Musk live demos Neuralink, a high bandwidth brain-computer interface

[bejamartins]

 

Summary

Elon Musk is live presenting today Neuralink, a high bandwidth brain-computer interface. The technology promises to treat and cure neurological diseases and set a path to augment humanity with IT and AI. The demo shows results on animal testing (pigs) with success implant and implant removal.

Musk also presented a prototype of a robot surgeon design to preform, deemed too precision demanding for human hands and expects further clinical trials shortly.

You can watch the presentation currently at https://youtu.be/DVvmgjBL74w

 

Quotes 

Quote

At a Friday event, Elon Musk revealed more details about his mysterious neuroscience company Neuralink and its plans to connect computers to human brains.

Quote

Musk opened Friday’s event by emphasizing the wide variety of spinal and neurological conditions — including seizures, paralysis, brain damage, and depression — that Neuralink technology could help treat.

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When implanted into a brain, these threads would form a high-capacity channel for a computer to communicate with the brain, a system supposed to be much more powerful than the existing brain-machine interfaces being researched.

My thoughts

This has huge medical potential and can improve the lives of many, at the same time it is a huge Pandora's box. It may cause a greater impact on the prospect of a singularity. Meanwhile, security concerns are high, the though of a brain getting hacked are terrifying (even with the strongest encryption there are always potential vulnerabilities and we are only ever aware of current cryptography public breaking capabilities).

 

Sources

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/8/28/21404802/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-machine-interface-research

[AnonymousGuy]

 

[bejamartins]

7 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Can change lives, in good and bad ways. The battery implant inside the head and wireless connection sounds like major security and safety flaws.

I think I'll become a hipster using old, non-cranial tech.

[Shreyas1]

One concern:

 

Obviously, this technology will be available only to the rich and generally people who are better off, at least at first. Will this mean that people who are born rich will have a larger advantage (than they do now) over people who are born poor? Like if they can communicate with computers more effectively (which is what benefit I see out of this outside of medical benefits), would this mean that people who were born in rich families would be able to work more efficiently and live a much easier life than those who cannot afford it?

 

Of course, I don't think its worth slowing down this technology when it can potentially improve the lives of millions, just something to consider

[bejamartins]

2 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

One concern:

 

Obviously, this technology will be available only to the rich and generally people who are better off, at least at first. Will this mean that people who are born rich will have a larger advantage (than they do now) over people who are born poor? Like if they can communicate with computers more effectively (which is what benefit I see out of this outside of medical benefits), would this mean that people who were born in rich families would be able to work more efficiently and live a much easier life than those who cannot afford it?

 

Of course, I don't think its worth slowing down this technology when it can potentially improve the lives of millions, just something to consider

Potentially but probably no, unless medical wise. I think it'll be a long time before they can decide anything meaningful in terms of memory access our behavior and things like that. So at first it'll probably only help with more basic stimulus like muscle movement and things like that. I think the time it'll take to get a huge brain signals breakthrough it'll allow the technology to be more widely available.

When they get to AI though, probably their first AI services will be very expensive, and give advantage to the rich, yes.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, bejamartins said:

 

Summary

Elon Musk is live presenting today Neuralink, a high bandwidth brain-computer interface. The technology promises to treat and cure neurological diseases and set a path to augment humanity with IT and AI. The demo shows results on animal testing (pigs) with success implant and implant removal.

Musk also presented a prototype of a robot surgeon design to preform, deemed too precision demanding for human hands and expects further clinical trials shortly.

You can watch the presentation currently at https://youtu.be/DVvmgjBL74w

 

Quotes 

My thoughts

This has huge medical potential and can improve the lives of many, at the same time it is a huge Pandora's box. It may cause a greater impact on the prospect of a singularity. Meanwhile, security concerns are high, the though of a brain getting hacked are terrifying (even with the strongest encryption there are always potential vulnerabilities and we are only ever aware of current cryptography public breaking capabilities).

 

Sources

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/8/28/21404802/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-machine-interface-research

This, is just a bad idea from the get go. Assuming it ever gets to a point where someone with such a BCI can out-perform someone without one, that then creates that nightmare scenario from GATTACA where if you aren't good enough for a BCI, you're an invalid.

[poochyena]

We are at the point of hooking up tiny computers literally directly into a living person's brain.

Thats just insane that it is actually possible right now.

[Bombastinator]

There was a thread on musk and this tech some months ago.  It was widely panned by the people it was theoretically supposed to help, simply on efficacy grounds.  One person was agitating for mandatory forced adoption. That caused me to get into the discussion with descriptions of what nazi theory actually is. 

 

Ignoring social aspects, since that seems to be what is going on this time, there are numerous technical problems with it conceptually iirc.  One is putting wires in a persons brain.  There is a long history of neurological wire implant stimulation.  A lot of it is really bad.  One of the problems is the wires aren’t removable, and they tend to burn out the areas they touch eventually. 

[StDragon]

So you have to break the blood brain barrier? No thanks, way too risky with infection. While I'm sure this might have applications such as curing depression or epilepsy, you darn well better have a serious need to go under the knife for that procedure. I can't imagine any medical professional advocating this for casual implantation. This isn't LASIK, and it's nothing like getting a tattoo.

[Shreyas1]

22 minutes ago, StDragon said:

So you have to break the blood brain barrier? No thanks, way too risky with infection. While I'm sure this might have applications such as curing depression or epilepsy, you darn well better have a serious need to go under the knife for that procedure. I can't imagine any medical professional advocating this for casual implantation. This isn't LASIK, and it's nothing like getting a tattoo.

I mean, I'm sure they're addressing those risks somehow, they better be if they expect the technology to spread.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the blood brain barrier is where the blood vessels have cells that filter out toxins, right? How does surgery affect this?

[StDragon]

9 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

I mean, I'm sure they're addressing those risks somehow, they better be if they expect the technology to spread.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the blood brain barrier is where the blood vessels have cells that filter out toxins, right? How does surgery affect this?

That's my understanding as well. But, you're effectively lancing 1,024 rods through the brain. And while the robot does its best to avoid blood vessels, it's not a guarantee that it wouldn't nick something along the way. It's also why they won't attempt going deeper; for now. And BTW, anytime you expose the brain during surgery, there's a chance for a bacterial infection. Given how bacteria have evolved, there's very few functional antibiotics on the market now. We've lost the arms race against them. Effectively we're now in a post-antibiotic era.

 

Another question is how resilient this device and the brain tissue is against a contusion (head injury). I don't know, but could imagine that a slip-and-fall could cause major damage if the brain smacks into the skull about where this Neuralink has been implanted. TBI events are very serious! This could make it worse.

[Bombastinator]

27 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

I mean, I'm sure they're addressing those risks somehow, they better be if they expect the technology to spread.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the blood brain barrier is where the blood vessels have cells that filter out toxins, right? How does surgery affect this?

That’s a very odd description. Not incorrect exactly, but seems to avoid the issues.   Think of the blood brain barrier as a kind of leathery quite tough bag around your brain That is about keeping your brain free of diseases because it has almost no ability to defend itself and heals slowly and poorly if at all.  It’s so delicate that the body can’t even transfer blood.  The blood brain barrier is an organ that transfers material from the blood to the brain. A sort of really hardcore security gate.  Many drugs won’t pass the blood brain barrier at all. 

[CarlBar]

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

That’s a very odd description. Not incorrect exactly, but seems to avoid the issues.   Think of the blood brain barrier as a kind of leathery quite tough bag around your brain That is about keeping your brain free of diseases because it has almost no ability to defend itself and heals slowly and poorly if at all.  It’s so delicate that the body can’t even transfer blood.  The blood brain barrier is an organ that transfers material from the blood to the brain. A sort of really hardcore security gate.  Many drugs won’t pass the blood brain barrier at all. 

 

Often the biggest issue in drug development vis a vis neural disorders isn't finding somthing that will go after your target, but rather finding somthing that will cross said barrier, a lot of nice looking compounds simply won't work.

 

Of course somtimes finding a useful target is the issue. See Alzheimer's. 

[paddy-stone]

imagine this... a brain implant so good that it can effectively record everything. Aside from the obvious advantages like exams being meaningless if you can recall everything that you;ve seen/heard/smelled etc.... You could also go to a movie for $12 or whatever it is (been a long time for me since I went, lol), and then "rewatch" that movie whenever you want.... that'll stick it to the MPAA    /s

 

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

imagine this... a brain implant so good that it can effectively record everything. Aside from the obvious advantages like exams being meaningless if you can recall everything that you;ve seen/heard/smelled etc.... You could also go to a movie for $12 or whatever it is (been a long time for me since I went, lol), and then "rewatch" that movie whenever you want.... that'll stick it to the MPAA    /s

 

No, you couldn't because the DRM chip in this implant wouldn't allow it.

 

 

[paddy-stone]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

No, you couldn't because the DRM chip in this implant wouldn't allow it.

 

 

Hell if it has a DRM chip, that thing'll run like crap and not be worth having anyway

[Quinnell]

This sounds kinda scary to be honest.

[CTR640]

Why does Elon even want this to happen? This technology is really getting out of proportion. I cannot imagine about the consequences.

[Bombastinator]

To be fair, this is basic research.  Basic Research doesn’t pan out most of the time, and is often like this.  What is unusual is private companies very rarely do basic research.  That sort of thing is normally left to governments and their organs such as universities.  Or has been in the past.  Over the last 20 years private companies have gotten government to pay to do their non basic research for them and government has given up on doing a lot of basic research.  The weird result is it seems to be that companies are having to do their own basic research. 
 

The error here is thinking that this tech is closer to fruition than it is because a private company is doing it.  It’s still basic research.  This is not “engineering level” yet. 

[jagdtigger]

Time to re-watch GITS and Accel World........

[HumansfirstComputersSecond]

Hegelian Dialect. Its a solution looking for a problem.

 

We could actually try to control and prevent an AI apocalypse (elon is doing open AI anyways).

 

Additionally what few people have said about the runaway AI or AI in general (which is the argument for the use of neuralink) is "Why Bother?"

If it makes us more successful but less happy, why do it?

Self defeating technology makes no sense.

 

Medical use only, at best.

 

This is the matrix en writ but worse because its wireless. Once its in, you can't unplug.

Ban it or heavily regulate it.

 

Income disparity is the least of our worries because there are other technologies that can accelerate income that people can use. Anyone who is willing to put in the time can learn.

 

Also evictions are currently banned legislatively so housing isn't the problem as much anymore.... So as long as you have a pc and access to wifi and youtube, you can pick up any skill and that is right now.

We haven't fully explored human potential from a psychological and spiritual standpoint.

So its lazy to just think you can plug in a chip and be good to go.

 

Also, potential for abuse is unthinkable.

 

Elon is not your savior. Cars, Solar panels, renewable energy, and space travel? 1000000x awesome.

This? No.

 

No one is coming to save you. YOU save you by choosing to and cooperating with others.

[Bombastinator]

17 minutes ago, HumansfirstComputersSecond said:

Hegelian Dialect. Its a solution looking for a problem.

 

Medical use only, at best.

 

This is the matrix en writ but worse because its wireless. Once its in, you can't unplug.

Ban it or heavily regulate it.

 

Income disparity is the least of our worries because there are other technologies that can accelerate income that people can use. Anyone who is willing to put in the time can learn.

 

Also evictions are currently banned legislatively so housing isn't the problem as much anymore.... So as long as you have a pc and access to wifi and youtube, you can pick up any skill and that is right now.

We haven't fully explored human potential from a psychological and spiritual standpoint.

So its lazy to just think you can plug in a chip and be good to go.

 

Also, potential for abuse is unthinkable.

 

Elon is not your savior. Cars, Solar panels, renewable energy, and space travel? 1000000x awesome.

This? No.

 

No one is coming to save you. YOU save you by choosing to and cooperating with others.

That went..waaaay too many places at once.  “Accelerate income”?!  Not sure what that even means. 
 

this is not a currently in productive use thing like tesla cars or spaceX or even solar panels. This is something that MAY (or may not) go somewhere some day.  It’s not production or even engineering level. It’s kind of weird for an industrial specialist to be doing this sort of research.  It’s happened before though.  Edison created a device to speak with the dead at one point.  This may turn out to be more useful that that (it actually turned out that tech developed for the Edison device was useful. Just not for speaking to the dead.  It’s used in earthquake detection and has saved thousands of lives) but treating it like it’s the same as his other stuff is unreasonable.  Basic science is almost always useful.  For what is rarely known when the research is started though.  Do I think he will make a working device that does what he claims? No. He may find out something interesting that is useful elsewhere though. Or he may not. He can spend his money how he likes.

[HumansfirstComputersSecond]

12 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

That went..waaaay too many places at once.  “Accelerate income”?!  Not sure what that even means. 
 

this is not a currently in productive use like tesla cars or spaceX or even solar panels. This is something that MAY (or may not) go somewhere some day.  It’s not production or even engineering level. It’s kind of weird for an industrial specialist to be doing this sort of research.  It’s happened before though.  Edison created a device to speak with the dead at one point.  This may turn out to be more useful that that (it actually turned out that tech developed for the Edison device was useful. Just not for speaking to the dead) but treating it like it’s the same as his other stuff is unreasonable.  Basic science is almost always useful.  For what is rarely known when the research is started though.  Do I think he will make a working device that does what he claims? No. He may find out something interesting that is useful elsewhere though. Or he may not. He can spend his money how he likes.

 

Heh its a lot of deep ground to cover in a short post. LoL.

 

I see your point about research and that's very interesting what you mentioned about edison. I concede that I did not know that. Pretty cool, if a bit morbid, idea.

 

You are right there is a change it doesn't go as planned, there are countless possibilities with the brain.

Reminds me of how kurzweil thought he could reduce the brain into "bytes" and publically stated he thinks the human brain carries no more data than microsoft word but that didn't pan out nor turn out to be true either (He is not a Psychologist, just a general genius).

Obviously things are more complex than that (again, ask any PhD Psychologist).

 

Back to Elon, I have a bit more confidence in his ability to succeed.

 

Trouble is he's an athiest, even if a friendly one, and there are problems with that.

 

If you see people as only meat suits you're getting only half the picture (yet again, psychology...).

 

Research is very useful so overall I agree with you. But, just like AI itself, its better to catch problems way early than to wait for them to be mass-adopted and create a mess.

 

Look at Facebook and Social Media as a whole; it connected people but destroyed their privacy and ruined relationships, even entire countries in fact, because the people who built it were just nerds.

 

Irony since Elon is in the business of preventing problems of the future, yet with Neuralink in particular he may be creating a whole new one.

 

Reminds me of Dr Malcolm in Jurassic Park 2 "We won't make the same mistakes, we're making whole new ones".
 

IF the research leads to medical breakthroughs with ethical oversight, then I'm all for it.

If it leads to a runaway situation where people are lining up in a frenzy like the latest iphones to jack into the matrix and find out OOPS THIS IS COOL AT FIRST BUT NOW KINDA SUCKS then not so much.

 

Being intelligent is not the same as being ethical, and having good intentions is not the same as being fully competent and aware of all of the variables.

 

It can be easy to discount the knowledge required to fulfill a personal bias or goal.

[DildorTheDecent]

19 hours ago, poochyena said:

We are at the point of hooking up tiny computers literally directly into a living person's brain.

Thats just insane that it is actually possible right now.

I thought it would have been late 2000s or early 2100s but here we are now.

[HumansfirstComputersSecond]

4 minutes ago, DildorTheDecent said:

I thought it would have been late 2000s or early 2100s but here we are now.

Thats what VFX guru Gaeta said when he worked on the matrix films.