all their subscription services, apps, music and advertising. So keeping the devices ticketyboo is in their interests.

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15 hours ago, Orange1 said:

Typical apple product. How do they know its being replaced if the phone is off.

The serial number

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As long as others don't follow suit apple can solder their phones together for all I care. The most I've seen so far is Samsung doing something with the under-screen fingerprint sensor in the A51 and A71.

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15 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

No need to get parts for about any other phone from AliExpress, with Samsung and Motorola they either sell parts directly or you can easily find replacement parts.

Thanks to all those DRM locks you can't even service an iPhone, definitely not a good thing that you're forced to go to an Apple store for something that should be rather easy like swapping out a battery or camera sensor.

Fun Fact: You don't have to go to an Apple store to get serviced. There are plenty of non-apple-store AASPs out there, Apple's support page even lists them!

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6 minutes ago, PocketNerd said:

Fun Fact: You don't have to go to an Apple store to get serviced. There are plenty of non-apple-store AASPs out there, Apple's support page even lists them!

I think he talked about servicing the device yourself as a customer.

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1 hour ago, Vishera said:

I wouldn't say that you are wrong,but i would describe it differently.

 

No BS here i assure you,just my opinion.

 

Do you mind to elaborate?

 

I agree with that,there are always the group that likes to complain,and the group that gets abused but ignores it.

 

Assumption?,It's based on circumstantial evidence:

The Apple eco-system is made in a way that is difficult to get out without a penalty,Examples:

1.The Apple Watch becomes useless if you quit the eco-system.

2.Air Pods on Android lose auto-pause,no voice assistance support,no option to update the firmware.

 

So if you are heavily inside the eco-system and thinks about quitting,considering what you will lose will discourage you from doing so.

Thus you are enslaved now to the Apple eco-system.

 

That one is the best part,a lot of people notice that and with the circumstantial evidence that we all have,there should be no doubt about it once you connect the dots.

 

Apple glues shut their devices,going out of their way to stifle repair,sending easily repairable devices for "recycling",Apple store quotes outrageous prices that are close to the price of a new phone,enough said - connect the dots.

 

All of my earlier points are enough to justify it.

 

It's no claim,nor an assumption - It's a fact,the sheeps are those from the "statement about groins" are poor and deserve better.

 

  

Manipulated and twisted? - Everything is manipulated and twisted ,the question is how severe is that?

Personal interests taint everything we do,even charities.

Abusive? - What the hell are you talking about?!

 

Re: opinion.  

But it reads like BS. Declarative statements are not opinions.

 

re: elaboration

I already did.  To do it again though, a few days is too short a time to expect action or even an answer on this sort of thing from a company as large as Apple. It will take them multiple days minimum to even confirm that it is happening let alone even figuring out why even if it was intentional.   It’s too early.

 

re: assumption.
Exactly.  It’s arguable it’s not even based on that.  The examples offered

A: were not offered originally

B: still suck when compared to similar types of systems

 

Re: the rest of it

a combination of assuming previous statements are true, outright misstatement, and defense of misstatement as “everybody does it” 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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46 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I think he talked about servicing the device yourself as a customer.

Yes I meant do it yourself servicing which should be an option with phones, at least with the battery, screen, and cameras in case the phone is accidentally dropped or something fails.

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47 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I think he talked about servicing the device yourself as a customer.

But how many of us techies even do that? People love to say that they want to service devices themselves, but most of them find it too much of a hassle and just take it as an excuse to upgrade to something new. Laptop displays are dead easy to replace, has been for a long time. Panels are readily available online, but many people don't even bother. They just end up buying a new laptop and trashing the old one. 

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Due to how it bugs out it makes me thing that this is not due to some `anti repair` action but rather due to memory binning.

with these HDR 4k 60fps cameras the data rate is so high that the cameras controller will not be righting directly to the LPDDR on the SOC it will instead writ to a local HBM chip that is part of the carama module.  Then the CPU will read from this memory and do all the image signale magic. 
 

However the `buffer` memory will be large enough that it will have manufactoring defects (all memory does) at the factory these will be mapped out and the memory controller of the camara will ignore these bad sectors.  In a PC or other high power device when the CPU would go to read this data it would talk over a high level protocol (like PCIe) to the camaras memory controller that would understand this bad sector map. However in a low power device this will end up using a `lot` of power, so i would expect the CPU instead reads directly from this memory buffer rather than routing its read operations through the camara controller (that will already be under loads as it is recording the next frame). So the system CPU needs to have the same understanding of the `bad` sectors. This is likely paird at the factory. Maybe doing a firmware re-set will result in the SoC re-syncing its knowledge from the Camara module to its local knoldege base we will have-to see.

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This isn't a "bug", this behavior is intentional by apple to stop people from repairing their phones.

Anyone that watches Louis Rossmann already knows this.

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Apple does this ALL the time, its only until they're caught do they go "Oops our bad, here is a update that fixes it" before they get a lawsuit sitting on their doorstep.

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1 hour ago, GoldSrc said:

This isn't a "bug", this behavior is intentional by apple to stop people from repairing their phones.

Anyone that watches Louis Rossmann already knows this.

See this is the problem.  We don’t actually know that yet.  Does Rossman think so?  Undoubtedly.  Rossman has a long history of locking horns with Apple though, and he gets a lot of return for doing it.  and while he has brought to light some really important stuff in the past he has been wrong a few times too.  I don’t know if it isn’t true but I also don’t know if it is.  Is it possible? Sure.  But so are space aliens. If there’s no reaction by Apple in a reasonable amount of time it may be reasonably be concluded that this is the case.  The thing is though mere days after a product launch something like this pops up it could be any of several things, and Gigantic corporations can’t necessarily act very fast.  Do I think buyers are due a why and a wtf is going on and probably a “we’ll fix that”? Sure.  But all this “theyre evil bastards!” Stuff is premature in this case.

 

P.s. I had to write “due” 3 times.  The first time autocorrect changed it to “do” and the second time to “die”.  How is this faster?  Ihateautocorrect.

Edited by Bombastinator

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The video is nonsense. From a security perspective you don’t want someone to be able to replace a camera module on your devices. Imagine someone getting their phone repaired only to find out later there’s a malicious chip in the camera module.
 

20 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I’ve made a practice of not watching Rossman videos when they’re thrown at me in multiples since the last time someone threw like 40 minutes of them on the forum the last time something came up.  It was the beats headphone thing I believe.  I’ve watched a lot of rossman videos.  He’s a very smart very angry guy who makes a really really good living bashing Apple.  His disciples and his extremely aggressive style have earned him a richly deserved “I don’t waste my time” from me on those.

Yup. 100%.

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On 10/29/2020 at 10:48 PM, Jet_ski said:

The video is nonsense. From a security perspective you don’t want someone to be able to replace a camera module on your devices. Imagine someone getting their phone repaired only to find out later there’s a malicious chip in the camera module.
 

Yup. 100%.

I agree. You should not repair your car, or even your home... the repair person, even from the manufacture, might be rogues and put secret spying stuff in them.

I don't even do my oil change in my car, I just buy a new car each time.

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4 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I agree. You should not repair your car, or even your home... the repair person even forms the manufacture, might be rogues and put secret spying stuff in them.

I don't even do my oil change in my car, I just buy a new car each time.

There might be a dealer willing to change your oil for a few.  It won’t be especially cheap, but not as bad as a new car.  Just saying.

 

I had an uncle that ran a soap dish Porsche racer out of oil once in the fifties.  My dad mentioned it to me many years later as an indictment of my uncle. I never even saw a pic of the thing and merely knowing it happened once offends me conceptually.  

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2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I agree. You should not repair your car, or even your home... the repair person even forms the manufacture, might be rogues and put secret spying stuff in them.

I don't even do my oil change in my car, I just buy a new car each time.

I think using "security" as a reason is a terrible excuse, like any reputable repair shop aren't going to waste their time putting malware into phones, and anyone could be putting malware onto a phone, not just some third party service.

And once apple locked down batteries, people defended it with what if someone uses a crap quality battery, that wouldn't be so much of a problem if apple were willing to sell batteries and didn't use DRM to pair the phone with the battery.

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1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think using "security" as a reason is a terrible excuse, like any reputable repair shop aren't going to waste their time putting malware into phones, and anyone could be putting malware onto a phone, not just some third party service.

And once apple locked down batteries, people defended it with what if someone uses a crap quality battery, that wouldn't be so much of a problem if apple were willing to sell batteries and didn't use DRM to pair the phone with the battery.

To be fair crap batteries can kill people and do it pretty ugly.  A camera won’t do that though.

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12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I agree. You should not repair your car, or even your home... the repair person even forms the manufacture, might be rogues and put secret spying stuff in them.

I don't even do my oil change in my car, I just buy a new car each time.

Actually if this scenario was applied to Apple’s case, the oil could be changed in your car and would work 100% fine, but every time you start, stop, or change gear, you get a warning on your dash that non-genuine oil can ruin your car.

 

And there would be a problem with the transmission or engine that would take a class action lawsuit for them to acknowledge.

 

Like i said in one of my posts, the only thing I argue security with is Touch ID and Face ID. I am 100% for them pairing that to the phone, that can actually be used maliciously (remember, companies make brute force iPhone breakers for the FBI to use... it’s actually a realistic scenario), but you’re pulling at straws for a camera or screen replacement to be rouge. I feel like the chip in the iPhone would just reject all incoming data coming from it that it doesn’t expect anyways.

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5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

To be fair crap batteries can kill people and do it pretty ugly.  A camera won’t do that though.

I can see how “iPhone catches fire!” would be the headline instead of “Faulty 3rd party battery catches fire” and how Apple will get bad press for something out of their control. At least if this message is there, they can say “hey it’s not our fault”. Like I said earlier, these messages aren’t here to stop 3rd party repair, they’re here to delegitimize it. What’s worse? Up to you to decide.

 

But honestly if you live near an Apple store there’s no reason not to get your battery replaced there. It’s like $69 for labor + parts for a fully working genuine battery and a genuine waterproof seal? vs the iPhone 11 Pro Max battery costing $89 from iFixIt, not even including tools and time. 

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28 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

To be fair crap batteries can kill people and do it pretty ugly.  A camera won’t do that though.

While crappy batteries can be dangerous there isn't any stopping companies from counterfeiting things like batteries, if Apple would actually sell batteries I think there would be less incentive for there to be counterfeit batteries. I can change the oil in my own car, I realize car manufacturers are trying to make it difficult as possible by removing the oil dipstick, or making the oil drain plug as inconvenient as possible to access, but I can still do it and my car isn't going to explode and the dealer won't charge me for a new engine because I did it myself.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

See this is the problem.  We don’t actually know that yet.  Does Rossman think so?  Undoubtedly.  Rossman has a long history of locking horns with Apple though, and he gets a lot of return for doing it.  and while he has brought to light some really important stuff in the past he has been wrong a few times too.  I don’t know if it isn’t true but I also don’t know if it is.

There is proof Apple is doing this on purpose, and because Apple has a reputation for making their phones unrepairable on purpose, and because Apple suddenly decides to pair the camera to the phone, while the previous iphone 11 did not have the camera locked into the phone. Have you seen the Hugh Jeffreys video? They swapped a camera sensor from another new iphone 12 and it did not function the same, clearly Apple is doing it to get customers to go into the store if their camera gets damaged.

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3 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I can see how “iPhone catches fire!” would be the headline instead of “Faulty 3rd party battery catches fire” and how Apple will get bad press for something out of their control. At least if this message is there, they can say “hey it’s not our fault”. Like I said earlier, these messages aren’t here to stop 3rd party repair, they’re here to delegitimize it. What’s worse? Up to you to decide.

 

But honestly if you live near an Apple store there’s no reason not to get your battery replaced there. It’s like $69 for labor + parts for a fully working genuine battery and a genuine waterproof seal? vs the iPhone 11 Pro Max battery costing $89 from iFixIt, not even including tools and time. 

I didn’t t say “catches fire” I said “kill someone” holding an exploding battery to your face has similarities to holding an exploding hand grenade to your face.  There is photography of the kind of damage it causes.  Stuff I won’t post because it’s too graphic.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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