I've wanted this for years.. (SPONSORED)

[BrianTheElectrician]

9 hours ago, Nystemy said:

Depending on the jurisdiction, a GFCI can be required to protect all outlets in the whole house. (ie, it is installed in the main breaker box itself)
While other places just require them on the ground floor, bathrooms, and such. (Typically installed next to the breakers it is connected to, or at times next to the light switches in/outside of the room in question. (Exact requirements on location varies from country to country))

It varies a lot to be fair, and some countries just shrugs about it and have no requirements on the use of GFCIs at all. And some countries call them Residual Current Interrupters instead... (Or where I live, "Jordfelsbrytare" (lit: "ground fault breaker"))

But I would be a bit surprised if @BrianTheElectrician didn't at the very least recommend the use of such for this installation.

_{Though, to be fair, one should also put a ground strap onto the tub itself to ensure that the water actually has a path to earth, it can after all just be floating since the faucet isn't typically submerged in the tub itself, And drain pipes are typically made of plastic and aren't really going to provide much of a ground path either... So if an ungrounded appliance were to fall in, the GFCI would potentially not even notice.}

The receptacle added in the wall for the TV is a GFCI type. They work by comparing the current going out with what comes back in and if there is a discrepancy they trip. Here GFCI protection is required for any receptacle that is within 1m of water, and cannot be installed less than 0.3m from the sink/shower/tub etc. The protection can either by built into the breaker in the panel for the circuit, a GFCI device in a box or built into the receptacle itself. GFCI receptacles here also have line/load connections so they can be installed such that they are supplied with power on the line, and anything downstream on the load terminals are also GFCI protected by that same device.

 

Also, all the wiring behind the TV is tied up and the mount has straps built into it to run the siring through as well. Rust on the TV mount shouldn't be an issue either as the entire mount is painted. Steel is fine as long as it is not exposed. If it wasn't, car's wouldn't last long or would be made out of a different material.

[Alaura]

21 hours ago, Nystemy said:

Depending on the jurisdiction, a GFCI can be required to protect all outlets in the whole house. (ie, it is installed in the main breaker box itself)
While other places just require them on the ground floor, bathrooms, and such. (Typically installed next to the breakers it is connected to, or at times next to the light switches in/outside of the room in question. (Exact requirements on location varies from country to country))

It varies a lot to be fair, and some countries just shrugs about it and have no requirements on the use of GFCIs at all. And some countries call them Residual Current Interrupters instead... (Or where I live, "Jordfelsbrytare" (lit: "ground fault breaker"))

But I would be a bit surprised if @BrianTheElectrician didn't at the very least recommend the use of such for this installation.

_{Though, to be fair, one should also put a ground strap onto the tub itself to ensure that the water actually has a path to earth, it can after all just be floating since the faucet isn't typically submerged in the tub itself, And drain pipes are typically made of plastic and aren't really going to provide much of a ground path either... So if an ungrounded appliance were to fall in, the GFCI would potentially not even notice.}

I fully understand, and i do love the conversation we had around this, i really do love talking about electrical systems and the mechanics and things around and about it. Electricity is really cool but also really dangerous if not handled properly, and i do hope that Brian did recommend such a installation as said, i just hope that it is behind something like a GFCI so it doesn't electrocute him and or severely hurt / kill linus and or anyone else in his family. Why i was really on the fence and said that most people wouldn't sponsor this video because of that, not trying to malicious, but overly safe as i did a lot of electrical work for the past 10 years and i love working with it, despite how dangerous and lethal it can be as always. 

[AdmiralKird]

A GFCI is not guaranteed electrocution prevention. They trip incredibly fast with only a very small difference in potential but... for someone submerged in a body of water there are going to be a lot more accessible bodily entry points than say, the fingers on one hand. Idk what it's like for Linus but practically any time I work on a PC I end up cutting a finger here or there. If you have two cuts on opposite hands things get very bad if you come into contact with electricity as the quickest complete circuit for electrons searching for ground is through one hand and out the other, and your heart happens to be between them.

In the context of this video though another important factor is the drain pipe on that tub. If you have an older home you're almost certainly going to have an iron drain pipe which will be a ground.  Since you're likely not going to be interfering with this pathway when being inside the tub, and something happens you'll probably? be fine? I'm not sure what happens if the surge protector falls into the water, and the tubs pipes are PVC, and what the TV's capacitors will do in this scenario. Will they start dumping their charge immediately when turned off to ground?

And there's a third factor here if you want to talk about GFCI's, and maybe the most important one...whether or not the TV even uses a dedicated ground. Some Mr. Dink "very expensive" OLED TVs do not even have dedicated grounded plugs. You can see Samsung and LG's two prong in this reddit thread. A GFCI isn't going to be able to do anything with that if you have PVC or plastic drains as the GFCI needs to be able to detect something wrong between the hot and neutral. Maybe if the TV impacts the water the GFCI would start getting DC voltage back on the neutral, the GFCI would go "wtf?" and trip, but idk. Let's just remove the TV entirely. If that power cable falls into the water, and the drain isn''t a ground, then you're... you're done. The GFCI can't tell you're not part of an expected load. You'll need to wait for the breaker to trip when it surpasses frying you with 15amps.

Addendum:  A GFCI works by expecting to see the same current returning on the neutral/line as it does sending it out on the hot/load. So if it sends 5amps out it expects to see 5amps coming back. If you have a ground and a problem, then it'll send 5amps and get 4.97 back for a microsecond and trip itself. That 0.03amps went to a ground somewhere. So if you like, stick a fork in the load/hot of an outlet, it won't get those 5amps back on the neutral and trip immediately. If you're in a fiberglass tub and a three prong plug falls in, 5amps comes from the hot and will want to exit with 2.5a on the neutral and 2.5a on the dedicated ground. A GFCI will trip this nearly immediately when 30-50ma just starts to enter the grounded plug. If there's no dedicated ground with a two prong plug then the neutral acts as its own ground, ei, 5amps out and 5amps back on the neutral. And if you're in a fiberglass tub and there's no immediate ground then you're connected to both the hot and neutral lines through the water. You're part of the circuit. You look just like an appliance. The GFCI tripping will depend on 30-50ma escaping the circuit through... fiberglass and plastic.

[BrianTheElectrician]

6 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

A GFCI is not guaranteed electrocution prevention. They trip incredibly fast with only a very small difference in potential but... for someone submerged in a body of water there are going to be a lot more accessible bodily entry points than say, the fingers on one hand. Idk what it's like for Linus but practically any time I work on a PC I end up cutting a finger here or there. If you have two cuts on opposite hands things get very bad if you come into contact with electricity as the quickest complete circuit for electrons searching for ground is through one hand and out the other, and your heart happens to be between them.

In the context of this video though another important factor is the drain pipe on that tub. If you have an older home you're almost certainly going to have an iron drain pipe which will be a ground.  Since you're likely not going to be interfering with this pathway when being inside the tub, and something happens you'll probably? be fine? I'm not sure what happens if the surge protector falls into the water, and the tubs pipes are PVC, and what the TV's capacitors will do in this scenario. Will they start dumping their charge immediately when turned off to ground?

And there's a third factor here if you want to talk about GFCI's, and maybe the most important one...whether or not the TV even uses a dedicated ground. Some Mr. Dink "very expensive" OLED TVs do not even have dedicated grounded plugs. You can see Samsung and LG's two prong in this reddit thread. A GFCI isn't going to be able to do anything with that if you have PVC or plastic drains as the GFCI needs to be able to detect something wrong between the hot and neutral. Maybe if the TV impacts the water the GFCI would start getting DC voltage back on the neutral, the GFCI would go "wtf?" and trip, but idk. Let's just remove the TV entirely. If that power cable falls into the water, and the drain isn''t a ground, then you're... you're done. The GFCI can't tell you're not part of an expected load. You'll need to wait for the breaker to trip when it surpasses frying you with 15amps.

Addendum:  A GFCI works by expecting to see the same current returning on the neutral/line as it does sending it out on the hot/load. So if it sends 5amps out it expects to see 5amps coming back. If you have a ground and a problem, then it'll send 5amps and get 4.97 back for a microsecond and trip itself. That 0.03amps went to a ground somewhere. If there's no dedicated ground then the neutral acts as its own ground, ei, 5amps out and 5amps back even if they're flowing through you.

Gfci receptacles are very sensitive, and even without a good ground only a few milliamps have to go elsewhere and it'll trip. They'll even trip if you jump the neutral and ground together and not even touch the hot.

 

To be clear, mounting a tv above your bathtub is something I wouldn't recommend doing but given the circumstances the gfci is the safest in that situation.

[Nystemy]

On 9/28/2020 at 1:21 AM, BrianTheElectrician said:

The receptacle added in the wall for the TV is a GFCI type. They work by comparing the current going out with what comes back in and if there is a discrepancy they trip. Here GFCI protection is required for any receptacle that is within 1m of water, and cannot be installed less than 0.3m from the sink/shower/tub etc. The protection can either by built into the breaker in the panel for the circuit, a GFCI device in a box or built into the receptacle itself. GFCI receptacles here also have line/load connections so they can be installed such that they are supplied with power on the line, and anything downstream on the load terminals are also GFCI protected by that same device.

 

Also, all the wiring behind the TV is tied up and the mount has straps built into it to run the siring through as well. Rust on the TV mount shouldn't be an issue either as the entire mount is painted. Steel is fine as long as it is not exposed. If it wasn't, car's wouldn't last long or would be made out of a different material.

Good to know that sensible installation practices were used.

Nor would I worry too much about the metal corroding to be fair.
Even exposed iron takes a fair bit of time to show signs of rust. Not like one showers in salt water after all, since that would rapidly increase the rate of corrosion. _{though, bathing salts are a thing... But I still wouldn't really worry.}

[HenrySalayne]

9 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

for someone submerged in a body of water there are going to be a lot more accessible bodily entry points than say, the fingers on one hand. Idk what it's like for Linus but practically any time I work on a PC I end up cutting a finger here or there. If you have two cuts on opposite hands things get very bad if you come into contact with electricity as the quickest complete circuit for electrons searching for ground is through one hand and out the other, and your heart happens to be between them.

This is not true. The current won't just take the "easiest" route. It is way more complicated. Quick example: If you would put 3 resistors in parallel, one with 1R and two with 2R, not all current is flowing through the smallest resistor. It will split up. In this very easy example only 1/2 of the current will flow through the 1R resistor. Even if you would have two cuts in your hands with metal still sticking out of the wound, only a small part of all the current flowing through the water will enter your body.

9 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

And there's a third factor here if you want to talk about GFCI's, and maybe the most important one...whether or not the TV even uses a dedicated ground. Some Mr. Dink "very expensive" OLED TVs do not even have dedicated grounded plugs. You can see Samsung and LG's two prong in this reddit thread. A GFCI isn't going to be able to do anything with that if you have PVC or plastic drains as the GFCI needs to be able to detect something wrong between the hot and neutral. Maybe if the TV impacts the water the GFCI would start getting DC voltage back on the neutral, the GFCI would go "wtf?" and trip, but idk. Let's just remove the TV entirely. If that power cable falls into the water, and the drain isn''t a ground, then you're... you're done. The GFCI can't tell you're not part of an expected load. You'll need to wait for the breaker to trip when it surpasses frying you with 15amps.

If you submerge a plug (standard C7, with 8.6 mm between the two pins) , both wires are really close together. The electric field will be pretty minimal and there shouldn't be a "high" or "large" (and potentially dangerous) electric field around them. And even if the bathtub is not grounded, some current will flow to ground and the GFCI should still trip. It's not like bathtubs are installed electrically isolated.

 

9 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

Addendum:  A GFCI works by expecting to see the same current returning on the neutral/line as it does sending it out on the hot/load. So if it sends 5amps out it expects to see 5amps coming back. If you have a ground and a problem, then it'll send 5amps and get 4.97 back for a microsecond and trip itself. That 0.03amps went to a ground somewhere. So if you like, stick a fork in the load/hot of an outlet, it won't get those 5amps back on the neutral and trip immediately. If you're in a fiberglass tub and a three prong plug falls in, 5amps comes from the hot and will want to exit with 2.5a on the neutral and 2.5a on the dedicated ground. A GFCI will trip this nearly immediately when 30-50ma just starts to enter the grounded plug. If there's no dedicated ground with a two prong plug then the neutral acts as its own ground, ei, 5amps out and 5amps back on the neutral. And if you're in a fiberglass tub and there's no immediate ground then you're connected to both the hot and neutral lines through the water. You're part of the circuit. You look just like an appliance. The GFCI tripping will depend on 30-50ma escaping the circuit through... fiberglass and plastic.

In the "fork" example the person is probably standing on a carpet and yet there is enough current flowing through their body to trip the GFCI. It should be obvious a normal bathtub wouldn't be better electrically isolated.

 

2 hours ago, BrianTheElectrician said:

They'll even trip if you jump the neutral and ground together and not even touch the hot.

Which is only true if the circuit corresponding to the GFCI is loaded, because some current needs to bypass the GFCI for it to trip. GFCIs are pretty basic devices, with a few wires wound around copper coil. The current flowing through each wire will induce a current. The sum of all induced currents must be zero or the magnetic fields need to be canceled out by each other (because the sum of all currents flowing in one direction is equal to the sum of all currents flowing in the other direction). If some current is leaking from the circuit (and the sum of all currents is no longer zero) the current induced into the coil will trip the GFCI (picture shows an European 230V 3 phase RCD rated for 40A which will trip at 30 mA, the small blue wire is for the "test" button and will divert 30 mA through the core to test it's functionallity).

 

GFCIs won't save your life every single time, but the circumstances for it to not trip are really rare. You need to be either incredibly stupid or really - and I mean extraordinarily - unlucky.

Edited September 29, 2020 by HenrySalayne
Clarification and some minor corrections

[AnonymousGuy]

I know this is Canada (and I can't easily find CEC online for some reason...), but NEC in the US says you can't have any outlets within a zone around the bathtub:

Quote

406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.

Typically if you're licensed for these things you have a duty to refuse to do anything contradicting these codes...because you're considered the line of defense against customers doing stupid shit.

 

(But maybe Canada says it's fine if it's GFCI...don't know)

[Required]

If that the romanian, bulgarian,... troop of Guys who are "skilled in everything" would not build anymore Houses some TV Shows could declare bankruptsy impediatelly.

[BrianTheElectrician]

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is not true. The current won't just take the "easiest" route. It is way more complicated. Quick example: If you would put 3 resistors in parallel, one with 1R and two with 2R, not all current is flowing through the smallest resistor. It will split up. In this very easy example only 1/2 of the current will flow through the 1R resistor. Even if you would have two cuts in your hands with metal still sticking out of the wound, only a small part of all the current flowing through the water will enter your body.

If you submerge a plug (standard C7, with 8.6 mm between the two pins) , both wires are really close together. The electric field will be pretty minimal and there shouldn't be a "high" or "large" (and potentially dangerous) electric field around them. And even if the bathtub is not grounded, some current will flow to ground and the GFCI should still trip. It's not like bathtubs are installed electrically isolated.

 

In the "fork" example the person is probably standing on a carpet and yet there is enough current flowing through their body to trip the GFCI. It should be obvious a normal bathtub wouldn't be better electrically isolated.

 

Which is only true if the circuit corresponding to the GFCI is loaded, because some current needs to bypass the GFCI for it to trip. GFCIs are pretty basic devices, with a few wires wound around copper coil. The current flowing through each wire will induce a current. The sum of all induced currents must be zero or the magnetic fields need to be canceled out by each other (because the sum of all currents flowing in one direction is equal to the sum of all currents flowing in the other direction). If some current is leaking from the circuit (and the sum of all currents is no longer zero) the current induced into the coil will trip the GFCI (picture shows an European 230V 3 phase RCD rated for 40A which will trip at 30 mA, the small blue wire is for the "test" button and will divert 30 mA through the core to test it's functionallity).

 

GFCIs won't save your life every single time, but the circumstances for it to not trip are really rare. You need to be either incredibly stupid or really - and I mean extraordinarily - unlucky.

I've had gfci receptacles trip jumping the neutral and ground with nothing downstream from them. There could have definitely been a load on the circuit upstream where current could have diverted to ground through the gfci though.

[HenrySalayne]

9 hours ago, BrianTheElectrician said:

I've had gfci receptacles trip jumping the neutral and ground with nothing downstream from them. There could have definitely been a load on the circuit upstream where current could have diverted to ground through the gfci though.

You are right. I just measured an outlet in my apartment. The potential between PE and N is roughly 300 mV. Loop impedance between PE and N is way below 1 Ohm. I would assume shorting could trip a GFCI.

 

[AdmiralKird]

5 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is not true. The current won't just take the "easiest" route. It is way more complicated. Quick example: If you would put 3 resistors in parallel, one with 1R and two with 2R, not all current is flowing through the smallest resistor. It will split up. In this very easy example only 1/2 of the current will flow through the 1R resistor. Even if you would have two cuts in your hands with metal still sticking out of the wound, only a small part of all the current flowing through the water will enter your body.

If you submerge a plug (standard C7, with 8.6 mm between the two pins) , both wires are really close together. The electric field will be pretty minimal and there shouldn't be a "high" or "large" (and potentially dangerous) electric field around them. And even if the bathtub is not grounded, some current will flow to ground and the GFCI should still trip. It's not like bathtubs are installed electrically isolated.

Obviously a subject in a tub is not the easiest route to ground (and is a dead end for it anyway cuz you're not significantly grounded), rather if there isn't a ground on the tub it has an increased likelihood of entering a subject in a bad pathway during its "search" for a pathway to ground. The fiberglass basin and a plastic drain are going to be highly restive, so it's going to take a while (in nanoseconds) for it to find a pathway to earth and even if it does it'll have to raise the power coming into the tub until the energy lost to ground is ~50miliamps and causes the GFCI to trip.

If you get shocked in a bathtub you're going to get shocked by more power versus what you would have had just standing on the ground and electricity will have access to enter the body in worse ways because you're surrounded by a conductive medium. GFCI's are a wonderful piece of technology and we need more of them in homes, but it's like a safety on a gun. You're still not going to get rid of human user error and they can only do so much. The best safety feature of a firearm isn't the safety, but making sure to never point the barrel at anyone, just as the best safety feature of electricity+bathtub is not putting live electrical wires over the body of water. I'm all for using electronics in a hottub or bathtub, as I have done quite often, but design the setup responsibly. This setup is not, promoting it is not, and its flat out dangerous if not deadly.

I'm flabbergasted that for all the time this channel has spent discussing "cable management" of low voltage DC lines for aesthetic value that its so dismissive and aloof towards placing live AC lines over a bathtub. Which one actually matters?

[HenrySalayne]

17 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

Obviously a subject in a tub is not the easiest route to ground (and is a dead end for it anyway cuz you're not significantly grounded), rather if there isn't a ground on the tub it has an increased likelihood of entering a subject in a bad pathway during its "search" for a pathway to ground. The fiberglass basin and a plastic drain are going to be highly restive, so it's going to take a while (in nanoseconds) for it to find a pathway to earth and even if it does it'll have to raise the power coming into the tub until the energy lost to ground is ~50miliamps and causes the GFCI to trip.

This sounds like a huge misunderstanding about electricity. Lightning in slow-motion shows this behavior because of ionization. Ionized gas is highly conductive and if the local electric field exceeds the dielectric strength of the material, the material will be ionized. This will lead to highly conductive paths and the majority of the energy will travel along these. The peak voltage (and frequency) of 115V AC (163 V peak) is way too low for this to happen.

 

17 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

If you get shocked in a bathtub you're going to get shocked by more power versus what you would have had just standing on the ground and electricity will have access to enter the body in worse ways because you're surrounded by a conductive medium.

Surrounding a body with a conductive material will lower the current flowing through it. It's the principle of the Faraday cage. The reduced resistance of wet skin and the larger surface area are two factors contributing to a higher current flowing through a body. But it cannot be generalized. Three examples:

- someone with dry skin is standing on the ground and touching a wire

- someone with wet skin is standing in a bathtub and touching a wire

- someone is submerged in a bathtub and the wire contacts the water

In the first and second example all current is flowing through the body. It is limited by the GFCI, thus equal. In the third example only a fraction of the current is flowing through the body. Because the current is still limited by the GFCI, the current flowing through the body is acutally lower compared to the first and second example.

18 hours ago, AdmiralKird said:

The best safety feature of a firearm isn't the safety, but making sure to never point the barrel at anyone, just as the best safety feature of electricity+bathtub is not putting live electrical wires over the body of water. I'm all for using electronics in a hottub or bathtub, as I have done quite often, but design the setup responsibly. This setup is not, promoting it is not, and its flat out dangerous if not deadly.

I partly agree. There are some TVs and monitors with external power supplies. The power supply could have stayed in the attic and only the low-voltage line had to be run to the display. But Linus' setup is fixed to the wall, all cables are tied to the fixture and it's really unlikely something happens. The risk of a hairdryer accidentally falling into the tub is much higher. Or any other portable device.