Samsung 980 PRO quietly launched, read speeds up to 7GB/s

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, StDragon said:

Specifically, I was referring to a TrueNAS unit (M series) by iXsystems. They're nice units for what they are, but there's no ASIC hardware acceleration involved regarding compression. If I recall the CPUs are Intel Xeons. Your Netapp is most likely superior kit.

Not really sure, Netapps are just Xeon CPUs too far as I know but we are talking about different filesystems and software so 

[Kisai]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Not really sure, Netapps are just Xeon CPUs too far as I know but we are talking about different filesystems and software so 

When I was prepping to recycle these things (I think it was a DS4246), the back of the device we had had space for 4 cpu modules and only had two installed ( 1 of 2 per shelf.) The modules have the cpu and ram in them but they were clearly ones designed to fit 1U units, though I'm fairly certain they were low performance models.

 

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Kisai said:

When I was prepping to recycle these things (I think it was a DS4246), the back of the device we had had space for 4 cpu modules and only had two installed ( 1 of 2 per shelf.) The modules have the cpu and ram in them but they were clearly ones designed to fit 1U units, though I'm fairly certain they were low performance models.

 

The DS4246 is actually purely a disk shelf, the 4 bays are for 4 SAS I/O modules (IOM6) where the chassis is actually split in half (top/bottom) and the dual I/O modules are for redundancy. Without a controller pair or a directly connected server it won't do anything, it's just a fancier JBOD shelf in reality.

[Kisai]

22 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The DS4246 is actually purely a disk shelf, the 4 bays are for 4 SAS I/O modules (IOM6) where the chassis is actually split in half (top/bottom) and the dual I/O modules are for redundancy. Without a controller pair or a directly connected server it won't do anything, it's just a fancier JBOD shelf in reality.

That would make sense in how it was connected to the server then. (Not something I setup clearly.)

 

I have to wonder if these started being made with SSD's how you'd manage to get 24 SSD's with 7GB/sec bandwidth to the host system, Fiber channel tops out at 6.4GB/s currently. If each drive exceeds the the 64GFC itself, then you may as well just build that into the host server, otherwise you'd be running a pair of cables per drive in the array. Of course then the host needs 24 x4 PCIe4 lanes (96) just for drives, which would mean you need something like a AMD EYPC, or multiple Xeon's.

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, Kisai said:

That would make sense in how it was connected to the server then. (Not something I setup clearly.)

 

I have to wonder if these started being made with SSD's how you'd manage to get 24 SSD's with 7GB/sec bandwidth to the host system, Fiber channel tops out at 6.4GB/s currently. If each drive exceeds the the 64GFC itself, then you may as well just build that into the host server, otherwise you'd be running a pair of cables per drive in the array. Of course then the host needs 24 x4 PCIe4 lanes (96) just for drives, which would mean you need something like a AMD EYPC, or multiple Xeon's.

The SSD shelves are 24x 2.5". The controllers we have (FAS8200) have 4 SAS-3 ports per controller and since SAS is 4 lanes per port that's 12Gb x4 per port so 192Gb connectivity bandwidth per controller with a maximum supported 24 controllers in a single cluster.

 

Basically you are system/controller performance limited before you are bandwidth limited for the shelf connectivity, scale out controllers for performance and scale up the number of shelves for capacity. That ability is a bit more unique to Netapp though, other vendors have to add more components in to get a single namespace and storage pool of equivalence.

 

Very rarely do you even need these maximums of performance though, exceedingly rarely.

 

Also FC is dead, nobody is deploying anything new with that anymore. SAS kills it performance wise and is far far more stable, FC above 8Gb is super flaky.

[LAwLz]

14 hours ago, Kisai said:

Look at the configurations that the machines come with.

 

-HP website-

-HP website-

 

I'm not saying you can't buy 2TB drives. I'm saying they aren't making them because the OEM's aren't using them.

What do you mean? I don't understand what you're trying to say when you write "I'm not saying you can't buy 2TB drives, I am saying they aren't making them"?

 

Who are "they"? What do you mean by "making them"?

Clearly 2TB SSDs in that form factor are being made and you can buy them. It's just that HP and Dell doesn't sell computers with them.

 

 

14 hours ago, Kisai said:

The standard SSD on all high end laptops is 500/512GB, if you select "more than 1TB" on the HP page you're still sent to laptops with 512GB. The Dell configurations won't let you select another hard drive capacity.

That's because the computers that appear when you click "more than 1TB" has multiple drives. For example the ZBook 15 G6 are sold preconfigured with a 512GB SSD and a 1TB HDD, and therefore it counts as "over 1TB" of storage. 

 

That doesn't mean 2TB SSDs doesn't exist though. They clearly do. HP and Dell probably just don't think it's worth making laptops with them because it would be too expensive.

[Kisai]

Just now, LAwLz said:

That's because the computers that appear when you click "more than 1TB" has multiple drives. For example the ZBook 15 G6 are sold preconfigured with a 512GB SSD and a 1TB HDD, and therefore it counts as "over 1TB" of storage. 

That doesn't mean 2TB SSDs doesn't exist though. They clearly do. HP and Dell probably just don't think it's worth making laptops with them because it would be too expensive.

The people who do the ordering, have never ordered a laptop with more than 500GB, despite the amount of software the CAD users install often bringing those drives within 80% of capacity.

[LAwLz]

Just now, Kisai said:

The people who do the ordering, have never ordered a laptop with more than 500GB, despite the amount of software the CAD users install often bringing those drives within 80% of capacity.

What's your point?

[Kisai]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What's your point?

It took several months just to order a 1TB drive from Dell, and what you get can be a Samsung PM981, Toshiba XG6 or a Hynix PC601, of which only the PM981 comes in a 2TB model.  I can only imagine ordering a 2TB drive resulting in a brand-new laptop sitting on a shelf for 9 months.

 

The OEM's literately are not producing builds that come stock with anything more than a 500GB drive in the first place. If you somehow manage to convince someone to one-off order something, it can destroy your productivity while the order goes through approvals and delays from people not understanding why you can't just use the configuration you either already have or already offer. You as a an employee at a company don't get to set purchase policy and do not get to make your own purchase decisions, even if you were to pay out of pocket for the device.

 

[LAwLz]

22 minutes ago, Kisai said:

It took several months just to order a 1TB drive from Dell, and what you get can be a Samsung PM981, Toshiba XG6 or a Hynix PC601, of which only the PM981 comes in a 2TB model.  I can only imagine ordering a 2TB drive resulting in a brand-new laptop sitting on a shelf for 9 months.

 

The OEM's literately are not producing builds that come stock with anything more than a 500GB drive in the first place. If you somehow manage to convince someone to one-off order something, it can destroy your productivity while the order goes through approvals and delays from people not understanding why you can't just use the configuration you either already have or already offer. You as a an employee at a company don't get to set purchase policy and do not get to make your own purchase decisions, even if you were to pay out of pocket for the device.

Again, what is your point?

You said the drives didn't exist because the form factor didn't allow for enough flash chips. This is clearly wrong.

Now you've changed the subject to "Dell and HP doesn't sell laptops with them preinstalled". So what?

Just because HP or Dell doesn't sell a product with one particular component doesn't mean that component doesn't exist or is impossible to make.

 

Like I said, the reason why HP and Dell aren't selling laptops with those drives are probably because it wouldn't make much financial sense. The cost of the storage would be stupidly high and the number of laptops with that size sold would probably be fairly low, making it not profitable for HP and Dell to sell those.

There are other laptop brands that do sell laptops with more than 512GB SSDs though. Eurocom for example allows you to select not one, but TWO Sabrent Rocket (4TB) as NVMe drives in some of their laptops. But if you think bringing up Eurocom is cheating since they are barely laptops, let's look at Lenovo.

 

The ThinkPad P53 can be ordered with up to 2TB SSDs. Apparently the drives Lenovo uses are the Crucial P5 2TB.

 

So again, I really don't understand your point. Just because you might not be able to order a laptop with a 2TB SSD from your workplace doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

 

From my point of view, this conversation has gone like this:

You: They can't make 2TB M.2 drives because you can't physically fit enough memory chips on the 2280 form factor.

Me: Yes you can. Here are drives that have done it.

You: Well those drives don't exist because I can't order a laptop with them.

Me: Here are laptops with them.

You: My employer won't let me order any of them.

 

Not sure where to take this conversation next. Too bad for you that your workplace doesn't buy laptops with more storage? Not much I can do about that. My point all throughout this thread has been "these drives do exist" though, which they do. Whatever problem you have with your work's laptop policy is irrelevant. I don't even get how your job's laptop policy has anything to do with the Samsung 980 Pro.

[Kisai]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

The ThinkPad P53 can be ordered with up to 2TB SSDs. Apparently the drives Lenovo uses are the Crucial P5 2TB.

 

So again, I really don't understand your point. Just because you might not be able to order a laptop with a 2TB SSD from your workplace doesn't mean they don't exist.

That is an $800 upgrade just to get the 1TB over the 500GB model and none of the P53's come with 2TB. To get the 2TB drive over the 256GB in the lowest configuration is a $1400 upgrade. How are you not understanding that these OEM's build all these machines in specific configurations for volume discounts and 2TB is not one of them? If you want that 2TB upgrade you're paying for a BTO option, and a BTO from an OEM doesn't give you much, or any flexibility. If all they have are Class 40 SSD's, then a 2TB drive will come from whoever they bought 2TB drives from, because those same drives go in everything.

 

Eurocom is a Canadian seller of desktop replacement laptops, anyone selling Clevo stuff is likely just rebranding Clevo stuff to begin with. Which doesn't matter, a system that is only available as BTO, is a BTO and you are paying retail price for the parts, not OEM prices like you would from Dell, HP and Lenovo.

 

There was exactly, one system from https://www.boxx.com/ at the office, which likely was a BTO for some user. They sell Workstation laptops as well, and they ALSO do not show 2TB as standard, only 1TB.

 

These OEM's don't seem to make a point of marketing what brand of SSD they are using any more than they market what brand of RAM they use. They only care about the CPU and GPU by brand name. 

[LAwLz]

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

That is an $800 upgrade just to get the 1TB over the 500GB model and none of the P53's come with 2TB.

The P53 do come with a 2TB drive, if you select that option.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

To get the 2TB drive over the 256GB in the lowest configuration is a $1400 upgrade.

Yes, so?

 

 

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

How are you not understanding that these OEM's build all these machines in specific configurations for volume discounts and 2TB is not one of them?

I do understand that. I just don't see how that's relevant to your statement that "M.2 2280 do not exist because you can't fit enough memory chips on them".

 

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

If you want that 2TB upgrade you're paying for a BTO option, and a BTO from an OEM doesn't give you much, or any flexibility. If all they have are Class 40 SSD's, then a 2TB drive will come from whoever they bought 2TB drives from, because those same drives go in everything.

Again, don't see how this is relevant.

 

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Eurocom is a Canadian seller of desktop replacement laptops, anyone selling Clevo stuff is likely just rebranding Clevo stuff to begin with. Which doesn't matter, a system that is only available as BTO, is a BTO and you are paying retail price for the parts, not OEM prices like you would from Dell, HP and Lenovo.

 

There was exactly, one system from https://www.boxx.com/ at the office, which likely was a BTO for some user. They sell Workstation laptops as well, and they ALSO do not show 2TB as standard, only 1TB.

 

These OEM's don't seem to make a point of marketing what brand of SSD they are using any more than they market what brand of RAM they use. They only care about the CPU and GPU by brand name. 

Don't see how this is relevant.

 

 

To me, this conversation seems like you were wrong and instead of admitting that you're wrong, you're not throwing around irrelevant facts to somehow save face. You knowing that Eurocome is a Canadian seller of desktop replacement laptops does not mean that you were right when you said M.2 2280 drives can't be 2TB because of physical limitations.

You do this all the time. You get something wrong and instead of just admitting that you were wrong you start throwing around irrelevant facts that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's kind of annoying and doesn't lead anywhere.

So let's stick on topic and stop debating your workplace's laptop policy. You can make a 2TB TLC drive that fits the M.2 2280 formfactor. It's not a physical limitation. I don't know why Samsung didn't release a 2TB version of the 980 Pro but it's not for the reason you thought.

[Kisai]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

To me, this conversation seems like you were wrong and instead of admitting that you're wrong, you're not throwing around irrelevant facts to somehow save face. 

To me it seems like you're being a pedantic nitpicker who adds nothing to the thread, again. If you had any experience with laptops you'd know that there is ZERO room for heatsinks on SSD's in laptops and many of these ultra-thin ones like the XPS 15 / Precision 5520/5530 only have a thermal tape between the SSD and the metal housing. If the SSD was doublesided, then there is no place for that heat to go. If you have one of those Sabrent drives, or have put an SSD on a PCIe card in a typical desktop, they include thermal tape for BOTH sides of the SSD.

 

To date I have not seen a single M2 2280 SSD have chips on both sides, and the reason for that is to assume that they can't sell them to OEM's then. The same reason you don't see any other physical size but 2280. The retail drives you can buy from Corsair and Sabrent come with massive heatsinks, and so do PCIe slot adapters.

 

https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=831&area=en

 

And yes, you can buy PCIe cards without them, which is assuming you're using a drive that comes with it's own heatsink. The M2 slots on most motherboards being sold today also have heatsink/spreaders on them as well.

[Dabombinable]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

To date I have not seen a single M2 2280 SSD have chips on both sides, and the reason for that is to assume that they can't sell them to OEM's then. The same reason you don't see any other physical size but 2280. The retail drives you can buy from Corsair and Sabrent come with massive heatsinks, and so do PCIe slot adapters.

 

https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=831&area=en

 

And yes, you can buy PCIe cards without them, which is assuming you're using a drive that comes with it's own heatsink. The M2 slots on most motherboards being sold today also have heatsink/spreaders on them as well.

I'll raise you my Adata XPG SX8200 Pro:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/adata-xpg-sx8200-pro-ssd,5955.html

It's generally one of the cheaper NVME SSD as well. I have one BTW. My Crucial P1 though is only 1 sided - QLC helps with that.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

To me it seems like you're being a pedantic nitpicker who adds nothing to the thread, again.

Except disproving you?

Again, you said they couldn't make 2TB M.2 2280 SSDs because of physical space limitations. I posted evidence that it was possible. I'd say that's "adding to the thread" and I certainly don't think that's "nitpicking".

 

The thread is about the 980 Pro, not which SSDs you can buy in laptops from Dell or HP. The point that "OEMs don't sell 2TB SSDs" isn't even true because like I showed you can order workstation laptops from Lenovo with 2TB drives. So I really don't get what your point or problem is. Stop moving the goalpost so much.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

To date I have not seen a single M2 2280 SSD have chips on both sides

Then you haven't been looking hard enough. There are certainly duel sided M.2 2280 SSDs.

But you don't even need double sided drives to fit 2TB on them. For example the 970 EVO 2TB is single sided (and it doesn't have a massive heatsink).

Quote

Now, Samsung is back with another 2TB single-sided M.2 NVMe SSD and this time it's much more affordable. Enter the 970 EVO 2TB. Like the 960 Pro 2TB, Samsung's 970 EVO is a desirable single sided design but thanks to advances in 3-bit flash technology, the cost of ownership isn't nearly as steep.

 

So no, none of the reasons stated in this thread regarding size or single vs double sided M.2 drives are the reasons why Samsung isn't make a 2TB version of the 980 Pro. They could have made a dual sided version if they wanted. They could even have made a single sided version if they wanted, and still have it be 2TB.

The reason why they aren't making a 2TB version is probably because it would be very expensive and they wouldn't sell that many of them, therefore it isn't worth it for them.

[Haro]

11 hours ago, Kisai said:

To me it seems like you're being a pedantic nitpicker who adds nothing to the thread, again. If you had any experience with laptops you'd know that there is ZERO room for heatsinks on SSD's in laptops

That's. Not. @LAwLz. Point. 

I do not know how many times they repeated this, the point is, 2TB m.2 ssd's Ducking exist, clearance and if a certain ssd fits in a laptop or not is a completely different argument. 

[starry]

On 8/30/2020 at 1:09 PM, porina said:

I'm now thinking just what a Samsung Pro drive should be? They've been higher performance than the already good equivalent Evo version, so if that remains the case, is that a problem? I think the move of TCL into higher range SSDs is going to come regardless if anyone likes it or not. As long as there is a good controller and sufficient hybrid or other dedicated cache, does it matter?

The word Pro is basically like gamer marketing at this point, it doesnt mean anything substantial. Its just a premium-priced product that they market for people with serious computer work to get done.

[williamcll]

I'll wait for the reviews.

[Kisai]

6 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

I'll raise you my Adata XPG SX8200 Pro:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/adata-xpg-sx8200-pro-ssd,5955.html

It's generally one of the cheaper NVME SSD as well. I have one BTW. My Crucial P1 though is only 1 sided - QLC helps with that.

Every, Single, Dell, has only come with M2's with single sided boards, what part of this conversation is unclear?

 

6 hours ago, TofuHaroto said:

That's. Not. @LAwLz. Point. 

I do not know how many times they repeated this, the point is, 2TB m.2 ssd's Ducking exist, clearance and if a certain ssd fits in a laptop or not is a completely different argument. 

And my point was that OEMS are not using them,every single time. They always start their derailing of a thread with "I don't understand" when clearly they do and are nitpicking unimportant observations.

 

It's like if I said the sky is blue, LAwLz would come into the thread and say it's "you're wrong, it's pink at sunset/sunrise, and black at night" Which is how every argument on the forum with them goes.

 

I'm sure everyone has had someone pointlessly nitpick some detail in their post, but the kind of aggressive nitpicking that some posters do makes it feel like their post count is a result of being wrong and not wanting to cede the point.

[Haro]

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

And my point was that OEMS are not using them,every single time.

These are two UNRELATED things! 

Lawlz says 2 tb m.2's exist and you're talking about a completely different  things, that's not Lawlz Point, the point is, 2TB M.2's EXIST!

[Kisai]

2 minutes ago, TofuHaroto said:

These are two UNRELATED things! 

Lawlz says 2 tb m.2's exist and you're talking about a completely different  things, that's not Lawlz Point, the point is, 2TB M.2's EXIST!

And if you read the thread you'd see that they were pointlessly trying to argue that 2TB's exist when I was talking about OEM's in the first place. OEM's aren't using the double-sided modules because they don't engineer their laptops for them. The same reason we never see any SSD's other than 2280 sized, those are the only sizes that can be used in OEM laptops.

[LAwLz]

43 minutes ago, Kisai said:

And my point was that OEMS are not using them,every single time.

No it wasn't. That's what you changed your argument to (moved the goal post) once you realized your original statement was wrong.

Then when I showed you that you were wrong about OEMs not using them (by linking to Lenovo selling laptops with it) you moved the goal post again to "okay, but it has to be in a standard SKU and not a customization option".

 

You: You can't make 2TB M.2 2280 drives because of physical space limitations.

Me: They do exist. Here are some.

You: Okay but laptop manufactures don't sell them.

Me: Yes they do. Here are some links.

You: Okay but it's not in their ordinary SKUs and you have to special order it.

 

2TB drives doesn't even need to be dual sided. I have linked you at least one single sided 2TB M.2 2280 drive.

 

Let's go back and look at your post.

Quote

The 1TB model has twice the TLC performance of the 500GB drive. I reasonably suspect the same is true of all manufacturer's using the same scheme. So the reason we likely don't see 2TB drives in M2 form factors is probably because they can't physically fit more chips on the 2280's used for laptops. I've also not seen any engineering laptop come with a 2TB NVMe drive yet either.

1) It's wrong to say that they can't physically fit more chips on the 2280 used for laptops. They can fit more than enough chips to go to 2TB in laptop M.2 2280 drives.

2) There are "engineering laptops" that has 2TB NVMe drives. It's just that HP and Dell doesn't sell them. Lenovo and other brands do however. You're right that you might not have seen them though. I just wanted to point out that they do exist.

 

 

Also, if you were only talking about OEM laptops then why didn't you say that to begin with? Instead you replied to me saying that 2TB drives aren't being made and started arguing against me when I said "they do exist, it's just that HP and Dell don't sell laptops with them".

[Dabombinable]

3 hours ago, TofuHaroto said:

These are two UNRELATED things! 

Lawlz says 2 tb m.2's exist and you're talking about a completely different  things, that's not Lawlz Point, the point is, 2TB M.2's EXIST!

And that double sided 2280 M.2 exist.
@Kisai
You know I was referencing that since I only quoted your denial.