What's the goal of Linux?

[BotDamian]

I've tried to use Linux as a daily driver many times and I swear by god I go crazy.

CentOS, Fedora, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Debian and other ones.

 

The main problem is that all programms are maintained by random people, if they decide "Eh... It's boring, I will do something else." then the programm dies, slowly and do they get paid for doing free software? I don't think so.

 

"It's easy to install, just apt install garbage" yeah, but they never say that you need to know which repos to add, but you can use snapd, and snapd doesn't add the icons to your menu, so you need a syslink, or you use flatpak, but flatpak doesn't have everything.

Best part, if you have Nvidia don't even try to use Linux, Fedora <deep breath>, debian is usabe same as the other debian garbage like ubuntu and the other crap.

 

I mean seriously, eveyone is doing a distro, it's damn worse than javascript libraries,  wtf is this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg

 

Why not just everyone working on one thing? If the change is very big, create a new thing, like how many damn package managers are there? pacman, apt, dnf, yum?

 

If the distro is good, getting something working is a nightmare... if the distro is garbage (ubuntu) everything works, bloated with garbage like windows but it works, nice.

 

If you wonder, yes I feel better now.

[Eggplant690]

Hey Trash talk somewhere else

 

[LIGISTX]

2 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

If the distro is good, getting something working is a nightmare... if the distro is garbage (ubuntu) everything works, bloated with garbage like windows but it works, nice.

 

If you wonder, yes I feel better now.

I run 4 VM's of ubuntu server on my homelab, next to a windows 10 LTSC vm and FreeNAS vm. Thats on an old i3 and 28 GB of RAM... I am not hitting any of the VM's hard, but I would't call ubuntu server all that bloated compared to windows. I have ran it on 768 mb of RAM with 0 issues.

 

All the other stuff, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  lol

[Master Disaster]

You clearly fail to see the point and you don't seem really interested either but just in case...

 

The point is that its license free, anybody can use it for their needs without having to worry about licenses. If it doesn't fit their needs then they're free to modify it to suit.

[aisle9]

The goal of Linux is to offer everyone a different OS tailored to suit their needs, instead of there being a single OS that you have to adapt to with Windows or Mac. You articulated the point pretty well without actually understanding it.

[manikyath]

the goal of free software (which includes linux) is right in the name: free.

and that does not mean 'free candy' free, but 'free speech' free.

 

i'd try to explain, but wikipedia does it better, if you care for having a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software

[mockedarche]

10 minutes ago, BotDamian said:

 

LEL nub LEL. No but really Linux isn't hard to use and I have a lot of trouble understanding how you did. I mean even Linus tech tips has been suggesting trying it out. Its not hard to set up. Something doesn't work google it and fix it. On Linux mint nvidia drivers auto installed and my wifi card was a easy install from a gui. Boom im done. Wanted vscode so I went to flathub and just clicked get and it worked with the built in app store. Everything on this distro has just worked. I'm not sure how you think Linux works but its not bad. Fixing things on Linux has always been 20 second things sometimes just a quick terminal line. I'm sorry but i've been on windows all my life until 2 weeks ago. It just works, its fast,  its light (mint xfce 550mb ram on boot), its powerful (runs all my demanding work fine and sometimes with cpu stuff even faster than windows), and sooo freaking CUSTOMIZABLE. I'm sorry it didn't work for you. I honestly though spent less time setting it up than windows with all the drivers and stuff.

[Nayr438]

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

The main problem is that all programms are maintained by random people, if they decide "Eh... It's boring, I will do something else." then the programm dies, slowly and do they get paid for doing free software? I don't think so.

Some do get paid either by donations or by the Linux Foundation, some just do it as a hobby and nothing else. If its popular enough, Usually it will get forked and continue on, possibly under a new name. But it's free software that you can do whatever you want with.

 

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

"It's easy to install, just apt install garbage" yeah, but they never say that you need to know which repos to add, but you can use snapd, and snapd doesn't add the icons to your menu, so you need a syslink, or you use flatpak, but flatpak doesn't have everything.

I think what your referring to is, repository hell, unfortunately a lot of Distributions suffer from it, I have however always found Ubuntu based Distro's to be the worst. This is a result of most Distributions not having a central user repository and relying on individuals to create and maintain repositories for unsupported packages.

The only Linux Community Based repository I know of is the Arch User Repository, however that also comes with its own caveat, you need to compile most of the packages.

This is where things like flatpak, and appimage come into play. I am really not even sure which one came first, but the goal was to have a universal format that you could download and either run or install regardless of what distro or packages you had. Unfortunately this still hasn't been very well adopted, but it has gotten better.

 

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

Best part, if you have Nvidia don't even try to use Linux, Fedora <deep breath>, debian is usabe same as the other debian garbage like ubuntu and the other crap.

NVIDIA requires a proprietary closed-source driver. This has nothing to do with Linux, but rather NVIDIA. AMD doesn't have this issue, due to the open source nature of AMD.

A lot of Distro's wont ship this driver due to Compatibility Concerns, Licensing issues, and the fact that it is Proprietary.

 

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

I mean seriously, eveyone is doing a distro, it's damn worse than javascript libraries,  wtf is this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg

Different Distro's tend to target different audiences. Arch for Example Targets experienced users who want to control every aspect of there system while being on bleeding edge packages. Manjaro targets users who are less experienced that want semi-bleeding edge packages. Ubuntu Targets Businesses and the Cloud, Fedora targets Developers and General Servers, Centos Targets Servers that depend on stability, Mint targets new users who want the advantage of a widely supported base distro (Ubuntu), etc...

These Distros vary by age of packages, how dependencies are handled, out of the box support, etc...

Maybe you want a bleeding edge cloud instance with the latest and greatest feature set, or maybe you want something somewhat outdated ( with security patches up to date ) for compatibility and stability, maybe you need something to deploy in your buisness that's simple and works out of the box, or maybe you need something that entirely focuses on Music production with its own special tweaks.

 

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

Why not just everyone working on one thing? If the change is very big, create a new thing, like how many damn package managers are there? pacman, apt, dnf, yum?

Because people think they can do it better. Say you have a couple of patches that extend the functionality of something. Maybe the original developer doesn't want it, Maybe it breaks something else, Maybe most of the community thinks its pointless. What do you do, you fork it, and build on it to your liking. Maybe it gets adopted over the other maybe it doesn't.  Now this does cause a segmentation problem, something Linux has suffered from for quite some time, however it has actually gotten much better over the years. a Good example though is snapd vs appimage vs flatpak. They all achieve similar goals, but in there own ways. As a result developers have to choose the one that suits there needs and one that they prefer, but then it comes down do your distro supporting it. I do however believe that a lot of distros are just starting to ship all 3. Some limit more of what a application can do in its container while some are more open. https://www.ostechnix.com/linux-package-managers-compared-appimage-vs-snap-vs-flatpak/

 

1 hour ago, BotDamian said:

If the distro is good, getting something working is a nightmare... if the distro is garbage (ubuntu) everything works, bloated with garbage like windows but it works, nice.

Depends on your definition of garbage and what hardware you have. Ubuntu has similar Goals to Windows however. A OS that is easy to deploy, with the greatest out of the box hardware support, and general applications they feel most users would expect whether its business, workstation, or a home user. A end result is a bloated system with better out of the box support.

[BotDamian]

Exactly it's for coders and sys admins, sadly I am one. I run multiple servers on CentOS, none of them runs on php all run nginx and nodejs/deno. It's so damn easy to maintain it, just ssh and no UI. One server is my testing server that's running since 2 years without ever being down. But installing like Fedora, you must add the repo to install ffmpeg to watch youtube, i also need to uninstall Pulse Audio that caused bugs and weird sounds. For example MongoDB Compass doesn't exist for Linux or at least I haven't managed it to start nor have I found any good info just crap ton results with the same issue.

 

Some people also don't understand that Ive said bad daily driver and not bad for servers.

[sp331yi]

PCLOS Trinity -- try it!  Free, as in 'free beer' plus Free as in Liberty to do as you please, rather than as Gates wants you to do.

Put in a new cheap SSD and let it install itself.  Forget 'buntus and mints. 

[Sauron]

12 hours ago, BotDamian said:

The main problem is that all programms are maintained by random people, if they decide "Eh... It's boring, I will do something else." then the programm dies, slowly and do they get paid for doing free software? I don't think so.

You could have google searched it if you cared about any of this instead of posting an incoherent rant. You'd have learned that many distribution developers and maintainers do, in fact, get paid for their work. Even those who don't will simply be replaced by someone else if they decide they don't want to work on it anymore, provided the community interest is there.

12 hours ago, BotDamian said:

Why not just everyone working on one thing?

[...]

if the distro is garbage (ubuntu)

The duality of man.

[GlasierXplor]

The way I see it is that if you are complaining about what you are complaining, then you don't understand the Linux community well enough. Those that were mentioned before all hold true - "Free Software", "Freedom of choice", etc.

 

e.g. If you don't like apt on Ubuntu, you can always switch to pacman on Arch, or yum on Fedora. Or ditch the package manager altogether and just use make.

 

From the demographics, Linux has always been a bit more server oriented, and I am vouching for the server use of Linux (If your whole network consists of only Linux servers AD integration is a nightmare to say the least).

[HotCheeseNachozAndBurritoz]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:47 PM, Caroline said:

It's free and all but just like you I've tried to use it and it's, pardon my french, a fucking nightmare.

Even something as simple as installing a browser requires you to know several commands, install dependencies, language packages, configure system files, etc. not the typical double click and install like in Windows or Mac

 

it's an OS for coders, developers or network admins that know how it works not for us that only want to browse the web, edit a text file or play a game, don't get me wrong it's a great OS in terms of stability and performance but unfortunately its complexity makes it exclusive for professionals or server managers.

I don't know how can you make installing a browser difficult in Linux unless you are trying to make your life difficult. In Ubuntu, just go to the browsers website and they have directions for adding the PPAs and it is just copy and paste. With Arch, it is a lot simpler. It is in the AUR 999 times out of 1000. If you are using Manjaro, installing a browser is as simple as opening Pamac and searching for it and then a couple of mouse clicks as compared to Windows where you go to the browser website, click download and then click "Yes, I consent to selling my data" a trillion times and be careful not to download any malware or unwanted software. And then you repeat the process each time there is an update in Windows. You do not need to know about dependencies. Pamac will take care of it for you in Manjaro without even a single command. Ubuntu based distros do require some understanding of how repos work but it is mostly just copy and paste in Ubuntu. Most Linux daily-driver users use the terminal because they want to. Unless you are using vanilla Arch or Gentoo, you do not need to know how to set up system files. Linux on the server is meant to be for those who know what they are doing. Linux on the desktop is a far more user-friendly experience.

[HotCheeseNachozAndBurritoz]

If Linux was all unified in one, we would not enjoy variety and it might be almost as boring as Windows or Mac OS. We have countless desktop environments and window managers in Linux that Linux powerusers are spoiled (in a good sense). I am using Qtile and I cannot imagine going back to Windows. There is nothing wrong with creating your own small project when there are larger projects. In fact, it is encouraged. That is the philosophy of open source. Freedom!

 

Also if Linux was all just one giant project, it would be a mess. Just imagine one DE instead of dozens. Imagine only 1 distro. Would Linux still be as great?

[pythonmegapixel]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:47 PM, Caroline said:

It's free and all but just like you I've tried to use it and it's, pardon my french, a fucking nightmare.

Even something as simple as installing a browser requires you to know several commands, install dependencies, language packages, configure system files, etc. not the typical double click and install like in Windows or Mac

On most Debian-based distros it's :

apt install firefox if you want Firefox

apt install chromium-browser if you want Chrome

Other distros have equivalents.

 

What's so hard?

[WereCatf]

On 7/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, BotDamian said:

Best part, if you have Nvidia don't even try to use Linux

Um, it takes literally 6 clicks and typing in one's password to install NVIDIA's drivers under Ubuntu. I don't know about the other distros, but a couple of clicks and typing in one's password certainly shouldn't be a difficult task for almost anyone. Except you, maybe.

 

On 7/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, BotDamian said:

Why not just everyone working on one thing? If the change is very big, create a new thing, like how many damn package managers are there? pacman, apt, dnf, yum?

People generally don't get paid to work on this stuff, so they go by what they happen to like and enjoy. Surprise, surprise: not everyone likes the same things or the same approach!

 

On 7/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, BotDamian said:

if the distro is garbage (ubuntu) everything works, bloated with garbage like windows but it works, nice.

I've used Ubuntu for a decade or more, I cannot agree with this odd claim.

 

On 7/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, BotDamian said:

but they never say that you need to know which repos to add

Kind of a weird claim here as well. All the apps I've had to add a repo for have listed all the instructions right there on their own website, even going so far as to include copypastable commands to quickly and easily install the app for multiple different distros. I can't really think of any apps off the top of my head that didn't have these instructions or wasn't already available in the default repos.

 

On 7/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, BotDamian said:

If you wonder, yes I feel better now.

Good for your health. If Linux ain't for you, then no point in trying to force it upon yourself, either.

[pythonmegapixel]

I don't really understand OP's point. Linux isn't for everybody; most Linux users will happily admit that Linux isn't for everybody. Some people like it, and you must respect that.

 

As for why, as you hyperbolically say,  "everybody is making their own distro," what's the alternative? Banning people from developing free software?

 

Also, if you're having issues with nVidia drivers, why not direct your complaints at nVidia? How do you expect the Linux community to support hardware from a manufacturer who refuses to provide drivers for the platform?

[WereCatf]

On 7/6/2020 at 2:31 AM, Nayr438 said:

AMD doesn't have this issue, due to the open source nature of AMD.

Nitpick: you do need AMD's proprietary drivers to make use of all of their features as well. For a typical desktop-user it doesn't matter that much, but e.g. AMF requires the proprietary drivers. I think ROCm also does.

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, WereCatf said:

Nitpick: you do need AMD's proprietary drivers to make use of all of their features as well. For a typical desktop-user it doesn't matter that much, but e.g. AMF requires the proprietary drivers. I think ROCm also does.

And OpenCL.

[WereCatf]

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

And OpenCL.

I only have an older Radeon R7, but it supports OpenCL even without the proprietary drivers. Has the situation changed with newer AMD GPUs, then?

[Master Disaster]

25 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

I only have an older Radeon R7, but it supports OpenCL even without the proprietary drivers. Has the situation changed with newer AMD GPUs, then?

You 100% sure about that? AFAIK Radeon GPUs have always required the GPU-Pro driver from AMD for OpenCL support (on Debian based distros at least).

 

I can say with 100% certainty that Blender running on Ubuntu 20.04 will not use OpenCL on my 5700XT without the GPU-Pro driver installed with the OpenCL installation switch.

 

My understanding of GPU-Pro is its a proprietary layer that runs on top of the open source driver since it seems to require the open source driver be installed along side it for it to function.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

You 100% sure about that? AFAIK Radeon GPUs have always required the GPU-Pro driver from AMD for OpenCL support (on Debian based distros at least).

Yeah, I just install mesa-opencl-icd and from there on it works just fine. One can also verify details with clinfo.

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I can say with 100% certainty that Blender running on Ubuntu 20.04 will not use OpenCL on my 5700XT without the GPU-Pro driver installed with the OpenCL installation switch.

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Yeah, I just install mesa-opencl-icd and from there on it works just fine. One can also verify details with clinfo.

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

Interesting, I had no idea that package existed. Chances are that will also work for me too but when I discovered the issue in Blender I hit Google and was suggested to use GPU-Pro.

[WereCatf]

Just now, Master Disaster said:

Interesting, I had no idea that package existed. Chances are that will also work for me too but when I discovered the issue in Blender I hit Google and was suggested to use GPU-Pro.

Well, you won't lose much, if you try it and it doesn't work Then again, since you already have the proprietary drivers installed, I don't know if there's much point other than satisfying one's curiosity. If you do try, mind letting me know as well, just to satisfy my own curiosity?

[Master Disaster]

6 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Well, you won't lose much, if you try it and it doesn't work Then again, since you already have the proprietary drivers installed, I don't know if there's much point other than satisfying one's curiosity. If you do try, mind letting me know as well, just to satisfy my own curiosity?

I was just contemplating whether to try it or not. The GPU-Pro driver leaves a nice uninstall script so it honestly wouldn't take very long to test.

 

I'll give it a go after I take my dog for a walk. It would be helpful to know, would save me time in the future.