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Press F for Fortnite - Apple AND GOOGLE remove Fortnite from the App Store - Epic Sues Apple

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Now how did I know someone was going to try and say that?

 

The thing is, the examples you are using don't mean what you think they do and you are missing a very integral part of the problem.  Google was fined for android being a monopoly that they used to control the app market.  You cannot argue the existence of iphone makes it not a monopoly.  If a companies control is large enough to force other companies to acquiesce to their desires it is a monopoly and that is what makes it illegal.   It is exactly the same in this case,  the existence of android does not change the existence of the monopoly within the ios market.

I agree, and I think that's a major thing people do not understand about anti-trust and monopoly laws.

Just because there is some competitor does not mean a company is free to do whatever they want. It was the same thing with Microsoft back in the 90's where they got into trouble for using their dominance in the desktop space (despite there being both GNU/Linux and Mac OS) to gain unfair advantages in the browser space (despite there being Netscape to compete with).

 

Basically, if you use dominance in one area (you can't deny that Apple is dominant in the smartphone space) to disadvantage competitors in another area (like making Spotify pay 30% of their revenue to you despite you having a competing service that doesn't have that 30% extra overhead) then you might be breaking the anti-trust and monopoly laws.

 

Before someone says Apple aren't dominant in the smartphone space, here is the definition of dominant:

Very important, powerful or successful.

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3 hours ago, mr moose said:

it's accept the terms of apple and pay up or lose half the market.  Why can't people see how that is a monopoly?   

Because words have meaning?

Do you think stores sell products for free?

You want your product sold at Wal-Mart, you follow Wal-Mart's policies.

 And if Wal-Mart doesn't want to sell your product, you don't get to sue them because you're upset.

 

"but iOS blah blah blah 55%"

So what? The product category is smart phones....not iOS. (and it might not even be that...it mgt be like "mobile computing") Apple's not stopping Fornite, or Floatplane, or anything else from being in business. They're not saying "if you put it out on iOS, you can't put it out elsewhere".  They're not using their market position to do anything other than control their own product.

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Can't do anything here but agree with apple, its their app store on their device in their eco-system. So you have to follow their rules if you want to be on their store. So why don't these big companies then just give apple the finger and pull all their apps off the app store and stay away from it completely until apple changes their policy... i guess it's kinda obvious, 30% less income is better then 100%.

I bet something more useful will happen though when all the big companies leave the app store, to bad it wont happen.

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6 hours ago, Geek95 said:

That's a small detail but has massive implications. Depending on the proof, that's a cut & dry abusive trade practice.

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ITT: People forget that Google also removed it from their store too for violating the same rule.

 

In fact, everyone should know that Apple's rules and Google's rules on what can and can't be in the app store are basically identical. The sole difference is that on Android you're free to sideload. Google even takes the same huge cut.

 

Epic violated the rules of both stores, but y'all are only calling Apple names.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, HarryNyquist said:

In fact, everyone should know that Apple's rules and Google's rules on what can and can't be in the app store are basically identical. The sole difference is that on Android you're free to sideload. Google even takes the same huge cut.

 

Epic violated the rules of both stores, but y'all are only calling Apple names.

This thread was called "Apple is removing Fortnite from the Appstore" before and updated regarding Google later. Which basically explains why the shitstorm is mainly aimed towards Apple. And the Play Store is not the only place on an Android device to get an app.

And the rules are not "basically identical" or there wouldn't be a Floatplane app in the Play Store.

 

I agree Epic deliberatly violated the rules on both stores, but while it's a minor nuisance on an Android device, it's literally game over for Apple users.

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* threads merged *

 

Please avoid creating threads about a subject that already has a thread discussing it.

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17 hours ago, samcool55 said:

I. Don't. Understand. Apple. File. Management. Seriously.

I want my photos in a folder on my computer, somehow I've failed at this multiple times.

 

Makes me feel like an idiot...

You can just plug it in via usb, trust the pc and transfer files through windows as you would a digital camera 

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2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Because words have meaning?

Please note that in law, the word monopoly does not mean "single" or "alone". The legal definition of monopoly and the everyday definition of monopoly are two different things.

 

In everyday speak, a monopoly means "alone" or "single", usually when referring to a company being the only ones doing something and thus have control over that market.

In legal terms however, the word monopoly means "a business entity that has significant market power".

 

 

It's ridiculous to argue that Apple has a monopoly on smartphones, as in "they are the only ones making smartphones". But antitrust laws does not care about that. They only care about "do you have significant market power", and it would be equally ridiculous to try and argue that Apple doesn't have that. Just look at how the market shifts when they do things like remove the headphone jack. The law also cares about, if you have that power, how do you use it. Those are the things that matter here. Do you have power over a market, and how do you use that power.

The whole argument about market share, competitors and "you don't have to use it" is kind of irrelevant because that is only one section in the US antitrust law which isn't even an essential part of antitrust laws.

 

 

I think people who are defending Apple in this thread are way too focused on something that quite literally does not matter in the eyes of the law. People see "monopoly" and don't understand the legal definition of it.

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2 hours ago, Helly said:

Can't do anything here but agree with apple, its their app store on their device in their eco-system. So you have to follow their rules if you want to be on their store. So why don't these big companies then just give apple the finger and pull all their apps off the app store and stay away from it completely until apple changes their policy... i guess it's kinda obvious, 30% less income is better then 100%.

I bet something more useful will happen though when all the big companies leave the app store, to bad it wont happen.

Because on iOS, Apple's store is pretty much your only legitimate option. So it's either Apple's way or the highway. Android may not be as hamstrung as Apple, but Google's massive pushing of their services mean that people are really mostly going to get their stuff from the Play Store, so they'd still want to be there.

 

It's why I think Epic is taking a massive gamble at not only violating the ToS of both stores but also going as far as to file a lawsuit against them. I've mentioned earlier, while I'm on their side with this one in regards to what they were trying to do, I also feel that there is a reasonably good chance that, at least for Apple, they could nullify the entire lawsuit because "you violated our rules, that's all" unless Epic can make an absolutely convincing case.

 

I don't think all that many people here realize but they indeed are taking quite a huge risk here, going after 2 tech-titans. The implications may be quite significant, whether Epic comes out the other side winning or in shambles.

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Tbh i really dont care about apple nor google. In fact im rooting for epic, if they can pull it off and lower the prices for consumers then great.

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3 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

"but iOS blah blah blah 55%"

So what? The product category is smart phones....not iOS. (and it might not even be that...it mgt be like "mobile computing") Apple's not stopping Fornite, or Floatplane, or anything else from being in business. They're not saying "if you put it out on iOS, you can't put it out elsewhere".  They're not using their market position to do anything other than control their own product.

To suggest there isn't a case for monopolistic practises is very naive here. Congress was literally drilling Tim Apple about this two weeks ago any Apple's control over the App Store came up multiple times.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

Because on iOS, Apple's store is pretty much your only legitimate option. So it's either Apple's way or the highway. Android may not be as hamstrung as Apple, but Google's massive pushing of their services mean that people are really mostly going to get their stuff from the Play Store, so they'd still want to be there.

 

It's why I think Epic is taking a massive gamble at not only violating the ToS of both stores but also going as far as to file a lawsuit against them. I've mentioned earlier, while I'm on their side with this one in regards to what they were trying to do, I also feel that there is a reasonably good chance that, at least for Apple, they could nullify the entire lawsuit because "you violated our rules, that's all" unless Epic can make an absolutely convincing case.

 

I don't think all that many people here realize but they indeed are taking quite a huge risk here, going after 2 tech-titans. The implications may be quite significant, whether Epic comes out the other side winning or in shambles.

You can always just not buy an iPhone if you don’t like the policy? If you want a companies products you have to agree to the TOS and I don’t think you can deem a companies own marketplace as a monopoly, what you’re effectively saying is that the All digital PS5 or even any digital only game on Sony or Microsoft’s store is illegal because you have to buy games from them and no one else ergo it is a monopoly. In fact any game console is a monopoly because you have to give Sony or Microsoft a cut to sell a game on their platform be it disc or download.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

You can always just not buy an iPhone if you don’t like the policy? 

I was talking from a developers' perspective... 

 

On iOS, you don't really have much of a choice as you just really have Apple's store. While there is more of a choice on Android, Google's aggressive push of its Play Store means that developers would still prefer to be there even if it means needing to forego a significant cut.

 

It is a giant risk to violate their terms of service and then grilling them in court for it subsequently. I have very mixed opinions on Epic Games as a whole (remember my relentless grilling of them regarding all the exclusivity deals) but as a company whose goal at the end of the day is to make more money, this is a gamble I'm pretty sure they didn't take lightly.

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10 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

I was talking from a developers' perspective... 

 

On iOS, you don't really have much of a choice as you just really have Apple's store. While there is more of a choice on Android, Google's aggressive push of its Play Store means that developers would still prefer to be there even if it means needing to forego a significant cut.

 

It is a giant risk to violate their terms of service and then grilling them in court for it subsequently. I have very mixed opinions on Epic Games as a whole (remember my relentless grilling of them regarding all the exclusivity deals) but as a company whose goal at the end of the day is to make more money, this is a gamble I'm pretty sure they didn't take lightly.

TBH I don’t think a US court in the current climate will back a Chinese backed company against 2 of the biggest American companies going, especially as Apple and Alphabet will more than likely have them legally outgunned. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

TBH I don’t think a US court in the current climate will back a Chinese backed company against 2 of the biggest American companies going, especially as Apple and Alphabet will more than likely have them legally outgunned. 

Hence giant risk. Mentioned it before but I really don't think this can go very far. We'll have to see.

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

You are literally arguing that a developer should halve his potential sales happily because apple have sole control over those devices. 

 

The reason apps don't disappear from the app store is because developers have NO CHOICE,  it's accept the terms of apple and pay up or lose half the market.  Why can't people see how that is a monopoly?   

Here's another way to view the same situation: 

 

Half of the consumer market, by purchasing an iOS device, have essentially said "I will only purchase software via the App Store." This may have been an explicit decision, as I do, or an implicit one as the consumer chooses the Apple ecosystem which is the walled garden model.

 

It's not Apple forcing the developers to use their platform, it's the consumers.

 

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so i discovered this clip 4 days too late (thank LMG for timestamp convenience), and i thought it'd be nice to repost to this thread, just as a side tangent

 

 

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6 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

That's how iPhones have been ever since they were introduced. It's Apple's software after all, they spent their billions developing it, they get to set the rules. Would it be better if you could download apps outside of the app store or if Apple took a smaller cut? Yes, absolutely, but I don't think there's an argument to be made here other than "would be a lot cooler if you did". This is basically like someone suing fortnite because they don't let him sell his own skins in game and take all the money too. 

 

And just to make it clear, I don't like Apple's software and its limitations at all, which is why I don't use their products. But as you can see from how popular apple products are, most people don't mind them.

I see this defense for Apple a lot in this thread, though Apple definitely has a monopoly over their own platform, being their store doesn't exempt them from being a monopoly, and since Apple has about half the phone market in the US, the cut really should be 20% at the most, or Apple should only allow paid apps in the store if they really want that profit cut.

Google is also being sued, even though you can sideload with Android most people aren't going to bother with the extra effort in getting apps outside the Play store and Google pushes their store pretty hard so I doubt most people even know you can sideload apps.

I don't know how fortnite works, but if you're forced to sell skins within the game does make sense because that game is exclusive to EGS, I don't see how that applies to phone apps because a lot of apps are cross platform.

The analogy of only being able to buy from one store on Windows for example would be what Apple is doing, sure as a consumer I can choose to use something else, but devs may not have that option if they want to successfully sell their apps.

 

 

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i can't be bothered going back and tagging everyone in this thread.

 

But to those defending Apple's monopoly, i guess that means you would be fine with

 

  • Microsoft to lock everything down and only allow programs to be downloaded from the windows store and be forced to only use Edge
  • Google to lock all of their services to only be accessed via Chrome (not chromium browsers)
  • your ISP choosing which sites you can go to

after all, it's their platform and there are other options, right?

Judge the product by its own merits, not by the Company that created it.

 

Don't dilute <good thing> by always trying to focus on, and drag conversation back to, <bad thing>.

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1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

hat you’re effectively saying is that the All digital PS5 or even any digital only game on Sony or Microsoft’s store is illegal because you have to buy games from them and no one else ergo it is a monopoly. In fact any game console is a monopoly because you have to give Sony or Microsoft a cut to sell a game on their platform be it disc or download.

I don't now the TOS for developers on consoles, but I've never heard a complaint. There are some F2P games with IAPs, but I don't know if the console's manufacturer gets a cut and how much it is.

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25 minutes ago, Arika S said:

i can't be bothered going back and tagging everyone in this thread.

 

But to those defending Apple's monopoly, i guess that means you would be fine with

 

  • Microsoft to lock everything down and only allow programs to be downloaded from the windows store and be forced to only use Edge
  • Google to lock all of their services to only be accessed via Chrome (not chromium browsers)
  • your ISP choosing which sites you can go to

after all, it's their platform and there are other options, right?

Would I be okay with it? No, I would stop using their services and switch to an alternative and I think pretty much everyone would do the same. Are they within their right to do that? Yes and judging by how popular apple products are, not that many people care about how restrictive apple's products are.

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6 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I don't now the TOS for developers on consoles, but I've never heard a complaint. There are some F2P games with IAPs, but I don't know if the console's manufacturer gets a cut and how much it is.

You have to give a cut to the console manufacturer in the sale. That’s why they want to go to all digital because they get a bigger cut vs selling a disc through a 3rd party. On the PS store the cut is 30%, obviously there’ll be wiggle room for big publishers like EA and Ubisoft.

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Well percentage is scummy though. Type of control as well. I'd never support Apple anyway. Aside how Epic does this, they're trying to prove a point how the system is quite lame for devs and consumers. As for Google not too surprising seeing them do what they did, after all especially something regarding games, which they were always anti supportive. 

It's not a big deal to people now Fortnite is known by everyone and they can easily DL it from site anyway. 

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3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

I think people who are defending Apple in this thread are way too focused on something that quite literally does not matter in the eyes of the law. People see "monopoly" and don't understand the legal definition of it.

Because people are too hyperfocused on details that don't matter.

 

There are plenty of existing, if not identical situations out there (eg the app stores on pretty much everything else) and trying to say "Apple has a dominant monopoly on ___" what exactly? This is no different from how the PS3/PS4/PS5 or Xbox 360/XboxOne/Xbox Series whatever/Nintendo consoles has, except that some models of those games can be physically bought, while others can not (no optical drive.) If Apple is required to somehow allow a third party to sell on their iOS devices, than that means the same for all of these game consoles too, and they will rightfully balk at that.

 

Like the argument can become even more stupid if you take into account certain services. It's almost like businesses would rather make more money for themselves s/

 

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