Apple threatens to kill Unreal Engine on iOS, Fornite may never return

[Pickles von Brine]

Quote

 

In 2 weeks, Apple will cut Epic Games off from the iOS platform completely unless Epic removes its direct payment option in Fortnite. Without Epic compliance, or court intervention, Fortnite could be removed from iPhones, iPads, and Macs forever.

Epic's staged coup against Apple could have massive ramifications for the games industry. First Epic added a direct payment option to Fortnite on iOS that completely circumvented Apple's 30% revenue cut. Apple fired back by removing Fortnite from iOS. Epic predicted this, and had an anti-trust lawsuit at the ready, which it submitted to courts.

Now Apple is threatening to completely remove Epic's developer account from iOS if it doesn't remove the direct-pay system. Epic has two weeks to comply, or else its accounts will be closed and its iOS licensed revoked. If this happens, it won't just be Epic that's scrubbed off iOS. The entire Unreal Engine toolset will be removed too, and Epic would be forced to discontinue Unreal support for the platform. Epic is risking the ruination of one of its most lucrative business segments to force change.

 

Source

well, that heated up quickly. I wonder how far Epic is willing to go? If they go as far as forcing apple to remove them off the Apple Store, then ALL unreal engine stuff would have to be removed... Shit. That would be really bad. However, this seems to be a tit for tat. 

If unreal is removed from the Apple Store then does that give Epic more ammo? 

[DrMacintosh]

Apple has a lot at stake here. They are fighting for control of their own platform. They are not going to back down. 

[DrMacintosh]

3 minutes ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

If unreal is removed from the Apple Store then does that give Epic more ammo? 

Absolutely not. Being on the App Store is a privileged, not a right. Apple can take any developer off of the App Store for any reason.  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Absolutely not. Being on the App Store is a privileged, not a right. Apple can take any developer off of the App Store for any reason.  

Right now Apple is being sued for being a monopoly with it's app store being the only way to download apps unlike Android.

 

Anti-trust laws about phones and how they're an everyday sometimes essential service can mean that Apple might lose control of what can be installed on their phones.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Darpyface said:

Right now Apple is being sued for being a monopoly with it's app store being the only way to download apps unlike Android.

 

Anti-trust laws about phones and how they're an everyday sometimes essential service can mean that Apple might lose control of what can be installed on their phones.

Third party app stores without a jailbreak do exist, and you can install web apps just fine. You would have to define an application as being explicitly a program from the App Store. 

[Tristerin]

This is neat.  Fall on your sword for what you believe style - obviously they have a greater plan - or are relying on the FORTNITE hysteria to overcome Apple's process.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Epic is trying to do a PR stunt, but they forgot they are hated by the people they are trying to provoke into action with this. they are acting like the good guy fighting the bad guy, but they forget that they've done plenty of anti consumer stuff... 

[DrMacintosh]

11 minutes ago, Darpyface said:

Anti-trust laws about phones and how they're an everyday sometimes essential service can mean that Apple might lose control of what can be installed on their phones.

Which is precisely what Apple is going to fight to prevent. No self respecting company would voluntarily hand over the control of their self built platform to a committee of politicians who don't know the difference between a smart phone and a toaster. 

[rockking1379]

12 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

Third party app stores without a jailbreak do exist, and you can install web apps just fine. You would have to define an application as being explicitly a program from the App Store. 

Please do tell of these iOS app stores that don’t require a jailbreak to acquire 

[Jet_ski]

Can someone clarify if Epic is paying 30% fee on the in-app purchases etc? I thought the fee drops to 10-15% after the first year.

 

I think while Epic’s access may be cutoff from the App Store, people who have the app may keep it and use it on their device. So Apple is somewhat immune from pissing of their iOS users. Epic can’t really afford to not add new users whereas Apple could afford to not have their Epic fee grow.
 

I’m not defending Apple in this paragraph but just trying contrast them against what has been deemed standard. As far as distribution channels go a 30% markup is standard in the US. If you sell stuff on Amazon they charge a 20% commission; even more if you let Amazon handle shipping and marketing too. The App Store also acts as a discoverability platform and it has made game makers billionaires eg Candy Crush. Any antitrust violations would be limited to stifling rivals, Apple isn’t a game developer. Other platforms like Xbox, Play Station, and Nintendo have been getting away with much stricter partnership rules regarding developers; I don’t see Apple losing this fight legally. 

 

However I do think Apple needs to treat smaller developers better.

[rockking1379]

2 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

Can someone clarify if Epic is paying 30% fee on the in-app purchases etc? I thought the fee drops to 10-15% after the first year.

Only in the case of recurring annual subscription charges

[Quinnell]

Damn dude.  Apple is taking the gloves off.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

42 minutes ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

well, that heated up quickly. I wonder how far Epic is willing to go? If they go as far as forcing apple to remove them off the Apple Store, then ALL unreal engine stuff would have to be removed... Shit. That would be really bad. However, this seems to be a tit for tat. 

If unreal is removed from the Apple Store then does that give Epic more ammo? 

Oh no. As a active injustice 2 player, this makes me MAD.

[Sauron]

33 minutes ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

well, that heated up quickly. I wonder how far Epic is willing to go? If they go as far as forcing apple to remove them off the Apple Store, then ALL unreal engine stuff would have to be removed... Shit. That would be really bad. However, this seems to be a tit for tat. 

They'll just remove the direct pay option and continue with the lawsuit... they just staged a big drama to get people to side with them even though there really isn't anything to gain for the consumers here either way. They made their point, they just wanted an excuse to sue and try to garner some public support to pressure Apple.

6 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

As far as distribution channels go a 30% markup is standard in the US. If you sell stuff on Amazon they charge a 20% commission

Amazon sells physical products that could potentially be sold elsewhere and you give them a cut of the revenue in exchange for your presence on their storefront - that's "fine" (though it isn't really considering Amazon has a de facto monopoly, but I digress). This, on the other hand, is Apple demanding that within your own software any payment must go through their payment system - and you can't legally distribute your software for iOS without going through Apple (whereas you can do that on Android, albeit without the visibility afforded by the play store). These are not purchases made on the App Store, mind you, but rather on the built in storefront in your app. This would be a prime case of an antitrust breach but we'll see if it holds up against the money Apple can bury the case under.

 

Of course Epic is hardly the "good guy" in this sense - they are just the first to be greedy and powerful enough to challenge Apple on this.

[Tieox]

*munches popcorn*

 

 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

here really isn't anything to gain for the consumers here either way.

I mean, as a consumer on PC, a 20% price drop as a result is a big gain.

 

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

If you sell stuff on Amazon they charge a 20% commission

Yes. I agree with commission, but if you bought something else on a item you bought from Amazon, should you pay the commission on that item, even if it wasn't through Amazon?

 

[Sauron]

3 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

I mean, as a consumer on PC, a 20% price drop as a result is a big gain.

But that's not what this is at all. If you think Epic winning this fight would result in a price drop in the microtransactions you're sorely mistaken; it would just mean Epic gets 100% of your money and not just 70% of it. For you, the paying customer, nothing would change.

5 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

Yes. I agree with commission, but if you bought something else on a item you bought from Amazon, should you pay the commission on that item, even if it wasn't through Amazon?

No, I don't think you should - but then, there are a lot of things I don't think corporations should be able to do that are nonetheless tolerated. The fight should be fought in my opinion, it's just that I don't think Epic should be the ones doing it nor that they should be praised for doing their own interest. Also minus points to them for inappropriately mentioning 1984 - I have no doubts Orwell would not take kindly to a megacorporation comparing such a petty struggle over their ability to make yet more money to his book about an authoritarian dystopia.

[CommanderAlex]

13 minutes ago, Kierax said:

*munches popcorn*

 

 

That's how I feel about Fortnite to begin with...let the game fade away. 

[Jet_ski]

9 minutes ago, Sauron said:

They'll just remove the direct pay option and continue with the lawsuit... they just staged a big drama to get people to side with them even though there really isn't anything to gain for the consumers here either way. They made their point, they just wanted an excuse to sue and try to garner some public support to pressure Apple.

Amazon sells physical products that could potentially be sold elsewhere and you give them a cut of the revenue in exchange for your presence on their storefront - that's "fine" (though it isn't really considering Amazon has a de facto monopoly, but I digress). This, on the other hand, is Apple demanding that within your own software any payment must go through their payment system - and you can't legally distribute your software for iOS without going through Apple (whereas you can do that on Android, albeit without the visibility afforded by the play store). These are not purchases made on the App Store, mind you, but rather on the built in storefront in your app. This would be a prime case of an antitrust breach but we'll see if it holds up against the money Apple can bury the case under.

 

Of course Epic is hardly the "good guy" in this sense - they are just the first to be greedy and powerful enough to challenge Apple on this.

 

8 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

Yes. I agree with commission, but if you bought something else on a item you bought from Amazon, should you pay the commission on that item, even if it wasn't through Amazon?

But that commission is applied to software licenses sold on Amazon too. Apple would argue they provide the tools for the app to function. Again, I’m not defending Apple just pointing out that what they are doing isn’t different from others.
 

I agree with @Sauron on the point about inability to install apps outside the App Store.

[pas008]

this is kinda interesting

apple got their money from the app but now they want money within the app itself

do they take a cut of doordash,etc

thats within the app they should have no say

I can add funds to many of my accounts across all platforms in many ways

this starts to question who owns the acct on ios

[ACEHACK]

1 minute ago, CommanderAlex said:

That's how I feel about Fortnite to begin with...let the game fade away. 

can we just forget fortnite for a sec, this is a prime case of antitrust  violation and apple should definitely get a slap on the face for this. lets just see what will happen in court. 

[pas008]

4 minutes ago, pas008 said:

this is kinda interesting

apple got their money from the app but now they want money within the app itself

do they take a cut of doordash,etc

thats within the app they should have no say

I can add funds to many of my accounts across all platforms in many ways

this starts to question who owns the acct used on ios app

lol sry meant to edit

[Tea-Sir]

We can argue if 30% is too much. Honestly I don't know enough about the market, to make any suggestions to what would be fair.

 

This discussion about App Stores also pop up every once in a while, because some developers just whine about not wanting to give up any of their income.

 

But all the server capacity Apples has backing the App Store.

Fast downloades and updates, notifications and so forth. Apple has expenses too, and they are also a company that wants to make money. (Or rather steal them these days, but that is a topic for another thread)

 

I get it, they want to grow their income, by cutting Apple out of the loop. As I see it, that is just not fair business.

Same example can pretty much be applied to any developer. They just don't have the ressources to try what Epic is doing.

 

Comparing to what Google is doing on Android and the Google Play store, I don't know if that is a valid arguement. To me it is the same as saying two companies going into the same business has to have the same business model.

They have chosen somewhat different ways of doing things, that is called competition. It is up to the developers and consumers do decide who they prefer.

And if they don't like the offer on the table, no one is forcing them to buy either phone. That is why it is called a choice.

No one foces anyone to make an App Store app either. Or a Play Store app for that matter.

When you enter the business, you know the rules before hand.

 

That said, maybe 30% is too much given the size Apples App Store has grown to, but asking Apple to give up some of its income, good luck!

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

apple got their money from the app but now they want money within the app itself

A lot of developers switched to in app purchase only for their apps, thereby cutting Apple off, that is why they started charging for in-app purchases too. "Toxic" developers caused this issue. That is a part of the irony.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

13 minutes ago, Sauron said:

ut that's not what this is at all. If you think Epic winning this fight would result in a price drop in the microtransactions you're sorely mistaken; it would just mean Epic gets 100% of your money and not just 70% of it. For you, the paying customer, nothing would change.

They already dropped the microtransactions cost.

[Kisai]

38 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Which is precisely what Apple is going to fight to prevent. No self respecting company would voluntarily hand over the control of their self built platform to a committee of politicians who don't know the difference between a smart phone and a toaster. 

Particularly when allowing "any" app store on the platform would allow all piracy and malware onto the device. Apple controls the ecosystem and actually reviews software... unlike Valve and (Google /s.)

 

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-store-malware-click-fraud/

 

Quote

DESPITE SOME RECENT pronounced lapses, the iPhone remains one of the most secure consumer devices you can buy, thanks in large part to the locked-down ecosystem of the iOS App Store. But things do slip through the cracks—including 18 apps that used evasive maneuvers to sneak past Apple’s defenses.

 

The malicious apps—17 of which were discovered by mobile security company Wandera, all from the same developer, while Apple spotted another using the same technique—have already been taken down. While they were live, they didn’t steal data or gain control of a victim’s device, behavior that other recent iOS fumbles could have enabled. Instead, the apps, which ranged from a calculator to a yoga pose repository, ran invisible ads in the background of the device, generating phony website clicks to inflate ad revenues.

So one developer was sneaking in things. Compare that to...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/03/24/google-confirms-malicious-kids-games-hiding-on-play-store-delete-these-66-apps-now/#2685bc557bca

Quote

Android users are now being warned that 66 apps used this native code trick to beat Google’s Play Store screening system, apps installed more than one million times. And what’s worse, much worse, is that 26 of those apps were targeted at kids—racing games and puzzled, even pretend chef games. The rest were pointless, easy to live without utilities—translates, calculators, ebook readers.

That's just this year.

 

Keep those third party stores off. If you've seen how the work on Android, you wouldn't go near them. It's bad enough when Microsoft, Valve and Epic all install games to different places, but install things into seemingly random locations that you can't then erase, nor can you reinstall without erasing and downloading 90GB again. Valve at least lets you move the Steam Library without reinstalling and redownloading everything. Not so for Microsoft or Epic.

 

What is interesting here is Apple threatening to pull Epic's developer account. That won't mean Epic can't produce iOS game engines. They just won't be able to test them themselves.

 

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Platforms/Mobile/iOS/Provisioning/index.html

 

Nothing stopping someone else working for Epic from doing that.