Press F for Fortnite - Apple AND GOOGLE remove Fortnite from the App Store - Epic Sues Apple

[flashiling]

4 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

That's a very weird paternalistic argument. So, can Apple also decide that in order to use your phone you should limit your red meat ingest, because it's bad for your health? 

????

what are you trying to respond to in that case?

[SpaceGhostC2C]

3 minutes ago, flashiling said:

????

what are you trying to respond to in that case?

Obviously to:

Quote

they don't want every app tp have their own payment processing, and potentially routing their customers to unsecure databases where your credit or debit card details might get saved

which is a limitation on what users can do (i.e., using other service providers, which they do on a daily basis in android devices, online retailers, windows and linux PCs, etc) based on an diffuse concern for user safety ("potentially...", i.e., not blocking actual threats, but shutting the door "in case it's bad").

Basically the argument is "I cannot have competition, for your own sake".

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 even if some companies don't like it. They are free to build their own phones if they don't like it and build their own OS.

Now how did I know someone was going to try and say that?

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now I know what a few people are going to say,  "But apple doesn't stop other companies from, making phones".  That is true they don't. They do however control half the market and by not allowing people to make compatible devices or allowing  cross platform sale of apps (i.e I buy my app from adobe and they give me either the ios or android version or the mac version etc), they prevent anyone from competing, no one can get a foothold in the industry.   The problem here is adobe aren't allowed to do that, because the apple store will not let them.  Ergo apple retain the control to prevent software companies from allowing their customers to buy once and have it on any platform. 

 

When the barrier to entry becomes controlled by one or two companies it is by all measures a monopoly.

 

So before someone claims it isn't a monopoly remind me again how many (proper) options we have for smart phones? how many companies can sell their software once and allow the customer to download the version for their system?  how many options do we have to choose where we get our software from?

 

 

 

The thing is, the examples you are using don't mean what you think they do and you are missing a very integral part of the problem.  Google was fined for android being a monopoly that they used to control the app market.  You cannot argue the existence of iphone makes it not a monopoly.  If a companies control is large enough to force other companies to acquiesce to their desires it is a monopoly and that is what makes it illegal.   It is exactly the same in this case,  the existence of android does not change the existence of the monopoly within the ios market.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flashiling]

1 minute ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Obviously to:

which is a limitation on what users can do (i.e., using other service providers, which they do on a daily basis in android devices, online retailers, windows and linux PCs, etc) based on an diffuse concern for user safety ("potentially...", i.e., not blocking actual threats, but shutting the door "in case it's bad").

Basically the argument is "I cannot have competition, for your own sake".

that's because if someone gets their credit card info stolen because they used an unsafe payment method apple would recive backlash because the app was on the appstore on an iphone/ipad/iwhatever.

this is also why i have to use google pay when buying stuff through the playstore, it makes sense.

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, flashiling said:

????

what are you trying to respond to in that case?

He's responding to the concept that consumers need apple to protect them from financial mistakes.  A rather abhorrent suggestion that the one thing a company can be guaranteed to do (screw us over) is the reason we should let them screw us over (or in his terms protect us from ourselves).

 

 

[RedRound2]

19 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 

That's a very weird paternalistic argument. So, can Apple also decide that in order to use your phone you should limit your red meat ingest, because it's bad for your health? 
Whether a payment processor is trustworthy or not sounds like a user-side decision to me. I mean, who even decided Apple is a trustworthy app curator and payment processor to being with, much less an adequate (not to mention impartial) judge of others' trustworthiness?

"Apple prefers" is extremely telling in this context - it should be "I prefer to..." since in the end it's your data and your money, not theirs.

 

You seem to have a very poor understanding about the people and world we live in.

 

People are dumb. Nobody is good at everything. We tech enthusiasts know better in this regard, but breaking news vast majrity of the people don't actually know about cyber security concerns. The fact that phishing scams are still a thing is a testament to the fact. But if people want red meat. or another platform in this context, nobody is stopping them from doing so. You can't join a vegan group and then demand for meat ("because its my choice!!" - why did you join the began group in the first place)

 

Who is forcing you to use Apple products and services? Nobody. When people purchase Apple, they're making the choice there. Vast majrity of the people just likes to things to be taken care for them, instead of manually investigating things themselves and making decisions. If you want to make your own judgments, sure go ahead, do it, nobody is stopping you. But when people opt for services - it is because they want somone to take care of it.

 

How is Apple trustworthy? Because they have a damn good track record. They're not google or facebook. There are benefits to owning their product that's unmached in competition. That's why they're popular and that s why people buy it. I would always be against a third party app store being allowed on the App store becasue as Apple keeps pointing out, it will compromise the quality of their services and eco system.

 

An inherent issue with this much control and nitty grittiness is the fact that they will appear to be monopolostic, only trusting themselves, similar to how I would trust myself over any other person in the world. And I agree, that Apple has become too big now and they need to start being a little more impartial. They already have with services with Netflix. But for smaller developers, they need to start not taking as much as cut

Quote

Not to mention, you start saying this is why they take 30%, when in fact it's not - you are just providing arguments, which I contest, for why they ban alternatives, which is not a service in itself. Then they solve the problem they created by offering you the single alternative of using their service, at whatever fee they may decide. I would make a joke about Apple selling "protection services", but you beat me to it, as that's the core of your big-brother argument 

Your premptive bias here in this topic is clearly visible by the lengths you go to twist a simple logic. How is App Store not a service? As I mentioned they take care of a lot of things for developers for payment processing. And payment processing and convincing payment gateways is not an easy task. Linus mentioned it when they started floatplane. Apple takes care of all this, any currecy adjustments, any and all regional issues, etc. All this does cost them something, but not 30%. So it's reasonable if they ask for 5-10%. Any developers arguing for more just want to participate in a free market when their operation isn't in one (only problem is people opt for this choice, because it gives them peace of mind - revolving back to the point I made in the previous para)

[Spindel]

5 hours ago, harryk said:

On the topic of the App Store, I use it on my Macs and will purposefully seek out and purchase software on the App Store (rather than elsewhere) because of the convenience and security the platform offers. I don't mind a developer upping the price on the App Store to cover Apple's cut if they desire to. In all the App Store is so much better than the wild west that was software purchasing 10-15 years ago.

With this I agree 100% since it’s the same for me on my Mac.

 

On topic:

This is a childish move from Epic, they know the rules and they on purpose break them. I can’t see this lawsuit going in Epics favour for this reason, they would have had a better chance just filing an antitrust lawsuit without this spectacle. And for people that missed this it’s even more blatant since they try to pull the same stunt on google, this makes me kind of hope that Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft pulls Fortnite from their consoles also.

 

But in general I’m of the opinion that all the complaining about Apples appstore is stupid. If you as a developer do not like Apples rules take your buissiness elsewhere. If it is such a big problem enough apps would disappear and that might move Apples hand. 

I as a consumer have a choice if I don’t like Apples policies, I just don’t have to buy their products. But as it is currently, I do not have a problem with any of this, and I personally will continue to buy their products. To me most of these complaints against their policies I just see as entiteled whining.

 

As a side note the entire trend that has moved towards in app purchases and subscriptions is awful. In my opinion apple (and google) should start taking bigger cuts on IAP so we might get a move back towards one time purchases.

[flashiling]

2 minutes ago, Spindel said:

This is a childish move from Epic, they know the rules and they on purpose break them

i feel like people are just forgetting that important part, of them you know. BREAKING THE RULES, even if they're bullshit rules.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Spindel said:

 

But in general I’m of the opinion that all the complaining about Apples appstore is stupid. If you as a developer do not like Apples rules take your buissiness elsewhere. If it is such a big problem enough apps would disappear and that might move Apples hand. 

 

 

You are literally arguing that a developer should halve his potential sales happily because apple have sole control over those devices. 

 

The reason apps don't disappear from the app store is because developers have NO CHOICE,  it's accept the terms of apple and pay up or lose half the market.  Why can't people see how that is a monopoly?   

[flashiling]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

You are literally arguing that a developer should halve his potential sales happily because apple have sole control over those devices. 

 

The reason apps don't disappear from the app store is because developers have NO CHOICE,  it's accept the terms of apple and pay up or lose half the market.  Why can't people see how that is a monopoly?   

they could just not put it up on the app store, making it a google only app.

yes that would decrease revenue.

but it's still an option, and while i agree with you that it's a completely shithole move to take a 30% cut, them trying their own workaround still broke the rules they said they'd follow when launching the app

[SpaceGhostC2C]

Just now, flashiling said:

that's because if someone gets their credit card info stolen because they used an unsafe payment method apple would recive backlash because the app was on the appstore on an iphone/ipad/iwhatever.

People misplacing the blame for their problems is hardly a solid argument for monopolistic practices.

Just now, flashiling said:

this is also why i have to use google pay when buying stuff through the playstore,

Not the play store, the app that you got from the play store, and that's why no, it's not something they should be allowed to do

 

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now how did I know someone was going to try and say that?

What, what do you mean "the only seller in town" is a monopoly? If you don't like it you could build your own town, you know? With booze and hookers competition and all.

 

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

 

You seem to have a very poor understanding about the people and world we live in.

 

People are dumb.

Oh, on the contrary, I'm very aware. I have threads like this to remind me  

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

 

 

Nobody is good at everything. We tech enthusiasts know better in this regard, but breaking news vast majrity of the people don't actually know about cyber security concerns.

They still use amazon, ebay, play store, newegg, paypal, etc on a daily basis. Something that apparently will set them on fire if it's done on an iphone - unless apple gets its caut.

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

 

Who is forcing you to use Apple products and services? Nobody. When people purchase Apple, they're making the choice there.

That's not accurate, though: you are free to use another phone, but you are not to use a different service provider once you get it - it's a different market. This is not about monopoly in the phone market.

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

Vast majrity of the people just likes to things to be taken care for them, instead of manually investigating things themselves and making decisions. If you want to make your own judgments, sure go ahead, do it, nobody is stopping you.

If you are an Apple user, Apple is. Google tries that too, not to the same extent, but they wish.

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

How is Apple trustworthy? Because they have a damn good track record.

You don't see the problem with self-appointing yourself as trustworthy to everyone else? Really?

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

 They're not google or facebook. 

 

Sorry I had to stop there 

Glad they sued Google too btw.

[flashiling]

3 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

People misplacing the blame for their problems is hardly a solid argument for monopolistic practices.

 

apple are still responsible for what happens with payments on apps in their appstore.

same reason that if a kid dies during school hours, the principal and teatcher are partly to blame since they're the ones who need to look over the kids

5 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Not the play store, the app that you got from the play store, and that's why no, it's not something they should be allowed to do

yes, if i buy an app from the play store i buy it through my google account and through google's payment methods.

 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, flashiling said:

they could just not put it up on the app store, making it a google only app.

yes that would decrease revenue.

In the markets where people buy apps and the economy has expendable cash ios makes up half the market like the US that bounces between 45% and 55% market share.  This means developers don;t lose some, they essentially lose half their revenue.  That's enough to send some broke.

 

1 minute ago, flashiling said:

but it's still an option, and while i agree with you that it's a completely shithole move to take a 30% cut, them trying their own workaround still broke the rules they said they'd follow when launching the app

To, be honest, I don't care about epic, for me the whole debate is about what is reasonable and what society will accept from large corporations.  There is clearly a problem with the system (with many actually, the move to the digital world was too fast for us to appropriately deal with), And make no mistake, it's not just apple, I have this problem with google too.  The fact we don't have another phone option is clear evidence a monopoly exists that is holding out other players, the fact I can't buy software where ever I like for what ever phone I want to own is not market freedom, its consumer control.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 

What, what do you mean "the only seller in town" is a monopoly? If you don't like it you could build your own town, you know? With booze and hookers competition and all.

 

ROTFL. 

 

[flashiling]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

for me the whole debate is about what is reasonable and what society will accept from large corporations

sadly i belive that's just the capitalistic mindset of many people in the world (especially MURICA) where the rich have all the power they could want

[D13H4RD]

While I am going to side with Epic on this one (hell froze over, I know), I can really only wish them good luck with their lawsuit. 

 

It's really unlikely that a company like Apple would change their minds so easily. 

[flashiling]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

ROTFL.

THAT'S THE CHINEESE HACKER

do you have any contact with him?

maybe his cousin LMFAO

[maartendc]

11 hours ago, samcool55 said:

I. Don't. Understand. Apple. File. Management. Seriously.

I want my photos in a folder on my computer, somehow I've failed at this multiple times.

 

Makes me feel like an idiot...

It's not you. It's them. When I owned an iphone, I had the same problem.

 

Somehow, it is impossible to drag and drop your photos from your phone to your PC. They want to force you to use iCloud or iPhoto app or something. And once something is imported into iPhoto, it is unclear to me where the files actually live. On the hard drive? in the cloud? Unclear.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, flashiling said:

THAT'S THE CHINEESE HACKER

do you have any contact with him?

maybe his cousin LMFAO

The closest contact I have had with any Chinese hacker is when I got an email saying an attempt to login to one of my accounts originated in China.

Suffice to say he wasn't a good one because nothing was compromised,  my chat history between the POTUS and the CEO's of Intel, HSBC and TMSC are still secure.

 

 

 

[PCGuy_5960]

8 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Isn't that the whole point though? Epic can sell the game outside the Play Store, not so with Apple, you're forced to use the iOS app store

That's how iPhones have been ever since they were introduced. It's Apple's software after all, they spent their billions developing it, they get to set the rules. Would it be better if you could download apps outside of the app store or if Apple took a smaller cut? Yes, absolutely, but I don't think there's an argument to be made here other than "would be a lot cooler if you did". This is basically like someone suing fortnite because they don't let him sell his own skins in game and take all the money too. 

 

And just to make it clear, I don't like Apple's software and its limitations at all, which is why I don't use their products. But as you can see from how popular apple products are, most people don't mind them.

[RedRound2]

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Oh, on the contrary, I'm very aware. I have threads like this to remind me  

Yes, this forum reminds me how some are just die hard Apple haters beyond logic

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

They still use amazon, ebay, play store, newegg, paypal, etc on a daily basis. Something that apparently will set them on fire if it's done on an iphone - unless apple gets its caut.

And you can use all those services on an iPhone, breaking news!

And you completely avoided replying to what I put forth here. People like to do what they want to do in a safe space, and nobody has an issues giving Apple their credit card info

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

That's not accurate, though: you are free to use another phone, but you are not to use a different service provider once you get it - it's a different market. This is not about monopoly in the phone market.

What different service provider? When you buy an iPhone, you are using a Apple device. This dumb logic is like saying the user should be able to choose every aspect of everything, like running android on iPhone with microsoft services. That's dumb and unrealestic. The reason why Apple has an amazing and unmatched ecosystem is becauase they do everything themselves. I'm sorry to break this to you, but that's the appeal and that's what many people clearly want, as they are clearly popular.

 

The conversation here is simple. Apple takes a bit too much cut from developers' revenue whenever the user do purchase some thrid party services through the app store. Apple needs to relax that a bit. Epic Games have historically been quite unhinged and do weird things like the way they just did this - and goes about suggesting something to serve their own agenda

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

If you are an Apple user, Apple is. Google tries that too, not to the same extent, but they wish.

And dont get an Apple product if you dont like Apple. If you dont trust Apple, dont trust their products also. You can't have it both ways 

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

You don't see the problem with self-appointing yourself as trustworthy to everyone else? Really?

You can choose to follow me or don't. I'm not a dicator. So that makes it perfectly okay

30 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Sorry I had to stop there 

Glad they sued Google too btw.

And convinently avoid every point I actually brought up. Let's just pretend that I never replied to you before, right 

[Prodigy_Smit]

As the title says what are you opinions on apple removing Fortnite from the App Store because they went round the 30% fee. I am 100% with Apple. I just think its going to be a repeat of the Spotify thing.

[Egor the builder.]

Well first of all it’s only 15% after the first year, second of all for some company’s the 15% is managers while for others it’s not, I say this as an Apple developer, I also agree with Apple, also there some great YouTube videos on this topic.

[gloop]

I’m 100% with Epic. 

[Jumballi]

As an apple user, the 30% cut is worth it because it provides me a better overall experience.

 

As an apple developer, the 30% is too much as that’s potential revenue that I could do a lot with.