The Problem With Linus Joking at others expense

[DaniIsAGoddess]

Following Linus' acknowledgement of a viewers distress over a dyslexia comment aimed at luke and after reading the live chat I thought it prudent to talk about this. 
 

Let me preface this by saying, I understand the intent was good and I'm not here to criticise Linus would say that'd be friendly fire.

 

When you make a joke based on something like dyslexia, you run into issues of individuals insecurities and normalising bullying. 
 

In this case it was dyslexia but with any learning difficulty or disability there is a huge social stigma attached to it. When you see someone laughing about someones characteristic it is easy for a witness, in this case a viewer, to feel like that action was motivated because of someones characteristic. 
 

It's easy to just dismiss it as a joke but if someone made a similar comment based on skin colour in a public forum such as a live stream the speaker would be branded as a racist regardless of the prexisting relationship between the individuals or the intent behind the comment.

 

This is why I say it normalises bullying, so many people get bullied or lose out on jobs because of disabilities and learning difficulties. Take a second about the stereotypes associated with the word autism, people are risking their childrens lives by not vaccinating over fears of giving their child autism as though it is something to be ashamed of. This stigma exists for dyslexia too. So many kids are told they are slow or stupid, they are bullied throughout their education either institutionally and by the faculty or by other students. 

 

Linus has had a huge positive impact on my life, but I have to ask myself if his content can change someone for the better could it change someone for the worse. Unfortunately, the answer is yes. 
 

I honestly don't believe that Linus has a negative view of anybody based on disability or learning difficulties. I think he is just uninformed, which is okay as we cannot expect anybody to know anything, and if someone like linus can be uninformed on this issue I suspect others might be as well. 
 

I hope this provides useful insight and I am happy to talk more about this if people have questions.

 

Have a great day

 

Addition:

This was a response to another user but I thought it prudent to include in the original post as I talk about the impact that change may have as well as discussing the issue of understanding the relationship between Luke and Linus and the burden on the viewer.

"Luke hasn't been apart of LMG for some time it's reasonable for someone who has been watching LTT for a while to be new to the wan and not know the preexisting relationship their. LMG 100% wants to and is growing, as a part of that they are going to reach new people everyday. To not consider that in their content is A) bad business B) just inconsiderate, every single viewer of WAN had their first WAN. We shouldn't be punishing somebody for not being a long time viewer. I get where you are coming from, and I do not think linus was wrong to joke with luke in the way that he did. I was just trying to highlight the negative side which appeared to be overlooked. Linus is a very funny and entertaining person to watch and I think him no longer making deprecating jokes about Luke's dyslexia would ruin or change that. I therefore don't see much downside but I do see a huge benefit which is why I think this is a reasonable request."

 

The "Best Answer" is a TL;DR of my position written by another user which I am very grateful for. It's difficult to get a post to be the perfect length. Trying to balance readability and information is difficult especially over a complex issue where ambiguity can lead to friendly fire and long arguments where both parties agree. Again I will say thank you for reading what I had to say, understanding it and sharing the themes in a compact way.

 

[Joseph K]

Damn. That's crazy.

[DankDipstick]

I am reminded of the ancient adage "sticks and stones might break my bones, but words will never hurt me".

[Mooshi]

It's all perspective. I used to be self conscious about a lot of stuff and now care less about it. 

 

Bullies only have power because they're given it. Given them a gun without ammo and they just end up looking stupid. Don't be offended about jokes.

 

No, Linus neither makes someone better or worst. That change comes from within. We as a society need to get a grip on what's in our control instead of blaming others.

[Ad-Man-Gamer]

I tend to find most people that get offended over jokes on other's behalf don't actually care about you as a person, as they just see the people with X as heterogeneous groups.

It just seams like they are out for the endorphin high their world view grants them when standing up for people with X they think of as weaker in one way or another. When someone with X Informs them that "offence on their behalf is not wanted, thanks." they get angry, lash out, and treat you like you are an uneducated peasant.

It is the bigotry of low expectations, and it is even more vile than straight up ignorance. It gets candy coated as the right thing to do, leaving most people to just go along with it for goodness’ sake. This also leads to the moral arbiter becoming unchecked as they escalate things towards moral absolutism, leading to anything being justified to get to the end goal.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." and this road to cancel culture for the good of society is starting to get painfully toasty.

With me being dyslexic my self, I would like to say Linus and Luke having normal social banter is not offensive to me one bit.

However, I find attempting to push for rules on how society should treat each group for the sake of "feels" an insult to my individual agency. It violates the very point of what the "good intentions" are meant to be, That being: treat all people fairly, and equally, no matter their traits.

[NumLock21]

Op needs to mind their own business, and let those who actually has dyslexic decided for themselves if they felt offended or bullied or not.

 

 

 

[Zusafek]

I'm dyslexic and full spectrum color blind. I don't care at all about a joke. It's part of life. Stop trying to be the politically correct police and deal with your own issues. If it offends you, stop listening and go somewhere else. 

 

Just like with tv, if you don't like it change the channel. I'm so sick and tired if this stuff. 

[Ravendarat]

Im sorry but I just dont agree with OP at all. (Everything said from here on is not directed at the op, more just general speak) Im am flat out sick of everyone feeling like we need to handle the world with white gloves. If you say anything you can find someone in the world that will be offended by it (someone will probably be offended by the term "white gloves"). If someone is speaking to you directly and says something you find offensive then fine, address it. But when someone is having a conversation that doesn't directly involve you (being a viewer is not being directly involved in the convo) then stop being a child and grow up. Friendly banter between two individuals is exactly that, between those two. If you observe that and it "offends" you then stop listening, thats it. That should be your only course of action. Crying that you are offended and want people to change just to suit you and your fragile feelings and ego is ridiculous. Grow up or piss off!

[Dedayog]

If we cannot make light of the flaws our friends and family have, we will end up taking things too seriously and run into the risk of everyone being... oh wait, it happened.

 

If people would just realize we are ALL flawed and human, things like this wouldn't cut so deep.

 

When you get older you may have a different view.  I grew up 4-eyed and nerdy, and I've worked hard to not let it effect my life.  I suggest you do the same, instead of hiding behind a 1 post username.

 

Working with people of various ethnicities and demographics, we all have our issues and even just the social status of mine vs my employees may cause friction. But if they're open minded and adult enough to be real about life... we get along just fine.

[NumLock21]

The problem with OP and those that fall into the same mindset is, they think they're doing something for the greater good, by forcing others to think and behave like them. In the end, the results are not what they want it to be, so they start throwing tantrums. This isn't the 1st time a topic like this has appeared on this forum. I'm glad majority of the members here on LTT don't cave into their nonsense and idiotic idealistic views of what they see as "right", and that everything else is wrong.

[Kawaii Koneko]

17 hours ago, DaniIsAGoddess said:

Following Linus' acknowledgement of a viewers distress over a dyslexia

Distress....

 

Increasing the stats of one's skin thickness would be a worthwhile investment.

 

17 hours ago, DaniIsAGoddess said:

When you make a joke based on something like dyslexia, you run into issues of individuals insecurities and normalising bullying. 

Was it directed at the viewer with dyslexia? No. Then it wasn't bullying and thus cannot normalize it. Context is everything.

 

A point invested in perception would be wise as well.

 

 

[Arika]

Christ, people have become so soft. We're getting to a point where we need to coddle people from the day they are born until they die so we don't hurt anyone's feelings. I fear what the world will look like when it's being run by this generation. 

[lewdicrous]

If you, or someone you know, get offended by something that wasn't directed at you and/or has nothing to do with you, then you need to be reminded that the world doesn't revolve around you.

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Christ, people have become so soft. We're getting to a point where we need to coddle people from the day they are born until they die so we don't hurt anyone's feelings. I fear what the world will look like when it's being run by this generation. 

 

13 hours ago, Mooshi said:

It's all perspective. I used to be self conscious about a lot of stuff and now care less about it. 

 

Bullies only have power because they're given it. Given them a gun without ammo and they just end up looking stupid. Don't be offended about jokes.

 

No, Linus neither makes someone better or worst. That change comes from within. We as a society need to get a grip on what's in our control instead of blaming others.

 

14 hours ago, DankDipstick said:

I am reminded of the ancient adage "sticks and stones might break my bones, but words will never hurt me".

i think theres an area in between lets let people say whatever they want without consequences and if theres anyway to interpret something as offensive then we should interpret it as such. now granted i think what OP posted is closer to the latter but saying that if someone gets offended at anything then its their fault is just victim blaming imo like if someone starts calling me slurs then sorry im not going to be too friendly with them

[Kawaii Koneko]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Christ, people have become so soft. We're getting to a point where we need to coddle people from the day they are born until they die so we don't hurt anyone's feelings. I fear what the world will look like when it's being run by this generation. 

And it has gotten to the point that just challenging a person's world view can lead to a mental meltdown, if not a violent outburst. People have become so indoctrinated in their little cocoons that not only can they not handle the fact that the world doesn't always meet their belief of how things should be but they view other opinions and even jokes as something that needs to be purged... just look what's happening in America right now.

 

My generation is going to ruin this country as they begin to take power.

 

12 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

 

 

i think theres an area in between lets let people say whatever they want without consequences and if theres anyway to interpret something as offensive then we should interpret it as such. now granted i think what OP posted is closer to the latter but saying that if someone gets offended at anything then its their fault is just victim blaming imo like if someone starts calling me slurs then sorry im not going to be too friendly with them

There is pretty much always a way to interpret something as offensive if you try. That's the problem. People are practically looking to be offended. 

 

Yes, you are correct that if someone starts calling your slur that you are the victim in that case and you taking offense would be justified. That is clearly not what happened in this case. Someone got offended over a joke directed at a friend/employee and the OP is taking offense that something was offensive to someone else. 

[lewdicrous]

19 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

i think theres an area in between lets let people say whatever they want without consequences and if theres anyway to interpret something as offensive then we should interpret it as such. now granted i think what OP posted is closer to the latter but saying that if someone gets offended at anything then its their fault is just victim blaming imo like if someone starts calling me slurs then sorry im not going to be too friendly with them

I think it's more to do with people getting offended on behalf of someone else, when the people talking to each other don't have any bad blood between them. At least that's the way I see it when it comes to Linus and Luke.

[Arika]

12 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

i think theres an area in between lets let people say whatever they want without consequences and if theres anyway to interpret something as offensive then we should interpret it as such. now granted i think what OP posted is closer to the latter but saying that if someone gets offended at anything then its their fault is just victim blaming imo like if someone starts calling me slurs then sorry im not going to be too friendly with them

Yes, there is an area between them, but it is never used, i wish it was, but every time i see something like this thread, it's always leaning into the "this COULD be offensive to someone, so i'm going to be offended" instead of looking at it from outside of their own little bubble and actually determining what the intention of the words was. The most annoying part is the "I can see how this could offend <group>, so i'm going to be offended for them, despite not being part of that group". 

 

For example, the girl that was accused of cultural appropriation for wearing a Chinese style dress to prom.

Twitter went absolutely savage to try and ruin her life.

 

Every little thing could be twisted to cause offense. People should not have to walk on egg shells just to make sure they don't have any hint of something being taken the wrong way. Cancel Culture and Trial by Social Media has thrived exactly because of this these mentalities.

[spartaman64]

16 minutes ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

And it has gotten to the point that just challenging a person's world view can lead to a mental meltdown, if not a violent outburst. People have become so indoctrinated in their little cocoons that not only can they not handle the fact that the world doesn't always meet their belief of how things should be but they view other opinions and even jokes as something that needs to be purged... just look what's happening in America right now.

 

My generation is going to ruin this country as they begin to take power.

 

There is pretty much always a way to interpret something as offensive if you try. That's the problem. People are practically looking to be offended. 

 

Yes, you are correct that if someone starts calling your slur that you are the victim in that case and you taking offense would be justified. That is clearly not what happened in this case. Someone got offended over a joke directed at a friend/employee and the OP is taking offense that something was offensive to someone else. 

i disagree. there are people like that in every generation like the older people who got offended at rock and roll etc and i think its a good thing that people are offended by more things as crazy as it sounds. i am a big twitch watcher and with the recent metoo thing going through twitch i see a lot of streamers that ive watched and talked to for years come out and tell their stories about twitch staff or other streamers abusing their positions to take advantage of them and some justice is being done. and i cant help but think even just a few years ago this would have just been brushed under the rug as them overreacting or even worse that its expected of the abusers to act in that way. like sure there are instances where people genuinely overreact but i think its better that people care too much than people not caring. apathy has never made the world a better place

 

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

Yes, there is an area between them, but it is never used, i wish it was, but every time i see something like this thread, it's always leaning into the "this COULD be offensive to someone, so i'm going to be offended" instead of looking at it from outside of their own little bubble and actually determining what the intention of the words was. The most annoying part is the "I can see how this could offend <group>, so i'm going to be offended for them, despite not being part of that group". 

 

For example, the girl that was accused of cultural appropriation for wearing a Chinese style dress to prom.

Twitter went absolutely savage to try and ruin her life.

 

Every little thing could be twisted to cause offense. People should not have to walk on egg shells just to make sure they don't have any hint of something being taken the wrong way. Cancel Culture and Trial by Social Media has thrived exactly because of this these mentalities.

yes thats an example of where people overreacted but i think its better than the previous generations where people would get "canceled" for their sexual orientation etc 

[Letgomyleghoe.]

Guys I think I might have a problem... I don't take offense from jokes.

Spoiler

Mods plz i'm just trying to make a joke about people being offended by jokes. Don't take offense.

Even on this forum I feel like if I post a semi edgy joke, not in status update, somebody will get offended and I will end up with a warning point.

[NumLock21]

59 minutes ago, Arika S said:

For example, the girl that was accused of cultural appropriation for wearing a Chinese style dress to prom.

When did this cultural appropriation nonsense started because it didn't exist back then. If someone was to dress up from another culture, they have the right to do so. It's those who have nothing better to do, and probably not even native to that culture, who are yelling out cultural appropriation.

 

[Dedayog]

2 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

When did this cultural appropriation nonsense started because it didn't exist back then. If someone was to dress up from another culture, they have the right to do so. It's those who have nothing better to do, and probably not even native to that culture, who are yelling out cultural appropriation.

 

Whatever happened to imitation is the highest form of flattery?

 

Also, Linus didn't say what the comment to demean anyone.  It was a light barb with a friend.  If that offends someone, they must lose their shit when people ACTUALLY lash out at someone.

 

I will grant you there is a line where jokes between two people who know each other well can be offensive to others, but we all need to please try to look at the brighter side of life, not the darker.

 

There's enough bad shit in the world without creating more over little things.

[Mooshi]

Just gonna point out the one thing that genuinely offends me is when I see others try to be offended for me. 

 

[FootFetish]

You cannot make a joke nowadays without someone feeling it is offended but it is actually not.

[YellowJersey]

I thought friendship was all about relentlessly teasing one another? That's certainly the case with all my friends.

[DaniIsAGoddess]

A couple things, 

i tried to make it clear but evidently failed. There is difference between a joke between friends and a joke in a show. I have no issue with how Linus jokes with his friends of camera, it's about context. If you say something that upsets someone it's reasonable for them to ask you not to say those sorts of things. As I said I don't think it says anything about Linus as a person. He didn't go out intending to hurt someone but unfortunately he did.

 

My motivation for writing this post was the response people had hearing about someone being genuinely upset over linus' joke who had dyslexia. I am not hear to say that anybody should be offended by what linus said. I watched the original wan show wheee the joke was made and didn't think anything of it. I am just trying to defend someone who was. 
 

I didn't talk about my personal relationship with dyslexia because I don't think anybody's views should be more or less valid based on a physical characteristic. Surely the goal is a society where we are all are treated equally regardless of sex gender sexuality ethnicity or disability. If that is what we want we need to acknowledge the individuality of members of a community that not all people are going to react the same. We should also be making sure these conversations are open to everyone and not require people to give their whole life story to prove they have the right to speak on the issue.

 

Addendum I: I have issues with people being offended by jokes as well, in this situation however, I don't believe it was understood to be a joke. This is why I stressed the importance of context and circumstance.

 

Addendum II: If I gave the impression that I thought Linus bullied anybody I am sorry, It was not my intent to do so. What I meant by the phrase 'normalise bullying' was without the context of Linus' and Lukes long friendship, which not all viewers of WAN would have, the joke could be seen, and was seen by some, as being rude to luke over his dyslexia. By having an influencer portraying this as okay it allows others to think its okay to be rude to somebody over their learning difficulty/disability. Not necessarily consciously but at some level it influences our behaviour.