Huawei's first ARM-based desktop sees the light of day.

[Results45]

Where there's Windows, there's harmony*.

 

Huawei announce their in-house Kungpeng 920 CPU and Ascend 910 GPU for both Data center & HPC markets (now it seems consumers too) last year and the hands-on video below seems to be our first real-life peak at one of their first ARM-based desktops:

 

Spoiler

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https://www.tomshardware.com/news/huawei-powered-desktop-pc-tested-eight-core-7nm-kunpeng-920-processor-pcie-40

 

As Paul from Tom's Hardware points out, the hardware and theoretical performance may be on-par with competitors, but the current performance of the system is awful even when running basic software like video playback. This shows that Huawei and it's partners still have a lot of catching up to do in the likes of building a robust developer base as well as better software support and optimization.

 

My guess it that this is supposed to be a dev/early-adopters' machine since there's a CD-drive and seemingly only support for PCIe 3.0 and Linux ~ all at an affordable price of 7500 yuan ($1000 USD).

Edited July 5, 2020 by Results45
*GET IT? ARM on Windows 10, ARM on Harmony OS.

[mbntr]

That is something I would never buy, compatibility is crap, CPU is not upgradeable and slow relative to its x86 counterparts.

Emulating x86 is not fun, I have tried it installing full windows 10 on a rasperry pi, that albeit not fast can be quite snappy when using linux, and the results were... underwhelming.

in case of that huawei cpu, it will have to emulate x86, because of the rather lacking arm support in basically anything, and even running native code it will get steamed by something like an i3 10100 or an R3 3300x because of the clock speed and IPC advantage

[igormp]

Seems good enough for basic web browser usage. Might do well as simple office machines.

 

I thought it'd be using their Harmony OS, but it seems to be using some weird linux distro. Makes sense since their own OS wouldn't have any apps otherwise.

 

I guess its target market would be similar to the one from Chromebooks.

 

24 minutes ago, mbntr said:

That is something I would never buy, compatibility is crap, CPU is not upgradeable and slow relative to its x86 counterparts.

Emulating x86 is not fun, I have tried it installing full windows 10 on a rasperry pi, that albeit not fast can be quite snappy when using linux, and the results were... underwhelming.

in case of that huawei cpu, it will have to emulate x86, because of the rather lacking arm support in basically anything, and even running native code it will get steamed by something like an i3 10100 or an R3 3300x because of the clock speed and IPC advantage

I can't see why one would need to emulate x86, for most regular consumers a web browser should be more than enough. Also, I can't see why they'd need Windows at all, and that's certainly not something Huawei event wants.

[williamcll]

Eh, this looks very niche. I think HP's PC with their VIA-ish Chinese CPU works better in this case.

[Soppro]

Without any software support this is no doubt a failure, but interesting nonetheless following in the footsteps of Apple's ARM transition. ARM in laptops/desktops is going to be really interesting

[Loote]

It is what, 70% of A12 performance? It should be enough for everyday use if they don't end up bottlenecked by some problems. Would those be socketed? ARM CPUs still gain a lot of performance every year or two so that'd be cool. The fastest RaspberryPi is I think 3/4 times slower(single/multi core) than Kirin 980 and I expect those desktops to be even faster than that, what's more Linux already has has plenty of apps compiled for ARM, I'm starting to think that it can work.

[Doobeedoo]

Ayyy

[Drama Lama]

ARM to Intel 

[Fasterthannothing]

Welp if it's not just Apple that will be pushing arm in the near future then RIP Intel and AMD

[Results45]

16 hours ago, Drama Lama said:

ARM to Intel 

 

Boomer, ok?

 

13 hours ago, Shorty88jr said:

Welp if it's not just Apple that will be pushing arm in the near future then RIP Intel and AMD

 

Wait for it.........Exynos 4600Y + Navi 5.

 

Assuming their upcoming mobile SoC with RDNA takes the smartphone world by storm, I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung and AMD go deeper in their joint-venture and start releasing beefed-up ARM APUs for foldables and "always-on" ultrabooks. AMD provides mobile graphics light-years ahead of the competition (letting the apples rot) and improves on Samsung's custom ARM core designs by drawing from Ryzen or Threadripper IP and Samsung does all the fancy marketing and supplies the chips from it's fabs. Win-win, right?

 

Hell, if the performance gap gets good enough even Microsoft might ditch Qualcomm for AMD-Samsung instead.

[Lord Vile]

8 hours ago, Shorty88jr said:

Welp if it's not just Apple that will be pushing arm in the near future then RIP Intel and AMD

Remember the rule, Apple does then everyone else copies.

[Drama Lama]

Actually AMD is already using ARM tech in their processors

just for some security authentication stuff 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Remember the rule, Apple does then everyone else copies.

This isn't the first ARM PC by a long shot and also this actually exists now. Remember the rule, if Apple does something somebody else did it first (just usually worse).

[Lord Vile]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This isn't the first ARM PC by a long shot and also this actually exists now. Remember the rule, if Apple does something somebody else did it first (just usually worse).

Would count doing it properly as first tbh not half arsing it. 

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Would count doing it properly as first tbh not half arsing it. 

True but Apple isn't the pioneering company people like to make them out to be, with this Apple literally sat and watched as others put hard work in to creating high performance ARM CPU designs and the supporting software for those so see if it was even viable in the first place. Amazon has done more to get ARM in to the general computing ecosystem than Apple has thus far. Everything everyone does is complimentary work and it's all important but Apple is actually a very risk adverse company, it may not seem like it but they don't do anything without years of planning and market research but when they do decide to do something they will stick to it even if it's hard and doesn't have a good start, rarely do they just actually give up on something they do but it might take a few revisions to get it right.

[Lord Vile]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

True but Apple isn't the pioneering company people like to make them out to be, with this Apple literally sat and watched as others put hard work in to creating high performance ARM CPU designs and the supporting software for those so see if it was even viable in the first place. Amazon has done more to get ARM in to the general computing ecosystem than Apple has thus far. Everything everyone does is complimentary work and it's all important but Apple is actually a very risk adverse company, it may not seem like it but they don't do anything without years of planning and market research but when they do decide to do something they will stick to it even if it's hard and doesn't have a good start, rarely do they just actually give up on something they do but it might take a few revisions to get it right.

Pretty sure Apple have had the best consumer ARM chips for the last 10 years and software since the iphone debuted. Though i'm feeling cheeky so I'm gonna say they've been writing software for ARM since the Newton in the 90's.

 

Agree with the last point. the apple watch was pretty much a dev kit until the series 3. 

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Pretty sure Apple have had the best consumer ARM chips for the last 10 years and software since the iphone debuted. Though i'm feeling cheeky so I'm gonna say they've been writing software for ARM since the Newton in the 90's.

That doesn't matter, a mobile chip is not something that can be used in a PC and even considering doing it is only possible by way of waiting so long mobile chips have so much compute power they are wasted in the devices they are put in. Neither is Apple going to be straight porting their mobile chips in to desktops and laptops, they are smarter than that.

 

Other companies for years have been making high performance ARM CPUs, way faster than anything Apple has, for server and high performance workstation usage and with that they have also contributed greatly to the software ecosystems to allow it to even work. Just because the companies that have already been doing it are in a different market segment to what Apple will be targeting doesn't mean their efforts haven't contributed towards that market. All these companies contribute to so many different software projects and industry consortiums even when they are not directly involved with products of their own in the market, because you can have a vested interest in something so what you need is implemented so you can release products.

[RejZoR]

I wonder how these ARM based devices compare to something like Intel Atom x5 Z8350. I mean, if Windows on it runs about the same, I can see it happen. Hell, I might even be interested in it. I always had this admiration for Atom CPU's for some reason. Would be cool to run Windows on ARM hybrid netbook. It's just that from what I've seen, ARM based devices are anything but cheap. Which, with Atom CPU's, they actually are. Netbook with that Z8350 was a bit over 300€ iirc. I mostly use it to watch Youtube and movies in the evening on it and battery lasts forever and I can even charge it from powerbank since it uses USB port to charge. It's a cute little toy.

[Lord Vile]

30 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That doesn't matter, a mobile chip is not something that can be used in a PC and even considering doing it is only possible by way of waiting so long mobile chips have so much compute power they are wasted in the devices they are put in. Neither is Apple going to be straight porting their mobile chips in to desktops and laptops, they are smarter than that.

 

Other companies for years have been making high performance ARM CPUs, way faster than anything Apple has, for server and high performance workstation usage and with that they have also contributed greatly to the software ecosystems to allow it to even work. Just because the companies that have already been doing it are in a different market segment to what Apple will be targeting doesn't mean their efforts haven't contributed towards that market. All these companies contribute to so many different software projects and industry consortiums even when they are not directly involved with products of their own in the market, because you can have a vested interest in something so what you need is implemented so you can release products.

Well the Dev kit is an A12X? The A series chips have been a waste in mobile devices for a while now and beat intel laptop chips. imagine what they can do with a 15W power limit instead of 5 and an increased package size.

 

Other companies have but not for consumer applications. Think the supercomputer that took 1st on the Top500 is ARM based but that's not what I'd call a consumer product.

[leadeater]

13 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Well the Dev kit is an A12X? The A series chips have been a waste in mobile devices for a while now and beat intel laptop chips. imagine what they can do with a 15W power limit instead of 5 and an increased package size.

Performance isn't linear with power but I would imagine Apple is doing a bit more than some minor tweaks for the actual CPUs going in to the retail products when they get released.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Other companies have but not for consumer applications. Think the supercomputer that took 1st on the Top500 is ARM based but that's not what I'd call a consumer product.

ARM isn't just in super computer clusters, you'll find it in scientific workstations and smaller server deployments. Embedded devices from ultra low power to a big higher power like video surveillance. But really what matters is not what is using it but the software contributions because of those. You wouldn't have OpenCL and AI libraries working well on ARM, you wouldn't have GPU drivers from AMD or Nvidia, companies like AutoDesk and Adobe wouldn't even consider putting development time in to ARM versions of their applications if it wasn't for all these past efforts showing that it is not just possible but can be done with decent performance. Apple is not a solo player here, they can do their own stuff but even they rely on others and their contributions even if they are just porting across other peoples work, so Apple can't just move to ARM and expect every software company who have products with Mac OS support to just go along with it just on their word alone with no evidence it's a good idea in the first place.

 

Good ideas die when you are not able to show that it's practically possible to achieve.

[Kisai]

17 hours ago, leadeater said:

This isn't the first ARM PC by a long shot and also this actually exists now. Remember the rule, if Apple does something somebody else did it first (just usually worse).

Eh, maybe. Depends on the time scale. Remember what ARM stands for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes , 1987

 

If you go look at the Apple Newton, it had ARM parts in it, from 1992.

 

So yeah, Apple may have put out the first portable ARM computer device (Apple Newton 1993, ARM610), but it was not the first ARM computer. Pretty much everything with an ARM chip in it today owes it's existence to Apple.

 

So if you're talking about desktop, as in not a portable device, and not a touch-screen device, the first ARM desktop with an ARM chip in it would be the BBC Micro, but there are plenty of other ARM devices out there that would qualify as an ARM desktop like the Nvidia Shield and Rasperry Pi devices.

 

But I doubt we're ever going to see a "ARM" desktop that is as interchangeable as the x86-64 platform. Locked bootloaders, nothing resembling a BIOS, and such.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

So if you're talking about desktop, as in not a portable device, and not a touch-screen device, the first ARM desktop with an ARM chip in it would be the BBC Micro, but there are plenty of other ARM devices out there that would qualify as an ARM desktop like the Nvidia Shield and Rasperry Pi devices.

Well of course we are talking about desktop computers, but also to a large extent laptops as well. ARM in anything other than those two things is highly common and wide spread so there wouldn't be a need for discussion around it. But you missed of the very thing you linked, all of the Acron PCs.

 

ARM on those platforms didn't go anywhere directly due to software platform support, other companies went in other directions and supported other things so ARM went away in that market. It's the domino effect, take away just one important domino and the whole train stops, and if it's a very large domino set it can take a bloody long time to set them all back up.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Well of course we are talking about desktop computers, but also to a large extent laptops as well. ARM in anything other than those two things is highly common and wide spread so there wouldn't be a need for discussion around it. But you missed of the very thing you linked, all of the Acron PCs.

 

ARM on those platforms didn't go anywhere directly due to software platform support, other companies went in other directions and supported other things so ARM went away in that market. It's the domino effect, take away just one important domino and the whole train stops, and if it's a very large domino set it can take a bloody long time to set them all back up.

I thought it was obvious when I linked directly to the article. The BBC Micro is the previous machine which had the ARM chip as a second processor. The Archimedes is the first with it as the main CPU, and was also a 32-bit cpu in a time when everything was 8-bit or 16-bit.

 

Apparently that ARM250 was the first SoC, so it can be thought of as the ancestor to the Raspberry Pi.

[Lord Vile]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Performance isn't linear with power but I would imagine Apple is doing a bit more than some minor tweaks for the actual CPUs going in to the retail products when they get released.

 

ARM isn't just in super computer clusters, you'll find it in scientific workstations and smaller server deployments. Embedded devices from ultra low power to a big higher power like video surveillance. But really what matters is not what is using it but the software contributions because of those. You wouldn't have OpenCL and AI libraries working well on ARM, you wouldn't have GPU drivers from AMD or Nvidia, companies like AutoDesk and Adobe wouldn't even consider putting development time in to ARM versions of their applications if it wasn't for all these past efforts showing that it is not just possible but can be done with decent performance. Apple is not a solo player here, they can do their own stuff but even they rely on others and their contributions even if they are just porting across other peoples work, so Apple can't just move to ARM and expect every software company who have products with Mac OS support to just go along with it just on their word alone with no evidence it's a good idea in the first place.

 

Good ideas die when you are not able to show that it's practically possible to achieve.

Obviously not but with 3x the resources you can push it a lot further. 
 

I know but these aren’t consumer products they’re professional or industry products. 
 

Software will follow MacOS because money. It might cost Adobe a bit to put it on ARM Macs but they already have heavily cut down versions of lightroom, PS and premiere on iOS. 
 

 

Apple generally is a trend setter because software doesn’t want to miss out on the money the platform brings in. Apples gone to ARM so a lot of software will get ported. Might actually make Windows for ARM viable too. 

[Orfieus]

I already have the Canadian government spying on me and the US government spying on me, with Huawei the Chinese government will make 3 and I'm a firm believer 3's a crowd