Apple allegedly breaks camera functionality on iPhone 12 when the camera is replaced by an end user

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’ve made a practice of not watching Rossman videos when they’re thrown at me in multiples since the last time someone threw like 40 minutes of them on the forum the last time something came up.  It was the beats headphone thing I believe.  I’ve watched a lot of rossman videos.  He’s a very smart very angry guy who makes a really really good living bashing Apple.  His disciples and his extremely aggressive style have earned him a richly deserved “I don’t waste my time” from me on those.

I don't particularly share the same "disgust" (if you will) for Rosmann that you do, but I do disagree with some things he says.

 

One of the biggest things I disagree with is how Apple always replaces whole units. Instead of fixing a Tristar chip, they replace whole logic boards. The problem is at Apple's scale, you cannot train thousands of Louis Rosmanns to work at stores across the globe. Not only would that take too much time, but it would also cost too much money. I assume it's much cheaper for Apple to teach people how to unscrew/remove adhesive rather than to use flux and do magic (I'll admit watching Rosmann fix a computer is a feat of its own). That might also be why Apple products are repair-ready but aren't "repairable". Most things are a screw away, making it easy for an AASP or Genius to replace maybe a screen or a top case. Even ifixit rated the iPhone 12 3 points above the Note 20 Ultra. If Apple wanted to, at a flip of a switch, they could really have something on their hands. But currently when the end user tries to repair something, they try to lock it down, making it "unrepairable". I also assume its much easier to ensure a logic board replacement fix than just replacing one chip.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

so you're saying even though you don't accept citations and sources provided and ignore regardless of the facts because facts hurt your feelings and yet say something contradictory or false as you didn't go through the provided links because of you personal bias, feels that way to me but that's outside the scope of this conversation, now if you have anything on the topic or response to the related video which was on topic i'm open to discuss. 

I’m saying I don’t waste ridiculous amounts of time listening  to rossman unless there is something else supporting him.  I’ve done it before. He’s cried wolf one too many times for me.  He might be saying something true.  Rossman is quite knowledgeable.  He’s partisan though and has gotten moreso over time.  there’s a long history of him aiming attacks against Apple.  There hasn’t been an even vaguely reasonable time for Apple to even respond though so it doesn’t matter either way.  If this is still a thing two weeks from now it may become worth watching.    

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

37 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

To be fair who breaks their camera this early and isn’t under warranty.

With this stuff it's usually about principle I guess. "First the screen, then the camera? What next, the lightning port?!" sorta mentality.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I don't particularly share the same "disgust" (if you will) for Rosmann that you do, but I do disagree with some things he says.

 

One of the biggest things I disagree with is how Apple always replaces whole units. Instead of fixing a Tristar chip, they replace whole logic boards. The problem is at Apple's scale, you cannot train thousands of Louis Rosmanns to work at stores across the globe. Not only would that take too much time, but it would also cost too much money. I assume it's much cheaper for Apple to teach people how to unscrew/remove adhesive rather than to use flux and do magic (I'll admit watching Rosmann fix a computer is a feat of its own). That might also be why Apple products are repair-ready but aren't "repairable". Most things are a screw away, making it easy for an AASP or Genius to replace maybe a screen or a top case. Even ifixit rated the iPhone 12 3 points above the Note 20 Ultra. If Apple wanted to, at a flip of a switch, they could really have something on their hands. But currently when the end user tries to repair something, they try to lock it down, making it "unrepairable". I also assume its much easier to ensure a logic board replacement fix than just replacing one chip.

I’m not disgusted by Rossman.  I just remember that he’s got a multi million dollar axe to grind.  I don’t begrudge him that axe, or it’s value.  I think it’s totally fine that he’s got his own chain of repair stores and pile of employees.  Good even.  It doesn’t mean the axe doesn’t exist though. He does come up with insightful stuff occasionally.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bombastinator

[Blademaster91]

8 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I don't particularly share the same "disgust" (if you will) for Rosmann that you do, but I do disagree with some things he says.

 

One of the biggest things I disagree with is how Apple always replaces whole units. Instead of fixing a Tristar chip, they replace whole logic boards. The problem is at Apple's scale, you cannot train thousands of Louis Rosmanns to work at stores across the globe. Not only would that take too much time, but it would also cost too much money. I assume it's much cheaper for Apple to teach people how to unscrew/remove adhesive rather than to use flux and do magic (I'll admit watching Rosmann fix a computer is a feat of its own). That might also be why Apple products are repair-ready but aren't "repairable". Most things are a screw away, making it easy for an AASP or Genius to replace maybe a screen or a top case.

I think apple definitely could do micro soldering level work, apple definitely has the money to do so, and since apple says they care about the environment it would would be the more eco friendly thing to do than having entire boards getting thrown out.

11 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Even ifixit rated the iPhone 12 3 points above the Note 20 Ultra. If Apple wanted to, at a flip of a switch, they could really have something on their hands. But currently when the end user tries to repair something, they try to lock it down, making it "unrepairable". I also assume its much easier to ensure a logic board replacement fix than just replacing one chip.

I feel iFixit scoring is flawed when their rating gives Apple points for "repairabilty" even though it's only serviceable when you have the proprietary tool to re-pair the camera to the phone. I'm not sure if it a entire logic board replacement would be any more reliable than just replacing the broken chip, if the rest of the board is free of issues.

[Drama Lama]

Why am I not surprised by this?

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think apple definitely could do micro soldering level work, apple definitely has the money to do so, and since apple says they care about the environment it would would be the more eco friendly thing to do than having entire boards getting thrown out.

Budgets and allocations. It does cost alot to train your entire workforce to do something as complicated and time consuming as board-level repair. And for a company with a reputation on the line, that certification does nd to be reverified, so multiply that by every 2-3ish years.

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I feel iFixit scoring is flawed when their rating gives Apple points for "repairabilty" even though it's only serviceable when you have the proprietary tool to re-pair the camera to the phone. I'm not sure if it a entire logic board replacement would be any more reliable than just replacing the broken chip, if the rest of the board is free of issues.

Isn't that what the iFixit teardown score is about? Serviceability? Apple's components are mostly held in by screws or easily removable adhesive (look at the battery pull tabs), and their boards are all componentized, making a theoretical repair easier than it all being on one board. The problem is that they don't sell them. But I don't think that iFixit's scoring is wrong. Have you tried to take apart a Samsung phone? You might as well be trying to break into a high security penitentiary.

[Video Beagle]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

and since apple says they care about the environment it would would be the more eco friendly thing to do than having entire boards getting thrown out.

They don't get thrown out.. they get repaired off a customer clock and sold in the refurb store. Original customer walks away with a phone fixed via replacement part or whole, and the old part is fixed and sold at a discount.

 

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

so you're saying even though you don't accept citations and sources provided and ignore regardless of the facts because facts hurt your feelings and yet say something contradictory or false as you didn't go through the provided links because of you personal bias, feels that way to me but that's outside the scope of this conversation, now if you have anything on the topic or response to the related video which was on topic i'm open to discuss. 

No I didn’t say that.  Even remotely.  Slapping a video link on a forum doesn’t give it instant credibility or force people to watch it. 
 

Feelings have little to do with anything here.  I’m saying it hasn’t been long enough for any kind of valid complaint.   I am saying I’m sick of people papering the walls with way too much video and whining when people don’t spend large amounts of time watching them when there is no reason to do so.  I also scrub through video ads quite often.  This is all I see them as being since there is no possible way they could have any relevance to this issue given the time frame.  It doesn’t help that this is not the first time I have seen this done.  The posting of the videos did not make the video subject more credible.  It made them less credible.  And it gets worse and worse not better and better.

 

The concept of “I am right because you didn’t waste your time on my ad” is silly. 

[Loote]

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

you can be assured you're not getting a frankenphone fixed by cheap crap from AliExpress and then sold as pristine perfectly working, unmodified iPhone.

Apple replacement stuff is often refurbished and sometimes not even working, the 'Geniuses' have a record of misidentifying what's wrong and making the customer pay for their mistakes. It is not the utopia they claim to be and the chance of getting a frankeniphone is actually high because the resell value makes it really profitable to play with things. Might also be the reason why they block more and more elements, imagine buying a used iphone 11 pro with a shitty replacement screen...

[Distinctly Average]

Playing devils advocate here a bit. With proper cameras replacing the sensor is far from easy. In some cases it has to be calibrated afterwards, not just so it is on the correct plane to the lens, but also as voltage outputs vary etc. I do wonder if this is the case here, and that the camera which includes the sensor requires some calibration to give in spec results.

 

I've replaced lots of iPhone screens over the years, probably over 30 for friends but mainly for one of my daughters who went through a prolonged period of miss-haps (due to medical reasons I might add) so I have seen just how much the quality varies. Some were garbage, much cheaper glass and poor quality lcd etc. I certainly would not be happy is I bought a second hand phone at a decent price and discovered one of those crappy screens fitted. Again, some of the "knock off" screens are very good so I cannot tar all with the same brush. Batteries, you can change them albeit with a warning in a sub menu in settings, nowt wrong with that IMO.  If Apple are trying to control quality somewhat I can understand although I am not sure the way it is being done is good.

[kelvinhall05]

5 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

So... most functions still work with the swapped camera? And the enormous jump that everyone is taking is that Apple is intentionally is only breaking 10% of camera functionality just because... why not?

 

If they wanted to actually break the functionality, they'd break all of it, not just portrait mode for giggles. The more likely scenario is that there's a bug somewhere down the line or some kind of factory calibration that's missing once the camera is swapped.

Clearly you're missing the hurr durr apple bad!!1! mentality of this forum.

 

This seems like a software bug to me, not something to prevent repair lol.

[RejZoR]

19 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Clearly you're missing the hurr durr apple bad!!1! mentality of this forum.

 

This seems like a software bug to me, not something to prevent repair lol.

I dare you to come to GSM Arena if you really want to see true Apple hating. Or if you want a hard laugh. People there are absolutely obsessed with Apple, but from the other end. This here on LTT is nothing. Occasional Rossman video and few people taking a jab at Apple and that's it. If I defend Apple for things, it's rarely anything in response. On GSM Arena, you can expect waves and waves of whiners with BS arguments pissing on Apple and no argument will ever convince them otherwise.

[Vishera]

6 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I'm generally not offended by the fact that the issue is there.

When you buy a product it should not have any issues,if it does have an issue the manufacturer has an obligation to fix it.

The problem is that Apple cultists would not be "offended" even if Apple kicked them in the balls and laughed at them.

 

Generally i dislike Apple products,I like the freedom to tinker with stuff and be free from any closed down eco-system and other restrictions.

I also like good quality internal components,Apple is enslaving you by binding you to their products,eco-system etc.

And not to mention that Apple deliberately makes all of their physical products disposable and stifling repair - hoping that you will throw your phone to the garbage and buy a new one rather than replacing the old battery in it or fix any other issue it may have.

 

Apple is no saint,it has a lot of evil in it with the end goal of satisfying their greed that will never be satisfied.

 

Poor sheeps...

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

2 hours ago, kelvinhall05 said:

This seems like a software bug to me, not something to prevent repair lol.

It is not a bug, it's a deliberate design by Apple, all you have to do is look for the evidence, there are people clearly missing this point with their replies 

[MoozOfDoomz]

8 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

snip

So I've been watching a ton of Louis Rossmanns stuff and its great. What apple is doing is genuinely sickening. The soul of apple died with Steve Jobs. 

1 hour ago, Vishera said:

snip

And Apple claims that by removing the power adapter and headphones in the Iphone 12 that they are "saving the planet" and "going green" like, what?

[spartaman64]

ah yes apple who is super concerned about the environment btw would rather you throw away your phone and buy a new one than getting it fixed

[RejZoR]

People here seem to have no concept of supply chains and quality control. All the "Apple Geniuses are imbeciles who don't know shit" and "they keep breaking things or not fixing them right" are all things spread by people who know people who knew someone who said X happened to him. I can dish out bunch of same stuff for every brand and you always have to take all of them with grain of salt because salty people often overblow things totally out of proportions to a point their claims are straight up lies.

 

Sorry, but you just won't sell me nonsense that official service broke the device while in service and user had to pay for it and that's somehow just a common thing that's just happening all the time. Coz we all know that shit wouldn't fly and there would be outrage all over the media if it happened.

 

Can't wait to be branded yet again as Apple fanboy, but when things seem randomly broken after "repair" the last thing would be jumping to conclusions that Apple did it on purpose. When Apple does something on purpose it will say "Unauthorized camera replacement" or something inside iOS itself. Not just randomly broken selective features in it. That to me raises questions whether it's something related to inverted stabilization system which is used on new iPhones (where sensor is shifted instead of the lenses). People fixing them using old approach not taking that into account or other calibrations required with such systems is what I'd suspect first. But no, lets just go full on accusing Apple of things because that's what anyone should and will do every fucking time something happens. Coz Apple bad, everyone else good. The usual mentality of people. It's why I don't bother watching Rossman. I'm sure he's right about some things, but his raging hatred for Apple makes him so biased I can't take him seriously anymore.

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

3 hours ago, Vishera said:

When you buy a product it should not have any issues,if it does have an issue the manufacturer has an obligation to fix it.

The problem is that Apple cultists would not be "offended" even if Apple kicked them in the balls and laughed at them.

That's not what I meant at all, and if you finished the sentence you would probably know my complete train of thought. The issue being there is not what "offends" me. Why? We're all humans and humans make mistakes. What separates a good person and a bad person is that a good person will rectify their mistake as quickly as possible to lessen the impact on affected parties while a bad person will lie, deceive, and find a way to get out of trouble. Consequently, since most corporations put money and profits first, they usually tend to be the bad person in the situation. That's what offends me. Not the issue itself, but the action taken to resolve the issue.

 

Saying a product should have no "issues" is basically saying that humans should not play a role in the creation of any consumer goods. There are issues in a lot of products. Some minor, some major. (For Instance, bad RAM chips in early Samsung Galaxy smartphones, bootlooping in LG G series smartphones, and camera issues in the Google Pixel line. And none of these issues were rectified by the offending company, so much for "apple bad", more like "corporations are bad" which we already knew...) Apple gets called out for it for two reasons. One, their response is usually bad or in some cases unapparent (See Butterfly Keyboard or 2010 MacBook Pro), and two, they only release like 4 laptops a year, so any issues they have will take the limelight. It will be much harder to call out HP on a Pavilion 15-329ct (or whatever the hell their naming scheme is), because they release so many laptops, any ones with serious issues are diluted by ones that are fine.

4 hours ago, Vishera said:

Generally i dislike Apple products,I like the freedom to tinker with stuff and be free from any closed down eco-system and other restrictions.

I also like good quality internal components,Apple is enslaving you by binding you to their products,eco-system etc.

So I assume you must use Arch Linux and a Librem phone, right? You realize that most companies have locked down ecosystems? I hope you have your own mail server because if you use Gmail or Outlook, you're locked down to Google's or Microsoft's ecosystem. Next you start to use Gsuite and buy a Chromebook to use with your Android phone. Oh look, you're now in a locked down ecosystem, except CTRL-F "Apple" and replace with "Google".

 

I don't get why the industry hates the Apple ecosystem but will allow Microsoft, Google, and Samsung to create their own with no issue. Either hate them all or hate none...

4 hours ago, Vishera said:

And not to mention that Apple deliberately makes all of their physical products disposable and stifling repair - hoping that you will throw your phone to the garbage and buy a new one rather than replacing the old battery in it or fix any other issue it may have.

Making "all their products disposable" is a large stretch and you know it. What is your definition of disposable? Not having parts? For me if a product is disposable, when you open it you will not be able to put it back together in any working condition. The only Apple product that falls into this category is AirPods, which not many TWS headphones are repairable anyways. Samsung Buds Live, if I recall, are pretty good, but that's about it.

 

Apple doesn't want you to throw your phone away, they want you to come to an Apple Store and fix it. It's not like they're halting any repair process, they're just delegitimizing 3rd party repair by displaying scare messages when you replace a screen or battery. They do that so next time people will go to an Apple Store instead of an independent repairperson's. It's bad, but Apple has been doing this for years, and the industry is starting to follow. But, if they truly wanted you to throw your phone away, why the hell do they support the damn things for 5-6 years? And give Windows XP style security updates to iOS versions they don't support anymore like iOS 12? There's a reason why most Americans keep their phones for up to 3 years, and there's a reason why Apple supports their phone for 5. But no yes you're right. Apple would rather you throw away a phone than trade it in for them to resell it...

4 hours ago, Vishera said:

Apple is no saint,it has a lot of evil in it with the end goal of satisfying their greed that will never be satisfied.

Thank you for describing Capitalist America. If you don't like it move to China or Russia I guess...

4 hours ago, Vishera said:

Poor sheeps...

And to end it off of course insult people for having a preference. Because wanting a product, even from a company as "evil" as Apple, is just sin I assume, unless it's from a company you like.

 

My stance? Buy the product that makes you happy. No company is your friend. Not AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Apple, Samsung, they all have profits in mind. Don't let fanboyism make your purchase decision. Buy the product that you will enjoy using because at the end of the day it's your wallet. 

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, Vishera said:

When you buy a product it should not have any issues,if it does have an issue the manufacturer has an obligation to fix it.

The problem is that Apple cultists would not be "offended" even if Apple kicked them in the balls and laughed at them.

 

Generally i dislike Apple products,I like the freedom to tinker with stuff and be free from any closed down eco-system and other restrictions.

I also like good quality internal components,Apple is enslaving you by binding you to their products,eco-system etc.

And not to mention that Apple deliberately makes all of their physical products disposable and stifling repair - hoping that you will throw your phone to the garbage and buy a new one rather than replacing the old battery in it or fix any other issue it may have.

 

Apple is no saint,it has a lot of evil in it with the end goal of satisfying their greed that will never be satisfied.

 

Poor sheeps...

Re: there stuff that is reasonable here and there is stuff that is assumptive I think.

 

as is common when an arguer wants to insert BS, a reasonable statement is started with which creates a basis of “truth” for want of a better word,  and then it veers.  I’ve seen this a whole lot lately in a lot of places.

 

Lets start with the reasonable; the first paragraph: (punctuation errors removed because they bug me) 

“When you buy a product it should not have any issues.  If it does have an issue the manufacturer has an obligation to fix it.

The problem is that Apple cultists would not be "offended" even if Apple kicked them in the balls and laughed at them.”

 

I agree with the initial sentiment that a product should not have any issues.  All of them always do no matter who makes them of course, and finding and fixing them should be a priority.

The issue here for me is time.  Raising the issue? Reasonable.  Wanting a product to be defect free? Reasonable.  My issue is time.  

 

 I even agree with the statement about groins and apple fanboys.  The problem though is they aren’t the only sort that exist.  There are also those that are the reverse.  The sort that would complain even even if an iPhone came, to follow the groin analogy, with fellatio. 
 

After the first paragraphs the unsupported grand claims and assumptions start: “Apple is enslaving you” “ Apple deliberately (that’s a key word there) makes all their physical products disposable”, the word “evil” is used, and the big kicker at the end: “poor sheeps” 

 

I could go into why each and of these are manipulated twisted abusive concepts.  It would take far too long though.  The layout alone is enough though.  It shows what I might term “reverse Apple fanboy” behavior.  If the Apple fanboys are fools, how can you possibly be less of one?

 

P.S “sheep” is also plural.  “Sheeps” is not a word

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bombastinator

[Blademaster91]

10 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Budgets and allocations. It does cost alot to train your entire workforce to do something as complicated and time consuming as board-level repair. And for a company with a reputation on the line, that certification does nd to be reverified, so multiply that by every 2-3ish years.

Well I think it would be better to have well trained staff that know what they're doing rather than the store staff that just see a moisture sensor or a scratch on the phone and completely deny any simple repair and instead want to charge what the device is worth to fix.

10 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Isn't that what the iFixit teardown score is about? Serviceability? Apple's components are mostly held in by screws or easily removable adhesive (look at the battery pull tabs), and their boards are all componentized, making a theoretical repair easier than it all being on one board. The problem is that they don't sell them. But I don't think that iFixit's scoring is wrong. Have you tried to take apart a Samsung phone? You might as well be trying to break into a high security penitentiary.

Thats just my opinion on iFixit's score, the serviceability score doesn't mean anything if I can't actually service the phone with a replacement part, and i'll need special tools to take apart an iphone as well. Those pull tabs are also a good idea, but rarely actually work to remove a battery. I'd much rather deal with some glue in a Samsung phone and actually be able to obtain parts for it.

11 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

With this stuff it's usually about principle I guess. "First the screen, then the camera? What next, the lightning port?!" sorta mentality.

Removing the lighting port is probably the next thing Apple would do, they have the magsafe adapter and took out the charger yet no one complained because apple claimed it was for "saving the environment" even though theres plenty of people upgrading that don't own a type-c charger, so apple can pressure people into spending another $40 on a charger which requires extra packaging.

4 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

It is not a bug, it's a deliberate design by Apple, all you have to do is look for the evidence, there are people clearly missing this point with their replies 

There is evidence, Apple's repair system showed the iphone 12 needs calibration for the battery,camera,and display, the previous iphone 11 didn't for the camera. Is there anything significantly different with the iphone 12 camera? I doubt it, it's a mass produced phone camera sensor, not a precise sensor in a $10,000 DSLR camera. And Louis Rossmann makes a good point on this topic, people don't care about the evidence, apple consumers bring feelings into the argument or just don't care and buy another new phone. I doubt people would even care if Apple fully sealed the phone with epoxy and there was no servicing the device at all.

[GoodBytes]

You guys don't understand. Apple is just trying to be environmentally friendly.

If people could change their camera, it will be a camera at the bin. Then they'll change more things, that is more things that gets thrown out. 1 becomes 2 becomes 3... massive pile! This new approach, allows consumer to change only 1 thing... their phone... and Apple has a special network for recycling, which involves putting everything in a shipping container and have it sent to China, giving jobs to people in poverty separating components and hope to make a dime! Their body also absorb a lot of toxic material that would be otherwise be thrown in the environment. This is good!

 

I am glad that Samsung is following suit as well, where the finger print sensor is now locked with the display. This is the path forward.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

19 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

There is evidence

i know it's on the very first page of this thread which i myself posted but reading is hard. 

[Blademaster91]

16 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i know it's the first page of this thread which i myself posted but reading is hard. 

Yeah I noticed your post pointing that out, I was just referring to the evidence already shown.  I'm just not surprised people will ignore the evidence and go "but apple hasn't replied or given a reason yet" Obviously Apple are telling their consumers they care but at the same time pushing people to buy new instead of getting anything fixed.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

It's my property, so it's my decision what modifications I make to it. This argument is inane unless you don't believe when you buy something you own it.

No.  Well mostly no.  The argument is inane only if you never resell and pay no attention to service life and amortized cost over time.  Sometimes a more expensive thing is actually cheaper if it lasts twice as long.