Apple threatens to kill Unreal Engine on iOS, Fornite may never return

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

Dunno they could do the same thing they do on PC right now which is what? 15%?
Maybe I haven't paied enough attention but are they arguing they shouldn't have to pay at all? or that 30% is too high? - Which was the same thing they were arguing against Steam about >_>

Also it be hard to claim they have a monopoly in my scenario, since other storefronts could and probably would popup, but Epic would be there right away, and offering a lower fee, hence why I was saying all those games jumping ship (If they weren't already banned from the appstore for using unreal) - and Epic would probably offer a better deal for Unreal games... Just like they do on PC.

 

As far as I am aware, you can't directly buy microtransactions/DLC outside of a console's storefront. Whenever Ive bought anything I get an email saying "Thank you for your purchase from PSN" or whatever sooo.
According these articles Microsoft and Sony make ~30% off every micro transaction on their storefronts. (And of course they make money on the XBL/PSN subscription required to play those games online)
https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/19/fortnite-helps-xbox-revenue-jumps-39-to-2-29-billion/
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/08/playstation_makes_more_money_from_dlc_microtransactions_than_anything_else

 

 

Even though I would treat console differently to phones (one is luxury for a specific purpose the other is an essential tool), I don;t like that either network would have such a high percentage for an in-app purchase. That's just too high for what is essentially only a transaction fee.

 

I can see why epic get pissed, and I am also starting to see why console games are so damned expensive.  The consumer is definitely getting screw in that deal.  Given that, then how could anyone be in favor of it, let alone try to argue a change/more competition won't benefit consumers.

 

 

[Mihle]

8 hours ago, Quinnell said:

Damn dude.  Apple is taking the gloves off.

I don't think they have had the gloves on the last year's. It's more like they switched out the small hammer with a  bigger one.

[LogicalDrm]

*** Thread cleaned ***

 

Some pointless posts removed.

[AnonymousGuy]

1 hour ago, DeScruff said:

Also it be hard to claim they have a monopoly in my scenario, since other storefronts could and probably would popup, but Epic would be there right away, and offering a lower % fee, hence why I was saying all those games jumping ship -

 

Sounds awful to me.  Oh yeah let me install 15 app stores on my phone because every developer wants to do their own thing.  Annnd we're back to the trash of PC games where every store has their own "exclusive" titles.

[Sauron]

8 hours ago, JZStudios said:

I don't know. Imagine making a game for the PC or consoles and you're forced to give up 30% of your revenue simply because people have to use a stupid storefront to download anything. And considering technically Fortnite is free and Epic put in support for in game purchases, not app store purchases, to go straight to Epic, Apple is basically stealing money. You can't really argue that it's an app store sale when it's an in-game purchase.

Is it good for consumers? Not explicitly. But smaller devs might get some more money.

I didn't say it's fair for Apple to do so, in fact I said the exact opposite - but this REALLY has nothing to do with costumers and Epic is hardly a "small dev". And honestly I wouldn't shed a lot of tears for "small devs" throwing up yet another clash of clans clone riddled with microtransactions getting some of that money stolen by Apple, even though again I don't think Apple should be allowed to do it.

8 hours ago, JZStudios said:

It's a possibility. There's some games on EGS that are slightly cheaper because of the better profit sharing margins.

Are microtransactions in Fortnite cheaper on PC?

[Sauron]

33 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Sounds awful to me.  Oh yeah let me install 15 app stores on my phone because every developer wants to do their own thing.  Annnd we're back to the trash of PC games where every store has their own "exclusive" titles.

It's almost like we should make DRM illegal and force companies to provide the same distribution deal to every storefront that wants it...

[RejZoR]

10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Apple has a lot at stake here. They are fighting for control of their own platform. They are not going to back down. 

They are not fighting for anything here. It's their devices, their OS, their app store. And Epic agreed to all the terms upon signing up. And then violated them knowingly. People may hate on Apple, but it's Epic at fault here, not Apple.

 

It's weird how everyone quickly jumps to defense with Facebook, Twitter and the like where they ban people and everyone keeps saying " It's their platform, they can do whatever they want". And then they turn 180° and say "However, Apple can't do whatever they want on their own platform because X reasons".

 

Apple had this all in place before they were the mobile superforce. Everyone could say fuck that and just used Android and Apple would get forgotten. But it didn't. People and companies still wanted to publish games and apps on their platform and it made them the biggest thing in US. Apparently not so much elsewhere, but still. Apple didn't force anyone this way, people and companies chose this way. Apple just made initial rules and they are sticking with them. It's other rich companies like Epic bitching over them not being able to be richer on someone else's platform. It's funny how this brings them 360° back to their Epic launcher and their bullshit exclusives that removed games from other platforms to be exclusive on their own... The sense of irony is quite strong here.

[Spindel]

I actually have a solution for all of this!

 

Apple should issue 2 tiers of developers tools. 

 

Free tier: Apple takes their 30%

Not free tier: To gain access to developer tools developer pays $10 000 000 and apple takes infrastructure costs (lets say 1% per transaction)

[paeschli]

Mactoddlers always like to point that Android doesn't have good exclusive apps. Well at least I can play Fortnite on Android...

[pas008]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

They are not fighting for anything here. It's their devices, their OS, their app store. And Epic agreed to all the terms upon signing up. And then violated them knowingly. People may hate on Apple, but it's Epic at fault here, not Apple.

 

It's weird how everyone quickly jumps to defense with Facebook, Twitter and the like where they ban people and everyone keeps saying " It's their platform, they can do whatever they want". And then they turn 180° and say "However, Apple can't do whatever they want on their own platform because X reasons".

 

Apple had this all in place before they were the mobile superforce. Everyone could say fuck that and just used Android and Apple would get forgotten. But it didn't. People and companies still wanted to publish games and apps on their platform and it made them the biggest thing in US. Apparently not so much elsewhere, but still. Apple didn't force anyone this way, people and companies chose this way. Apple just made initial rules and they are sticking with them. It's other rich companies like Epic bitching over them not being able to be richer on someone else's platform. It's funny how this brings them 360° back to their Epic launcher and their bullshit exclusives that removed games from other platforms to be exclusive on their own... The sense of irony is quite strong here.

Agreed to the terms of what happens with in the app?

 

They let amazon only pay 15 % for them doing in app purchases

What do they charge uber doordash and everyone else that has transactions with in app?

You think that's 30%

So aren't they breaking same tos of the app store?

Is their app an security risk?

 

[RaspberryJam44]

14 hours ago, rockking1379 said:

Please do tell of these iOS app stores that don’t require a jailbreak to acquire 

There is one I heard about from snazzy labs called the 'Alt store' 

[HarryNyquist]

5 hours ago, RejZoR said:

They are not fighting for anything here. It's their devices, their OS, their app store. And Epic agreed to all the terms upon signing up. And then violated them knowingly. People may hate on Apple, but it's Epic at fault here, not Apple.

 

It's weird how everyone quickly jumps to defense with Facebook, Twitter and the like where they ban people and everyone keeps saying " It's their platform, they can do whatever they want". And then they turn 180° and say "However, Apple can't do whatever they want on their own platform because X reasons".

Not to mention that Epic had a lawsuit and ad campaign up within hours of them doing this change. This was premeditated. They fully intended to get nuked, and now they're hoping that they can dunk on Apple despite the fact that 1) precedent is against them and 2) this was so clearly an arranged conflict that it can do nothing but hurt Epic's case more.

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, pas008 said:

Agreed to the terms of what happens with in the app?

 

They let amazon only pay 15 % for them doing in app purchases

What do they charge uber doordash and everyone else that has transactions with in app?

You think that's 30%

So aren't they breaking same tos of the app store?

Is their app an security risk?

 

Because Amazon doesn't pocket 100% of purchase in Amazon app but can be purchase from a 3rd party inside the Amazon app (I don't know how Apple has this defined down to last specific detail). Also physical items beging soled vs some virtual items is quite different. Virtual items cost next to nothing to create and manipulate. Physical items sold have bunch of other stuff attached and charging 30% of that could mean there is just no point in maintaining the store on iOS as whole. Epic does pocket 100% of everything it's bought in Fortnite.

[pas008]

51 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Because Amazon doesn't pocket 100% of purchase in Amazon app but can be purchase from a 3rd party inside the Amazon app (I don't know how Apple has this defined down to last specific detail). Also physical items beging soled vs some virtual items is quite different. Virtual items cost next to nothing to create and manipulate. Physical items sold have bunch of other stuff attached and charging 30% of that could mean there is just no point in maintaining the store on iOS as whole. Epic does pocket 100% of everything it's bought in Fortnite.

amazon pay 15% of their digital sales on ios linked an article to it

 

and in the end a service is a service digital or not

if they are giving others like doordash,amazon,uber etc breaks but not epic(i'm not a fan of epic but picking and choosing who to give breaks to is unethical imho and possibly illegal)

fyi digital items do not cost next to nothing to make, what did the unreal engine cost, what about the development of fortnite, etc etc

 

this virtual item vs physical talk is nonsense because players do get to physically play with said items through their kb mouse controller and/or screen just like any other digital media like thing which is paid for the same way

 

edit:

i think epic and apple might just be doing things this way for a bargaining chip

[willies leg]

It's amazing how much control these few companies have, like Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon....

[greatpav]

Damn it. 

For how much Apple is taking the gloves off.

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, paeschli said:

Mactoddlers always like to point that Android doesn't have good exclusive apps. Well at least I can play Fortnite on Android...

Nothing has changed then. There are no good exclusives on Android.

 

 

[spartaman64]

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

They are not fighting for anything here. It's their devices, their OS, their app store. And Epic agreed to all the terms upon signing up. And then violated them knowingly. People may hate on Apple, but it's Epic at fault here, not Apple.

 

It's weird how everyone quickly jumps to defense with Facebook, Twitter and the like where they ban people and everyone keeps saying " It's their platform, they can do whatever they want". And then they turn 180° and say "However, Apple can't do whatever they want on their own platform because X reasons".

 

because unlike a website like twitter etc i dont own any part of that website but when i buy a phone i own the phone and i should be able to put whatever app i want on the phone. its not apple's phone its my phone. and sure they can ban whatever app they want from their app store but there should be other ways to get apps. and other people talk about sideloading but its not just that on android theres the amazon app store and theres a samsung app store that you can get so theres other app stores out there where you can get apps not just sideloading.

[HelpfulTechWizard]

7 hours ago, Sauron said:

Are microtransactions in Fortnite cheaper on PC?

Now. They dropped when the mobile prices dropped

[Sauron]

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

They are not fighting for anything here. It's their devices, their OS, their app store. And Epic agreed to all the terms upon signing up. And then violated them knowingly. People may hate on Apple, but it's Epic at fault here, not Apple.

Both are at fault. Epic for trying to get public support for a move dictated exclusively by their own greed, Apple for anticompetitive monopolistic practices.

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's weird how everyone quickly jumps to defense with Facebook, Twitter and the like where they ban people and everyone keeps saying " It's their platform, they can do whatever they want". And then they turn 180° and say "However, Apple can't do whatever they want on their own platform because X reasons".

Except this is not about a specific app being banned for breaching the terms of service but rather about those terms of service affording Apple complete control over things that don't directly depend on their storefront simply because they made the device those programs run on. You're comparing completely separate things here. This would be akin to Microsoft preventing you from making a browser for Windows if you refuse to have it exclusively support Bing in the search bar.

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Apple didn't force anyone this way, people and companies chose this way.

Being one of TWO major mobile OS vendors, even the smaller one, still gives you an enormous power on the market that individual people and smaller companies can't fight by just "choosing otherwise". Even if everyone had "just chosen Android" where do you think we'd be? We'd have just given Google absolute power on everything concerning smartphones. If they chose to behave exactly like Apple or even worse, what would you suggest then? This isn't a problem that can be solved by competition, it can only be mitigated through regulation (or prevented from happening in the first place with much weaker copyright and patent laws).

[RejZoR]

7 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

because unlike a website like twitter etc i dont own any part of that website but when i buy a phone i own the phone and i should be able to put whatever app i want on the phone. its not apple's phone its my phone. and sure they can ban whatever app they want from their app store but there should be other ways to get apps. and other people talk about sideloading but its not just that on android theres the amazon app store and theres a samsung app store that you can get so theres other app stores out there where you can get apps not just sideloading.

No, it's Apple's phone. And Apple's OS. You just happen to own the device which gives you access to their functionality. You don't own their terms of service or the way their software and eco system works.

 

I hate being that guy who ends up looking like Apple fanboy because I'm seemingly defending them, but that's how shit is. I also hated how Android phones mine user data and their software support is absolute pathetic junk garbage. Am I also suppose to go around on these crusades regurgitating that? I have and it's pointless. So I dumped entire Android thing and Google as whole. And am now on Apple for like a year and a half. Experience is essentially the same as on Android. Just better because software updates are always on time as they are announced and from trends from last decade, it's guaranteed 5 years of updates. And Apple is much better when it comes to data mining thing.

 

If people hate Apple so much, then go with Android. If anything will force Apple is sudden loss of users. Nothing else. Not even Epic's endless whining and bitching. Just like I jumped ship from Android to iOS, you can go the other way too. I don't think I will coz I hate Google and shitty Android with such burning hatred, but some might. Or if shit gets so much worse here, I might. But for now I'm not going to.

 

Also everyone is crying how big cut Apple is taking. Apparently Google also takes 30%, yet that info is mysteriously hidden and hardly talked about thing. But muh Apple, it's THIRTY PERCENT!!!!11111

[HelpfulTechWizard]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Because Amazon doesn't pocket 100% of purchase in Amazon app but can be purchase from a 3rd party inside the Amazon app (I don't know how Apple has this defined down to last specific detail). Also physical items beging soled vs some virtual items is quite different. Virtual items cost next to nothing to create and manipulate. Physical items sold have bunch of other stuff attached and charging 30% of that could mean there is just no point in maintaining the store on iOS as whole. Epic does pocket 100% of everything it's bought in Fortnite.

FOR THE LAST TIME, A 30% COMMISION MAKES SENSE. what doesn't make is the IAP 30%. Basically, say you bought a laptop off of Amazon.com, they charge the seller a commision for using Amazon.com to sell something. Now say you bought a game that costs 60$, but Amazon wanted a commision, since you bought that game from them. You end up paying 78$ for the 60$ game. Does that make any sense?

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

Now. They dropped when the mobile prices dropped

No doubt an attempt to gain simpathy - it's arbitrary to begin with. Consider that by lowering prices outside the mobile market Epic is making less money, not the same as before, which would be their argument for their ability to lower the prices. This means they could easily afford to lower those prices, they just want to get a larger slice of the profit when they come out with "sales" across platforms.

[HelpfulTechWizard]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Even if everyone had "just chosen Android" where do you think we'd be

Someone earlier said pointed out the fact, that while nobody is forcing you to buy a iPhone, Apple is forcing iPhone users to use their services, even though there is no reason to do so.

[HelpfulTechWizard]

6 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

. I also hated how Android phones mine user data

Oh, that's sweet, you only think Android does that.