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Press F for Fortnite - Apple AND GOOGLE remove Fortnite from the App Store - Epic Sues Apple

I did not read the whole thread to see if it has been mentioned but Google has removed it from the play store now as well for the same reason Apple has.

 

I know its the cool thing to do to hate on Apple.  But I agree with Apple on this, Epic agreed to a set of terms when they put the app on the store and they chose to violate the agreement.  I for one am glad that Apple moderates what goes on the app store.  It gets rid of all the scams and malware trash that runs rampant on the play store.  The google play store is a wild west full of trash, malware and scams.  If I am looking for an app for something at least I know if its on the iOS app store its reasonably likely its going to be safe to use and to do what it says its going to do.

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Just now, Kisai said:

Because people are too hyperfocused on details that don't matter.

 

There are plenty of existing, if not identical situations out there (eg the app stores on pretty much everything else) and trying to say "Apple has a dominant monopoly on ___" what exactly? This is no different from how the PS3/PS4/PS5 or Xbox 360/XboxOne/Xbox Series whatever/Nintendo consoles has, except that some models of those games can be physically bought, while others can not (no optical drive.) If Apple is required to somehow allow a third party to sell on their iOS devices, than that means the same for all of these game consoles too, and they will rightfully balk at that.

 

Like the argument can become even more stupid if you take into account certain services. It's almost like businesses would rather make more money for themselves s/

 

But the difference is even the consoles without the optical drives, at least with the XBOX, you can still buy the digital games elsewhere and activate them in the XBOX store with a code

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1 hour ago, Arika S said:

i can't be bothered going back and tagging everyone in this thread.

 

But to those defending Apple's monopoly, i guess that means you would be fine with

 

  • Microsoft to lock everything down and only allow programs to be downloaded from the windows store and be forced to only use Edge
  • Google to lock all of their services to only be accessed via Chrome (not chromium browsers)
  • your ISP choosing which sites you can go to

after all, it's their platform and there are other options, right?

They won't, and can not.

 

Microsoft has this position already on their Xbox platform.

Google already does this (try access Stadia from another browser.)

image.thumb.png.dbee928c8be6d488964c7d9c782a1504.png

And...

image.png.d7b64bfb58b47f6804adfd4edfcd3773.png

 

What happened to my 2FA app? No, this is in fact how Microsoft's services operate now too, you have to open the Microsoft App on your mobile device to login to outlook.

 

The third point is completely irrelevant because that's the existing CABLE TV industry. They've been eroding your access to VOD for years so you will pay them for legacy TV services. You can pay for Netflix but it will cost you more, and you have to buy a TV that has a Netflix app, and while the local TV operators now have a Netflix app, only the DSL one had a Netflix app for a while, and now both do, so clearly they've thrown in the towel there.

 

 

Not every "there must be a competitive choice" has to exist, and in fact creates confusion about who operates what, and who is safe to use or buy from. The fact that Microsoft and Opera decided to use Chromium and Google essentially ripped off Safari, (which in turn was KHTML) to produce Chrome in the first place tells you more about how market dominance of these players than anything. If you're big enough you can just pilfer an open source product, fork it, and give nothing back.

 

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10 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

But the difference is even the consoles without the optical drives, at least with the XBOX, you can still buy the digital games elsewhere and activate them in the XBOX store with a code

You can do that with Apple as well. Or have you never bought a Blueray or DVD?

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9 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

But the difference is even the consoles without the optical drives, at least with the XBOX, you can still buy the digital games elsewhere and activate them in the XBOX store with a code

The XBOX is the only console I can think of that you can activate digital games from other sources.  I don't think I have EVER seen a digital code for a PS4 game or Nintendo game on a 3rd party store.  There are a TON of other devices that only allow you to buy from the included store.  Amazon tablets, Roku, etc.  These devices only let you use the included stores and there aren't codes elsewhere for them.  This is nothing new or unique to Apple.

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1 minute ago, Kawaii_Desu said:

The XBOX is the only console I can think of that you can activate digital games from other sources.  I don't think I have EVER seen a digital code for a PS4 game or Nintendo game on a 3rd party store.  There are a TON of other devices that only allow you to buy from the included store.  Amazon tablets, Roku, etc.  These devices only let you use the included stores and there aren't codes elsewhere for them.  This is nothing new or unique to Apple.

Nintendo lets you do it too, just it's rare to ever be able to do it.

image.thumb.png.875bf099c4367e36c87db073e7ed7ee3.png

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3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You can do that with Apple as well. Or have you never bought a Blueray or DVD?

So, say I wanted to buy the 'I love Apple App', I could go to Amazon, buy it and redeem it on my iPhone?

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8 minutes ago, Kawaii_Desu said:

The XBOX is the only console I can think of that you can activate digital games from other sources.  I don't think I have EVER seen a digital code for a PS4 game or Nintendo game on a 3rd party store.  There are a TON of other devices that only allow you to buy from the included store.  Amazon tablets, Roku, etc.  These devices only let you use the included stores and there aren't codes elsewhere for them.  This is nothing new or unique to Apple.

Amazon tablets can side-load other store/apps apks.

Humble store sells code for Nintendo consoles.

PS4/Xbox can side-load apps (e.g. RetroArch).

The thing that seems unique to Apple is completely blocking side-loading.

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@Kisai
If we just look at games, I completely understand your point of view. If it's all about gaming, choose your platform wisely.

But if we take a look at apps in general, I strongly disagree. And that's the point of many people in this thread. In there lays the difference to gaming consoles and Stadia. If it would have been just Fortnite, who cares. But there is an underlaying problem with taking 30% of everything. And if Epic wants to fight this battle, I support it. And believe me, I dislike Fortnite just like the next guy. But Spotify, Hey (e-mail app) and Floatplane are just a few examples and I would consider them to have a valid point in this matter. A smartphone is an important part of our life and is used daily for hours. Access to it should be held to a higher standard than a gaming console.

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36 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

 

So, say I wanted to buy the 'I love Apple App', I could go to Amazon, buy it and redeem it on my iPhone?

The mechanism exists, that doesn't mean Apple has made it available.

 

image.thumb.png.7a53ac694049d9b2730f40be164f1e2a.png

image.thumb.png.1b1c2856899889996a2e21e705d6c7f3.png

image.thumb.png.d62601e4327882e3190e7fdc99bb00f1.png

 

Download code, nothing about it being specific to movies or music, since clearly they do allow this for those media already. 

 

Before anyone points out the obvious. No you can't buy apps in iTunes on the PC. It's however the same mechanism:

image.thumb.png.25d45d18b9b224322089c8abdb927c2c.png

 

edit: I swear parallel arguments exist in all corners of the internet.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple-and-google-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles/

 

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13 hours ago, mr moose said:

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america/

55% according to these guys So while it can still be technically true, the reality is slightly different.  Suffice to say it is only slightly different Not hugely different.   For those interested, 50% is not a threshold for anything, it doesn't hav an intrinsic meaning.

The key is that they were trying to portray Apple as dominant in the overall smartphone market... and it's not.  In mainland Europe it's not even close. I also wouldn't consider 55% dominance; leading, for sure, but not something that would immediately raise hackles for regulators.

 

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

Which seems weird that you can do that but not for digital goods?  I there a difference between a digital good and a material good under consumer law?

That's the billion dollar question, really. I believe Apple's rationales are that it both helps fund the App Store and always provides a simple option for customers, but it does have the drawback of making it difficult to offer in-app sign-ups without hiking prices.

 

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

I think once you get into that you are moving to edge cases like jailbreaking etc, they do not apply to the general consumer who is the target market and end user in this situation.  If Epic released their app as a corporate or beta app and started taking direct payments apple would shut them down as they have before.  So I think the original statement stands as appropriately accurate.

Not really disagreeing here, just worth pointing out that it's not quite all or nothing.

 

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

??  Abusing a dominant market position is absolutely  a cause for concern and a very valid complaint.  If I want to sell an app, in order to reach half of the US market I have to give apple 30% for it.  If that isn't abuse of a dominant position then I don't what is.

The thing is that it's not dominant in market share in the way US regulators (or indeed, many other regulators) would look for. You can point out that its share is large enough that it limits developers' choices, but it's not a monopolist the way Google is for search (plus Android on a global scale) or Microsoft is on PCs.

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Screw all of them as far as I am concerned. Epic is not doing this for any other reason other than to benefit themselves. Jim Sterling says it better than I ever could.

 

 

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Just now, JediLounger said:

Screw all of them as far as I am concerned. Epic is not doing this for any other reason other than to benefit themselves. Jim Sterling says it better than I ever could.

 

 

I've been thinking as much. No one here is really clean. This is a money-hungry company complaining that it's not making more money from other money-hungry companies.

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I think it's fair for companies like Apple and Google to take a cut of the revenue developers generate while using their platform and / or service, but with Apple's App Store, the fact that there's no alternative does make it a questionable situation.

 

I'd like it if they implemented the option for side-loading apps in a way similar to how it works on the Mac - i.e. make it a setting to "trust unsigned developers" to prevent less technically inclined people from getting themselves into trouble too easily, but give others the option to work with their device however they desire. Of course, the chances of that actually happening are probably not very significant.

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20 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

the fact that there's no alternative does make it a questionable situation.

So why is it not questionable on video game consoles?

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12 minutes ago, HarryNyquist said:

So why is it not questionable on video game consoles?

Because you can buy games from other stores on consoles. Consoles are far less of a walled garden than iOS is. 

Gaming is also a more diverse market with several major players (including PC). 

Then we have the fact that gaming is not as big of a necessity as smartphones are. I mean, some people will probably argue that owning a game console is more important than owning a smartphone but I think adults will agree that it's not really the case. 

And last but not least, people aren't complaining about the console market. If people stated making a big deal out of consoles being walled gardens then regulatory bodies might do something about it.

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1 hour ago, Commodus said:

I've been thinking as much. No one here is really clean. This is a money-hungry company complaining that it's not making more money from other money-hungry companies.

Well to be entirely fair, I don't think epic are the bad guys here. They permanently dropped vbucks prices on all platforms to make this point about Google and Apple (which is a pretty big deal when you consider just how many people actually buy this shit every day) and they are already setting an example with the Epic Games Store, where they only take a 15% cut and if you use the unreal engine and publish your game exclusively on their store, they won't take a single dollar until you make $1,000,000 AFAIK. Out of the 3, epic is the only one who seems to care about smaller developers.

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16 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Well to be entirely fair, I don't think epic are the bad guys here. They permanently dropped vbucks prices on all platforms to make this point about Google and Apple (which is a pretty big deal when you consider just how many people actually buy this shit every day) and they are already setting an example with the Epic Games Store, where they only take a 15% cut and if you use the unreal engine and publish your game exclusively on their store, they won't take a single dollar until you make $1,000,000 AFAIK. Out of the 3, epic is the only one who seems to care about smaller developers.

Plus, even if they don't actually care about the smaller developers and are purely doing this for themselves, it's still going to help the little guys

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Just now, yolosnail said:

Plus, even if they don't actually care about the smaller developers and are purely doing this for themselves, it's still going to help the little guys

If they somehow manage to win this, it's going to be huge for small developers. Plus, from Tim Sweeney's tweets, he genuinely does seem to care about the little guys.

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5 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Well percentage is scummy though. Type of control as well. I'd never support Apple anyway. Aside how Epic does this, they're trying to prove a point how the system is quite lame for devs and consumers. As for Google not too surprising seeing them do what they did, after all especially something regarding games, which they were always anti supportive. 

It's not a big deal to people now Fortnite is known by everyone and they can easily DL it from site anyway. 

The percentage is the same as google, steam, Xbox and PS stores. 

Dirty Windows Peasants :P ?

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2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

The percentage is the same as google, steam, Xbox and PS stores. 

Yes I know. Point is they're call them out on mobile front here and how closed and controllable the stores are not just the cut.

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4 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Yes I know. Point is they're call them out on mobile front here and how closed and controllable the stores are not just the cut.

Can you reword that please?

Dirty Windows Peasants :P ?

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1 hour ago, HarryNyquist said:

So why is it not questionable on video game consoles?

I'm not familiar with how console game releases work and how much of a cut Microsoft or Sony take from developers (and whether or not it differs when the games are sold online versus off the shelf at a retailer), so I can't comment on it. If the situation is similar, I might feel the same way about video game consoles, but smartphones are very different to consoles in many ways, so I think there are lots of things to take into consideration for a comparsion like that.

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Just now, Yeroh said:

I'm not familiar with how console game releases work and how much of a cut Microsoft or Sony take from developers (and whether or not it differs when the games are sold online versus off the shelf at a retailer), so I can't comment on it. If the situation is similar, I might feel the same way about video game consoles, but smartphones are very different to consoles in many ways, so I think there are lots of things to take into consideration for a comparsion like that.

The cut is about the same, on disc the retailer takes a cut too. 
 

How are smartphones different? It’s digital distribution of software. Also consoles are worse, dunno if it’s still the same I haven’t used it in a while but you needed Xbox Gold to use Netflix even though you already paid a subscription to Netflix. 

Dirty Windows Peasants :P ?

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1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

Can you reword that please?

I was writing in middle of something heh. Anyway, they're exposing them from taking a larger cut for just their game being on the store, while not allowing alternative payments. Which how it works currently it's anti consumer and not good for devs.

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